Marinatto: method to his madness, or madness to his method?...

[epark88]

About JM's 'period, end-of-sentence!' comments on Pitt/Cuse staying the full 27 months: is it possible that he wants to keep them around long enough to get a feel for how much a new Big East TV deal would be worth with them still in the fold, along with the new additions?

Who's to say that Comcast won't still make a break-the-bank offer next November provided the two schools stick around? If that were to happen (along with the rumored 'seperate FB commish' plan), there might be some serious reneging and backtracking going on in CNY and WPA - and it's not like that precedent hasn't been set already with TCU.

Either that, or it could just be plain old-fashioned spite, unfortunately.

I've lowered my expectations of Marinatto a while ago. Sadly, I don't think he has a vision for the Big East that goes beyond Woonsocket or Cranston...

 

[Section205]

Hey, as BE commish, he's just enforcing the BE by-laws. aka...the latter thought of your argument (Either that, or it could just be plain old-fashioned spite, unfortunately).

 

[HartbeatHusky]

It would desperation and stumbling into a miracle if that is what he is trying to do. I've suggested it is possible a number of times and still think it is. I don't think it's going to happen but also don't see how any of the schools that might leave are able to do so before the new TV deal is discussed without the complete dissolution of the BE FB conference but who really knows.

 

[UConnSportsGuy]

It isn't spite. It isn't some master plan. I don't get why you all don't get this on the 27 month requirement for Syrapitt.

In order to remain a BCS AQ conference, you need to have 8 programs who have played together for at least 2 consecutive years. The only way to get that for the Big East is to have at least 2 new teams establish themselves for the next 2 years with Syrapitt still in the conference. If we let Syrapitt leave the conference next year, then we would immediately lose the BCS AQ for next year.

That is why the 27 month requirement exists--to protect the conference. It isn't out of spite or revenge, or some masterful plan.

I just don't get why so many of you just can't comprehend this!!!!

 

[Nostical]

He might have been better served without those period-end of sentence comments. Should have simply said our by-laws are clear. I never like saying "never". It leads to credibility problems or locks you into a "can't lose face" intransigence that helps no-one.

 

[businesslawyer]

It isn't spite. It isn't some master plan. I don't get why you all don't get this on the 27 month requirement for Syrapitt.

In order to remain a BCS AQ conference, you need to have 8 programs who have played together for at least 2 consecutive years. The only way to get that for the Big East is to have at least 2 new teams establish themselves for the next 2 years with Syrapitt still in the conference. If we let Syrapitt leave the conference next year, then we would immediately lose the BCS AQ for next year.

That is why the 27 month requirement exists--to protect the conference. It isn't out of spite or revenge, or some masterful plan.

I just don't get why so many of you just can't comprehend this!!!!

Because they'd rather discuss Marinatto's incompetence and aren't thrilled to consider facts that might limit the discussion. Hasn't that been made clear?

 

[HartbeatHusky]

It isn't spite. It isn't some master plan. I don't get why you all don't get this on the 27 month requirement for Syrapitt.

In order to remain a BCS AQ conference, you need to have 8 programs who have played together for at least 2 consecutive years. The only way to get that for the Big East is to have at least 2 new teams establish themselves for the next 2 years with Syrapitt still in the conference. If we let Syrapitt leave the conference next year, then we would immediately lose the BCS AQ for next year.

That is why the 27 month requirement exists--to protect the conference. It isn't out of spite or revenge, or some masterful plan.

I just don't get why so many of you just can't comprehend this!!!!

I do comprehend that. I don't understand why you can't comprehend that there may be other results of it as well though. They will be in the conference when the next TV deal is negotiated. Numbers will be tossed around. Will it be enough to change anything? Who knows. You know that it won't, but I don't. So while you already know the outcome, I have to wait and see.

 

[epark88]

It isn't spite. It isn't some master plan. I don't get why you all don't get this on the 27 month requirement for Syrapitt.

In order to remain a BCS AQ conference, you need to have 8 programs who have played together for at least 2 consecutive years. The only way to get that for the Big East is to have at least 2 new teams establish themselves for the next 2 years with Syrapitt still in the conference. If we let Syrapitt leave the conference next year, then we would immediately lose the BCS AQ for next year.

That is why the 27 month requirement exists--to protect the conference. It isn't out of spite or revenge, or some masterful plan.

I just don't get why so many of you just can't comprehend this!!!!

Well I get it now, which is why I started the thread in the first place. Um, thank you?

And for the record, I DO think JM is in over his head - he got Peter-Principled into this gig. I dunno, maybe Jeff Hathaway can now give him pointers on how to hang onto the job with a vise-like grip for a few extra years...

 

[BlueMAB]

I do comprehend that. I don't understand why you can't comprehend that there may be other results of it as well though. They will be in the conference when the next TV deal is negotiated. Numbers will be tossed around. Will it be enough to change anything? Who knows. You know that it won't, but I don't. So while you already know the outcome, I have to wait and see.

The numbers were huge for the contract we just turned down, why would anything change? We were poised for a huge increase, and Quse/Pitt left anyway. Unless you're one of the few crazies who thinks the new big east will be worth more than the new acc, there is no way they stay. On top of that, TCU doesn't have to wait 27 months, but they will be paying $5 million exit fee. Quse/Pitt are not going to dump $20 million each to stay in the big east. It's just not happening.

 

[freescooter]

bl loves to defend Marrinatto. Some of us don't and think he is over his head and was a horrible choice. the evidence is that such a view is shared by at least some of the schools. Can you imagine Dave Gavitt being informed by ESPN while watching a game at an ACC stadium that Pitt & Syracuse where heading for the door...to the ACC? Can you imagene Swofford being in that situation? Or Delaney? This was a longtime assistant who showed why he was an assitant. He had so little respect from the Chairman of the Big East, Nordenberg, with whom prresumably he works on a regular basis, that he was caught completely off guard and publicly embarrassed by this move. Just like he was on the Villanova upgrade where he was putting out hte word it was a done deal only to have it stopped by the football members.

 

[businesslawyer]

bl loves to defend Marrinatto. Some of us don't and think he is over his head and was a horrible choice. the evidence is that such a view is shared by at least some of the schools. Can you imagine Dave Gavitt being informed by ESPN while watching a game at an ACC stadium that Pitt & Syracuse where heading for the door...to the ACC? Can you imagene Swofford being in that situation? Or Delaney? This was a longtime assistant who showed why he was an assitant. He had so little respect from the Chairman of the Big East, Nordenberg, with whom prresumably he works on a regular basis, that he was caught completely off guard and publicly embarrassed by this move. Just like he was on the Villanova upgrade where he was putting out hte word it was a done deal only to have it stopped by the football members.

No, actually. I've said that I don't think he was up to the task. What I oppose is the villianization of a guy who, the best we know, each and every football school supported when he was elected President and has been holding a losing hand of cards from day one. What I oppose is pretending that if we had a smarter commissioner this would all go away, instead of recognizing that this is about the lack of market power of our member institutions and that the only way it gets saved is by the fanbases, including us, opening our wallets.

What I oppose, in short, is using a strawman to avoid accepting reality.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

The numbers were huge for the contract we just turned down, why would anything change? We were poised for a huge increase, and Quse/Pitt left anyway. Unless you're one of the few crazies who thinks the new big east will be worth more than the new acc, there is no way they stay. On top of that, TCU doesn't have to wait 27 months, but they will be paying $5 million exit fee. Quse/Pitt are not going to dump $20 million each to stay in the big east. It's just not happening.

That is not true. The numbers were not huge. We still would have been last. It was a huge improvement but that is a huge distinction that must be made. It was ESPN's first offer and we still would have been the poorest BCS league. The ACC's contract in undervalued and will remain so even when Cuse and Pitt join. The new Big East including Cuse and Pitt would definitely be able to get more than what the ACC has if taken to the open market. It's the whole reason why the ACC did what they did.

 

[BlueMAB]

That is not true. The numbers were not huge. We still would have been last. It was a huge improvement but that is a huge distinction that must be made. It was ESPN's first offer and we still would have been the poorest BCS league. The ACC's contract in undervalued and will remain so even when Cuse and Pitt join. The new Big East including Cuse and Pitt would definitely be able to get more than what the ACC has if taken to the open market. It's the whole reason why the ACC did what they did.

What's not true? The Big East was going to get a billion dollar contract. I said we were poised for a huge increase...we were. What is untrue about that? The numbers were absolutely huge considering the value of the league. Maybe we could have gotten more, but that isn't the point. The point is we weren't ever going to do better than any other BCS conference. That is why Quse/Pitt bolted.

We still would have been the poorest BCS league for a reason. I get that nobody likes it, but the fact is, the Big East is crumbling because it is the least valuable BCS football league. Maybe we deserved more, but we didn't, don't, and arguably never will, deserve more than the other conferences as they are currently situated.

And I said the new big east isn't going to get more than the NEW ACC, not the old ACC. And if you think it is, with all due respect, you're nucking futs. $40 million, and the fact pigs will fly before the new big east gets a bigger contract than the NEW acc, are the reasons any thought that Quse/Pitt might stick around are insane.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

What's not true? The Big East was going to get a billion dollar contract. I said we were poised for a huge increase...we were. What is untrue about that? The numbers were absolutely huge considering the value of the league. Maybe we could have gotten more, but that isn't the point. The point is we weren't ever going to do better than any other BCS conference. That is why Quse/Pitt bolted.

We still would have been the poorest BCS league for a reason. I get that nobody likes it, but the fact is, the Big East is crumbling because it is the least valuable BCS football league. Maybe we deserved more, but we didn't, don't, and arguably never will, deserve more than the other conferences as they are currently situated.

And I said the new big east isn't going to get more than the NEW ACC, not the old ACC. And if you think it is, with all due respect, you're nucking futs. $40 million, and the fact pigs will fly before the new big east gets a bigger contract than the NEW acc, are the reasons any thought that Quse/Pitt might stick around are insane.

This isn't just speculation I cooked up. It's been reported multiple places that the Big East, prior to the loss of Cuse and Pitt, taken to the open market could definitely have eclipsed the ACC contract. That you don't want to believe that is fine and that you think it's nuts is fine but I'm not pulling it out of my ass. You disagree with all of the industry folks who speculated that the BE was about to surpass the ACC and who felt the ACC had a bad deal that was undervalued and I happen to agree with those sources. Don't act like those of us who read that and agree with it are just making up though.

 

[businesslawyer]

This isn't just speculation I cooked up. It's been reported multiple places that the Big East, prior to the loss of Cuse and Pitt, taken to the open market could definitely have eclipsed the ACC contract. That you don't want to believe that is fine and that you think it's nuts is fine but I'm not pulling it out of my ass. You disagree with all of the industry folks who speculated that the BE was about to surpass the ACC and who felt the ACC had a bad deal that was undervalued and I happen to agree with those sources. Don't act like those of us who read that and agree with it are just making up though.

The truth was somewhat in the middle here. While ESPN did not offer the Big EAst ACC numbers, there was speculation in the media that, because of the timing of the contract and the possibility of a bidding war, the Big East's contract might surpass the ACC's because of the timing difference. That is different, however, than concluding that the Big East was worth more to the market than the ACC was. No one was arguing that, if someone was bidding on both properties, that the ACC package wasn't worth more per team than the Big East package. Thus, long term, there was never a point where anyone concluded that a Big East school would earn more TV dollars than an ACC school.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

The truth was somewhat in the middle here. While ESPN did not offer the Big EAst ACC numbers, there was speculation in the media that, because of the timing of the contract and the possibility of a bidding war, the Big East's contract might surpass the ACC's because of the timing difference. That is different, however, than concluding that the Big East was worth more to the market than the ACC was. No one was arguing that, if someone was bidding on both properties, that the ACC package wasn't worth more per team than the Big East package. Thus, long term, there was never a point where anyone concluded that a Big East school would earn more TV dollars than an ACC school.

Timing is a factor in determining worth though. The fact that we would have been the only property on the open market for the next decade does in essense make us more valuable to the market than an ACC that is already locked in for 12 years.

 

[BlueMAB]

This isn't just speculation I cooked up. It's been reported multiple places that the Big East, prior to the loss of Cuse and Pitt, taken to the open market could definitely have eclipsed the ACC contract. That you don't want to believe that is fine and that you think it's nuts is fine but I'm not pulling it out of my ass. You disagree with all of the industry folks who speculated that the BE was about to surpass the ACC and who felt the ACC had a bad deal that was undervalued and I happen to agree with those sources. Don't act like those of us who read that and agree with it are just making up though.

You're not understanding my posts at all.

I'm saying the new big east (whoever we add) isn't going to get more than the new acc (with Pitt/Quse), and therefore any talk of Pitt/Quse coming back is crazy. Despite continuing to disagree with me, you haven't posted a single thing that disputes that.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

You're not understanding my posts at all.

I'm saying the new big east (whoever we add) isn't going to get more than the new acc (with Pitt/Quse), and therefore any talk of Pitt/Quse coming back is crazy. Despite continuing to disagree with me, you haven't posted a single thing that disputes that.

I agree with that. If you are saying a New BE without Pitt and Cuse will never be as valuable as the new ACC with Pitt and Cuse that is obviously a fact. That is not what I was asserting at all though. A new BE with Pitt and Cuse would have almost surely made more money than the ACC will make with their current TV deal though and I'm not sure you agree or disagree with that based on your posts. The new ACC with Pitt and Cuse will get about $15m per school per year for the next ten years and I think a new BE with Pitt and Cuse would have made more over the same period only due to the fact that the ACC is under contract and the BE would have been taken to the open market.

If you think that ESPN is going to give the ACC a huge increase for adding Pitt and Cuse well you are nucking futs my friend. Swofford will have to take them to arbitration and will still lose.

 

[BlueMAB]

I agree with that. If you are saying a New BE without Pitt and Cuse will never be as valuable as the new ACC with Pitt and Cuse that is obviously a fact. That is not what I was asserting at all though.

That's what would have to happen for them to come back.

They aren't paying $20 million each to come back to a conference that won't be worth more than the one they have to pay $20 million to leave.

 

[UConnSportsGuy]

Well I get it now, which is why I started the thread in the first place. Um, thank you?

Sorry epark88...my rant wasn't directed specifically at you. It was more directed at the board in general. We have gone over the 27 month thing here many times...and 90% of the people here still don't get it despite it clearly being laid out for them.

Sorry if it seems like I took my frustration out on you specifically...that wasn't my intention.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

That's what would have to happen for them to come back.

They aren't paying $20 million each to come back to a conference that won't be worth more than the one they have to pay $20 million to leave.

Question, do you think the ACC is going to get more than a modest increase from ESPN for the duration of their current contract?

 

[BlueMAB]

Question, do you think the ACC is going to get more than a modest increase from ESPN for the duration of their current contract?

I don't know.

But I know they'll get more than the Big East gets, and I know they are far better positioned to retain their value if they lose 1 or 2 members to another conference than the Big East is.

For those reasons, and others already stated, any talk of Pitt/Quse coming back is crazy.

I'd love nothing more than to be wrong about that.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

I don't know.

But I know they'll get more than the Big East gets, and I know they are far better positioned to retain their value if they lose 1 or 2 members to another conference than the Big East is.

For those reasons, and others already stated, any talk of Pitt/Quse coming back is crazy.

I'd love nothing more than to be wrong about that.

OK, fair enough. I don't really disagree with most of that. I don't agree that what the ACC will get short term by adding Pitt and Cuse would definitely be more than the BE could've gotten had they not left and the BE expanded but we will most likely never find out the answers so it's all a pointless excercise.

 

[BlueMAB]

OK, fair enough. I don't really disagree with most of that. I don't agree that what the ACC will get short term by adding Pitt and Cuse would definitely be more than the BE could've gotten had they not left and the BE expanded but we will most likely never find out the answers so it's all a pointless excercise.

We'll never find out, but the presidents of Sara/Pitt had far more information regarding what they would get if they stayed, and what they would get if they left, and the left.

That tells me all I need to know. Maybe it was a mistake, maybe not, but media reports don't give us more info than what the decision makers already have, and their decision speaks volumes.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

We'll never find out, but the presidents of Sara/Pitt had far more information regarding what they would get if they stayed, and what they would get if they left, and the left.

That tells me all I need to know. Maybe it was a mistake, maybe not, but media reports don't give us more info than what the decision makers already have, and their decision speaks volumes.

I think the stability and not having to fight the basketball schools who have their own agenda in order to make decisions for the football conference are probably even more important than the money in the short term. Long term the ACC is more stable even if they could have made more in the BE after the next contract.