Lynx @ Sparks - 10/01/17

[eebmg]

The Sparks drafted Jonquel Jones, then traded her to Connecticut. I wonder if they wish they had kept her, given the success she had last year?

They got GRAY and Sims (using the draft pick) so I would say it is one of those trades that benefit both teams.

 

[Carnac]

They got GRAY and Sims (using the draft pick) so I would say it is one of those trades that benefit both teams.

Since BOTH of these players became starters, it's hard to argue that trade. Two for one is not a bad deal when both players contribute as much as these two did.

 

[nwhoopfan]

The Sparks drafted Jonquel Jones, then traded her to Connecticut. I wonder if they wish they had kept her, given the success she had last year?

Would she have had the same kind of season playing for the Sparks? Parker and Ogwumike are firmly entrenched as starters. Starting all 3 together seems somewhat unlikely. I think she would've been fighting w/ Lavender for minutes as first front court player off the bench.

 

[VAUConnFan]

[Candace] is now a WNBA champion, but her team didn't make the WNBA finals in any of her first 8 seasons.

But LA has been a very good team throughout Parker's tenure. LA did not make the WNBA Finals her first 8 seasons because there were always better teams in the Western Conference whether it was Seattle, Phoenix, or Minnesota. It is debatable that LA was the second best team in the WNBA a number of those years. With the new playoff format, LA has been to the Finals in consecutive years with no end in sight.

 

[Carnac]

But LA has been a very good team throughout Parker's tenure. LA did not make the WNBA Finals her first 8 seasons because there were always better teams in the Western Conference whether it was Seattle, Phoenix, or Minnesota. It is debatable that LA was the second best team in the WNBA a number of those years. With the new playoff format, LA has been to the Finals in consecutive years with no end in sight.

No argument there. However, LA could really use a "dominant" post player next year, but then so could every other WNBA team.

 

[bballnut90]

The Sparks drafted Jonquel Jones, then traded her to Connecticut. I wonder if they wish they had kept her, given the success she had last year?

One of the best trades in WNBA history for both teams. Jones wouldve likely playing behind Candace or Nneka, or created a logjam, in La, and Gray doesn't develop into one of the best guards in the league on Connecticut. Gray was a major reason why LA won last year and Jones has Connecticut in a great spot to push for a finals run in the next few years.

 

[Carnac]

One of the best trades in WNBA history for both teams. Jones wouldve likely playing behind Candace or Nneka, or created a logjam, in La, and Gray doesn't develop into one of the best guards in the league on Connecticut. Gray was a major reason why LA won last year and Jones has Connecticut in a great spot to push for a finals run in the next few years.

Agreed. Another question.......Why are some teams (San Antonio, The Sky) continually at the bottom of the standings every year? Bad drafts, bad trades, no player development, little or no talent, bad coaching, inability to access a free agent/potential draftee's skill level, inability to do proper player risk analysis ? Why are the Lynx good every year, and are constantly in the championship series, while others can't even make the playoffs? Good leadership begins at the top. Do we start there?

 

[EricSD]

Agreed. Another question..Why are some teams (San Antonio, The Sky) continually at the bottom of the standings every year? Bad drafts, bad trades, no player development, little or no talent, bad coaching, inability to access a free agent/potential draftee's skill level, inability to do proper player risk analysis ? Why are the Lynx good every year, and are constantly in the championship series, while others can't even make the playoffs? Good leadership begins at the top. Do we start there?

In fairness, I think the year before the Lynx got Maya, they had some injuries to key players (Augustus, etc), so they were at the bottom. They were able to get the top draft pick and chose Maya. Also, they traded for Fowles, only giving up their 1st round draft pick, which was not very high since by that time they were winning titles (not sure if they gave up any players, but certainly no stars).

I also agree that there is something to be said for coaching and player development. And do the rest of the points you brought up.

 

[nwhoopfan]

The Sky

They were well on their way to becoming the best team in the east, until EDD and Big Syl forced trades in consecutive years, and they got nowhere near equal value in those deals. That seems to have set them back.

 

[Shades]

They got GRAY and Sims (using the draft pick) so I would say it is one of those trades that benefit both teams.

The real question should be does Curt Miller regret not drafting Jonquel Jones at #3 or #4 in 2016 instead of paying what appears to be a high price of Chelsea Gray and #4 in 2017. Hindsight, but that's how these trades get evaluated. Obviously expecting more out of Banham than Chelsea Gray, and either expecting more out of Tuck than Jonquel Jones or felt an obligation to draft Tuck and not ruin the UConn at #1, #2, and #3 deal.

 

[UConnCat]

The real question should be does Curt Miller regret not drafting Jonquel Jones at #3 or #4 in 2016 instead of paying what appears to be a high price of Chelsea Gray and #4 in 2017. Hindsight, but that's how these trades get evaluated. Obviously expecting more out of Banham than Chelsea Gray, and either expecting more out of Tuck than Jonquel Jones or felt an obligation to draft Tuck and not ruin the UConn at #1, #2, and #3 deal.

Obligation? What deal?

 

[Carnac]

The real question should be does Curt Miller regret not drafting Jonquel Jones at #3 or #4 in 2016 instead of paying what appears to be a high price of Chelsea Gray and #4 in 2017. Hindsight, but that's how these trades get evaluated. Obviously expecting more out of Banham than Chelsea Gray, and either expecting more out of Tuck than Jonquel Jones or felt an obligation to draft Tuck and not ruin the UConn at #1, #2, and #3 deal.

The 2018 season will be Morgan's 3rd year. She needs to break out next year, and show that the Sun's faith and trust (2nd overall pick) in her was justified. I understand she was injured. Hopefully she will begin the season completely healthy and focused. Everyone is waiting for her to perform like she did at UConn.

They were well on their way to becoming the best team in the east, until EDD and Big Syl forced trades in consecutive years, and they got nowhere near equal value in those deals. That seems to have set them back.

You are correct. What's wrong with/in Chicago? Why are players begging to leave? That's one of the dynamics or building blocks in constructing a winning franchise. Putting together a front office team and coaching staff that will ATTRACT & RETAIN good players, and not make them want to leave. The Lynx have been able to keep their core players for the last 5-6 years. No hints of a mutiny there. No one has asked to leave or be traded that I can recall. If the Sky's front office is clueless, they can simply copy the business model that Minnesota is using. We know their's works.

 

[eebmg]

The 2018 season will be Morgan's 3rd year. She needs to break out next year, and show that the Sun's faith and trust (2nd overall pick) in her was justified. I understand she was injured. Hopefully she will begin the season completely healthy and focused. Everyone is waiting for her to perform like she did at UConn.



You are correct. What's wrong with/in Chicago? Why are players begging to leave? That's one of the dynamics or building blocks in constructing a winning franchise. Putting together a front office team and coaching staff that will ATTRACT & RETAIN good players, and not make them want to leave. The Lynx have been able to keep their core players for the last 5-6 years. No hints of a mutiny there. No one has asked to leave or be traded that I can recall. If the Sky's front office is clueless, they can simply copy the business model that Minnesota is using. We know their's works.

Not so sure full blame should be placed on the Chicago front office. EDD wanted to be closer to home (something the BY knows something about) and Fowles pulled a Durant. In the WNBA, sitting out is the only way to have any leverage. They probably did upgrade the coaching position after firing Pokie Chapman and
Dolson who made a quantum leap this year, Vandersloot and Quigley are fun to watch. I think the Sky make the playoffs next year.

 

[wallman]

I'd say it differently:

"Her pouting, constant yapping and whining make me want to yell rude things at the TV. She is one of the best players in WBB...when she choses to be. She's just too much of a diva as I see it."

There are 2 things that I haven't liked about Candace: (1) her prima donna personality and (2) her inconsistent play that, at times, reflected lack of effort. She didn't always play smart or hard. To use Geno's terminology, she was allowed to cheat her talent. Since Brian Agler arrived in L.A., that has not been much of a problem. Yes, she's really good--when she wants to be. She is now a WNBA champion, but her team didn't make the WNBA finals in any of her first 8 seasons. As Geno said after the Gold Medal game in London in 2012 (this is an approximate quote), "Candace can be really good when she wants to be. I'm glad she wanted to be today."

These are very good points and have been the Bane of having to watch the Sparks. Agler has done a good job but for CP to be the best she can be she must lose the fact that she thinks she is the best and understand that it does take a the whole team to win. Great players make their teams better, even if they have to sacrifice. We saw more of that last year than this year.

Gray and Sims were huge pick ups for the Sparks. Toler has said that going forward the team will revolve around Gray, if she stays healthy of course.

 

[JoePgh]

The real question should be does Curt Miller regret not drafting Jonquel Jones at #3 or #4 in 2016 instead of paying what appears to be a high price of Chelsea Gray and #4 in 2017. Hindsight, but that's how these trades get evaluated. Obviously expecting more out of Banham than Chelsea Gray, and either expecting more out of Tuck than Jonquel Jones or felt an obligation to draft Tuck and not ruin the UConn at #1, #2, and #3 deal.

Indeed so. The Sun might have gotten to the finals this year, or even won the league championship, if they had used the #4 pick to draft Jonquel Jones and kept Chelsea Gray (and maybe also have gotten Odyssey Sims with the draft pick that they traded). But then hindsight is 20-20.

I will give them a pass since they got Courtney Williams from Phoenix in exchange for Kelsey Bone, who is now out of the league. Basically they got Courtney Williams for free.

Going back a few years, I think the Sun also regret having traded Elizabeth Williams for Alex Bentley. That hasn't proven to be such a good deal for the Sun.

 

[bballnut90]

Agreed. Another question..Why are some teams (San Antonio, The Sky) continually at the bottom of the standings every year? Bad drafts, bad trades, no player development, little or no talent, bad coaching, inability to access a free agent/potential draftee's skill level, inability to do proper player risk analysis ? Why are the Lynx good every year, and are constantly in the championship series, while others can't even make the playoffs? Good leadership begins at the top. Do we start there?

Both teams just haven't drafted well and haven't been able to get marquee players needed. For San Antonio, they've always been in a loaded western conference and were good for a while but not great. From 2006-2014 they didn't get one draft pick in the top 4. They've had top 3 picks the last 3 years, but it hasn't gone as planned.

McBride has been a good player for them but she has had injury issues, Jefferson was great as a rookie and I'm not sure what happened this year, and Plum struggled entering the pros and was by far the weakest 1st overall pick that's come through the league in the last 10 years. No offense to her...she's not a bad player, but she just doesn't compare to other #1 picks like Stewart, Loyd, Ogwumike x2, Griner, Maya, Candace and McCoughtry. They are very weak in the front court, but if they can land Aja Wilson next year, they should be a much better team in 2018 and could contend for a playoff spot (assuming McBride/Plum/Jefferson/Harrison continue to improve, etc.)

For the Sky, this was the first year they didn't make the playoffs after making it 4 straight seasons. They've just had back luck keeping their stars and it caught up with them. They made the Finals just 3 years ago with Fowles and EDD but both players demanded trades and they were only able to get #2 pick (Coates), Dolson, and De Souza out of it...I'm sorry but that is rough outcome. They also drafted poorly this year opting for the injured Coates when they already had a strong center in Dolson. Most thought they'd take Allisha Gray who went on to be ROY. So in summary, it was really just one bad year and they've had bad luck with EDD/Fowles.

As far as the Lynx, they were miserable from 2005-2009 but they were a playoff team if Augustus wasn't injured the first chunk of the season. Luckily for them, they were the last team out of the playoffs in 2010 and lost the tiebreaker to the Sparks and entered the lottery where they were extremely fortunate to nab the #1 pick and draft Maya. Amazing that if the Sparks had lost the tie breaker, they in theory would've had the #1 pick and it would've been Candace and Maya on the same team. But anyway, back on track...Minnesota was already a playoff caliber team and they were able to add in a marquee #1 pick in Maya and with that, they were instantly the favorite. They won a couple of titles, and then they got a real gift when Fowles demanded that she be traded only to Minnesota.

They very easily could've missed out on Maya and Fowles, but both fell into their lap. Perhaps almost as important, Whalen was a hometown hero and Minnesota is where she always wanted to end up so she hasn't ever considered leaving, and Augustus/Brunson have stayed with Minnesota too, so right there are 5 immensely talented core players who have stuck together. You have to give props to the players and front office for keeping chemistry strong and egos in check.

I think Phoenix could've had similar dominance of a dynasty had Pondexter stayed. With her they won 2 titles in four years, and after she left, they've been a mediocre franchise ever since besides their 2014 title.

Detroit could've continued their dynasty too if they didn't relocate and had kept Laimbeer as coach. Once he quit it was downhill, and after they relocated it was disastrous. If they built the Shock around Nolan and had Ford stayed healthy, I think they could've won another title or two.

 

[Carnac]

Both teams just haven't drafted well and haven't been able to get marquee players needed. For San Antonio, they've always been in a loaded western conference and were good for a while but not great. From 2006-2014 they didn't get one draft pick in the top 4. They've had top 3 picks the last 3 years, but it hasn't gone as planned.

McBride has been a good player for them but she has had injury issues, Jefferson was great as a rookie and I'm not sure what happened this year, and Plum struggled entering the pros and was by far the weakest 1st overall pick that's come through the league in the last 10 years. No offense to her...she's not a bad player, but she just doesn't compare to other #1 picks like Stewart, Loyd, Ogwumike x2, Griner, Maya, Candace and McCoughtry. They are very weak in the front court, but if they can land Aja Wilson next year, they should be a much better team in 2018 and could contend for a playoff spot (assuming McBride/Plum/Jefferson/Harrison continue to improve, etc.)

For the Sky, this was the first year they didn't make the playoffs after making it 4 straight seasons. They've just had back luck keeping their stars and it caught up with them. They made the Finals just 3 years ago with Fowles and EDD but both players demanded trades and they were only able to get #2 pick (Coates), Dolson, and De Souza out of it...I'm sorry but that is rough outcome. They also drafted poorly this year opting for the injured Coates when they already had a strong center in Dolson. Most thought they'd take Allisha Gray who went on to be ROY. So in summary, it was really just one bad year and they've had bad luck with EDD/Fowles.

As far as the Lynx, they were miserable from 2005-2009 but they were a playoff team if Augustus wasn't injured the first chunk of the season. Luckily for them, they were the last team out of the playoffs in 2010 and lost the tiebreaker to the Sparks and entered the lottery where they were extremely fortunate to nab the #1 pick and draft Maya. Amazing that if the Sparks had lost the tie breaker, they in theory would've had the #1 pick and it would've been Candace and Maya on the same team. But anyway, back on track...Minnesota was already a playoff caliber team and they were able to add in a marquee #1 pick in Maya and with that, they were instantly the favorite. They won a couple of titles, and then they got a real gift when Fowles demanded that she be traded only to Minnesota.

They very easily could've missed out on Maya and Fowles, but both fell into their lap. Perhaps almost as important, Whalen was a hometown hero and Minnesota is where she always wanted to end up so she hasn't ever considered leaving, and Augustus/Brunson have stayed with Minnesota too, so right there are 5 immensely talented core players who have stuck together. You have to give props to the players and front office for keeping chemistry strong and egos in check.

I think Phoenix could've had similar dominance of a dynasty had Pondexter stayed. With her they won 2 titles in four years, and after she left, they've been a mediocre franchise ever since besides their 2014 title.

Detroit could've continued their dynasty too if they didn't relocate and had kept Laimbeer as coach. Once he quit it was downhill, and after they relocated it was disastrous. If they built the Shock around Nolan and had Ford stayed healthy, I think they could've won another title or two.

Thank you bballnut90, this is an excellent response and analysis to my query. I follow the W, but not that closely. I'm sure anyone else that reads it will also gain a better understanding of the state of the WNBA as you see it.
Two thumbs up!!