Loyola Chicago to the A10!

[dvegas]

Does anyone in their right mind think Villanova will allow Temple to join the Big East? I would not at all be surprised if somewhere in the Big East charter there is language about protecting local media rights (sans original members St. Johns and Seton Hall).

 

[kingdobbs]

Does anyone in their right mind think Villanova will allow Temple to join the Big East? I would not at all be surprised if somewhere in the Big East charter there is language about protecting local media rights (sans original members St. Johns and Seton Hall).

Villanova doesn’t have a veto. If the other members of the league want Temple in, the announcement will speak of a unanimous vote.

 

[SU1968]

Does anyone in their right mind think Villanova will allow Temple to join the Big East? I would not at all be surprised if somewhere in the Big East charter there is language about protecting local media rights (sans original members St. Johns and Seton Hall).

Having lived in the Philly area, I can tell you that there are no local media rights to protect (by Villanova or any of the other Big 5 schools).

 

[CL82]

The money is better in the AAC but what good is it if your sports programs flounder. I'll bet Temple is watching UCONN very closely since their situations are very similar. It may stay put short term but I wouldn't be surprised to see Temple get back to Northeast Basketball.

Yeah, for an East Coast team, I’m not so sure that the American deal is actually better. Remember that $7 million is on average over the life of the deal, so currently they are likely getting less than that. Also keep in mind that with the loss of the teams to the big 12 that number is likely to be reduced. Finally remember that Susan Herbst estimated the travel savings to Connecticut by moving to the Big East conference from the American was about 2 million a year. On a net basis it is pretty much a wash. UConn probably does better financially in the Big East when you consider the CBS Sports net football deal and improved merchandising and attendance.

 

[Pudge]

Yeah, for an East Coast team, I’m not so sure that the American deal is actually better. Remember that $7 million is on average over the life of the deal, so currently they are likely getting less than that. Also keep in mind that with the loss of the teams to the big 12 that number is likely to be reduced. Finally remember that Susan Herbst estimated the travel savings to Connecticut by moving to the Big East conference from the American was about 2 million a year. On a net basis it is pretty much a wash. UConn probably does better financially in the Big East when you consider the CBS Sports net football deal and improved merchandising and attendance.

and we now know that our friend Aresco has firmed up this situation whereby the existing AAC Universities are assured to get approximately what they were getting; while the new 6 will get a little over $2m. Each. (up from $400k or something). Temple is challenged. They could go 20 years of trash or someone could grab the structure that Al Golden/Steve Addazio/Rhule cobbled together; and they can be good. It is an interesting chemistry mix. Methinks this guy Carey is not doing it. Swirling down the toilet; and the hoop ain't what Fran had.

 

[Zissou]

Does anyone in their right mind think Villanova will allow Temple to join the Big East? I would not at all be surprised if somewhere in the Big East charter there is language about protecting local media rights (sans original members St. Johns and Seton Hall).

Nova welcomed Temple to the Big East. Twice.

It’s not happening now, on its own, but it’s always possible if the right package aligns. (For me that is an expansion scenario that includes Kansas).

 

[metsfan2323]

Nova welcomed Temple to the Big East. Twice.

It’s not happening now, on its own, but it’s always possible if the right package aligns. (For me that is an expansion scenario that includes Kansas).

Why the heck would the Big East double up on the same market? Even if Nova approved (they won't) it would be idiotic.

Expansion is about adding new markets and TV sets.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Nova welcomed Temple to the Big East. Twice.

It’s not happening now, on its own, but it’s always possible if the right package aligns. (For me that is an expansion scenario that includes Kansas).

Interesting.

I've followed the conference since inception (prior to Villanova joining) and don't remember Temple ever playing one basketball game as a member of the Big East. In fact, from when the BE started football; initially allowing the four 1A football playing members (Syracuse, BC, Pitt and newly added Miami) plus four other schools (Va Tech, WVU, Temple & Rutgers), first allowing those schools use of the name then later, actually sponsoring the sport, the only football member that wasn't allowed in the conference as a full member was Temple.

I will also go so far as to say that Nova played a significant role in seeing to it that even if other football members were added, Temple would be excluded.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Interesting.

I've followed the conference since inception (prior to Villanova joining) and don't remember Temple ever playing one basketball game as a member of the Big East. In fact, from when the BE started football; initially allowing the four 1A football playing members (Syracuse, BC, Pitt and newly added Miami) plus four other schools (Va Tech, WVU, Temple & Rutgers), first allowing those schools use of the name then later, actually sponsoring the sport, the only football member that wasn't allowed in the conference as a full member was Temple.

I will also go so far as to say that Nova played a significant role in seeing to it that even if other football members were added, Temple would be excluded.

The second time Temple (all sports) was added Nova was already gone or planning to go.

 

[Zissou]

VILLANOVA, Pa. – Today (March 7), following a unanimous vote by the Big East Conference's Board of Directors on a motion put forward by Villanova University President Rev. Peter M. Donohue, OSA, Ph.D., Temple University was invited into the conference in football beginning with the 2012-2013 academic year, and as a full member in all sports in 2013-2014.

"Villanova is proud to welcome Temple to the Big East," Fr. Donohue said. "Villanova, the Big East and Temple are all well positioned in the Philadelphia market with this agreement. Students, alumni and fans will also enjoy the increased rivalry between our schools."

As part of the Big East expansion process, Fr. Donohue worked closely with the conference presidents with the shared goals of strengthening the conference overall, inviting Temple to join as a full member, and ensuring that the conference and both universities are prepared to succeed in Philadelphia. The Big East specifically recognized the equity that Villanova, as a founding member with 30 years' standing in the conference, has cultivated within the Philadelphia market, the fourth largest in the nation. Areas of collaboration include assuring that the scheduling of games and television programming maximizes exposure nationally and locally.

"We welcome Temple to the Big East family," said Jay Wright, Villanova head men's basketball coach. "Temple and Villanova will work well together to ensure the Big East's status as an elite conference and to make Philadelphia a great Big East city. We look forward to adding new chapters to our great rivalry with Temple in the years to come."

 

[Zissou]

Why the heck would the Big East double up on the same market? Even if Nova approved (they won't) it would be idiotic.

Expansion is about adding new markets and TV sets.

Metsfan - are the Yankees threatened in the NY market by the Mets?

The first part of considering Temple is just the conf value. Temple doesn’t add much on its own and it complicates the schedule going to 12 members. It’s not worth the add.

In a larger expansion, including adding Kansas and others for example, adding an eastern school for balance could make sense. In that scenario I’d welcome Temple. There is some benefit to having some rivalries enhanced within the city. Philly is a huge market. There is room for 2. Duke and UNC are both better for their rivalry in conference.

 

[Vowelguy]

Metsfan - are the Yankees threatened in the NY market by the Mets?

.

Actually yes. But that’s part of the reason MLB has a second team there — to dilute the Yankees power somewhat.

 

[Zissou]

Actually yes. But that’s part of the reason MLB has a second team there — to dilute the Yankees power somewhat.

I’d say no.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

VILLANOVA, Pa. – Today (March 7), following a unanimous vote by the Big East Conference's Board of Directors on a motion put forward by Villanova University President Rev. Peter M. Donohue, OSA, Ph.D., Temple University was invited into the conference in football beginning with the 2012-2013 academic year, and as a full member in all sports in 2013-2014.

"Villanova is proud to welcome Temple to the Big East," Fr. Donohue said. "Villanova, the Big East and Temple are all well positioned in the Philadelphia market with this agreement. Students, alumni and fans will also enjoy the increased rivalry between our schools."

As part of the Big East expansion process, Fr. Donohue worked closely with the conference presidents with the shared goals of strengthening the conference overall, inviting Temple to join as a full member, and ensuring that the conference and both universities are prepared to succeed in Philadelphia. The Big East specifically recognized the equity that Villanova, as a founding member with 30 years' standing in the conference, has cultivated within the Philadelphia market, the fourth largest in the nation. Areas of collaboration include assuring that the scheduling of games and television programming maximizes exposure nationally and locally.

"We welcome Temple to the Big East family," said Jay Wright, Villanova head men's basketball coach. "Temple and Villanova will work well together to ensure the Big East's status as an elite conference and to make Philadelphia a great Big East city. We look forward to adding new chapters to our great rivalry with Temple in the years to come."

Considering the timing (nine months before the C-7 voted to leave) I'll concede this instance (although, as I asserted, Temple has never played a basketball game as a member of the Big East conference in that sport).

You did however claim that Nova voted twice to include Temple for all sports. Did your school do so after 3/07/2012 or was the above the second time?

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Actually yes. But that’s part of the reason MLB has a second team there — to dilute the Yankees power somewhat.

The was in fact a whole lot more to it than that.

There likely aren't a lot of baseball fans left who would understand this but up until likely the early-mid 1970's baseball fans held allegiance to a team and by extension (with very few exceptions) the league that team was affiliated with. Trades between AL and NL teams were rare and interleague trades during the season were far more rare. The NL a) did not want to concede the largest market to their rival league (similar reasoning led to the LA Angels as an expansion team) and b) had a massive number of fans who were betrayed by their teams (Dodgers. Giants) who could not become Yankee fans (although their kids and grandkids could, which was part of Vowelguy's point).

My father (who would be 90 if he were still with us) never cheered for a national league team to win the World Series (as a Yankee fan who experienced Yankee-Red Sox rivalry throughout the 1940's, he had an anti-Red Sox stance that was beyond what any Yankee fan from my generation had) and to my surprise rooted for the Red Sox in 1967, 1975 and 1986 (he was no longer with us in 2004). I had uncles who were Dodger fans who claim to have rooted for the Giants in 1951 and 1954 (granted, the Yankees were the opposition in 1951 but to pick them instead of Cleveland says quite a bit). I was told many times as a kid that changes leagues as a baseball fan wasn't far removed from changing religions.

An added item. Primarily due to the Mets ability to align both former Dodger fans and former Giants fans, prior to the run the Yankees began in the mid 1990's, the Mets had the larger fan base (this is coming from a Yankee fan of more than 5 1/2 decades).

 

[dvegas]

Actually yes. But that’s part of the reason MLB has a second team there — to dilute the Yankees power somewhat.

Actually is mostly because NYC is a National League town. Uses to have 2 NL franchises

 

[CL82]

VILLANOVA, Pa. – Today (March 7), following a unanimous vote by the Big East Conference's Board of Directors on a motion put forward by Villanova University President Rev. Peter M. Donohue, OSA, Ph.D., Temple University was invited into the conference in football beginning with the 2012-2013 academic year, and as a full member in all sports in 2013-2014.

"Villanova is proud to welcome Temple to the Big East," Fr. Donohue said. "Villanova, the Big East and Temple are all well positioned in the Philadelphia market with this agreement. Students, alumni and fans will also enjoy the increased rivalry between our schools."

As part of the Big East expansion process, Fr. Donohue worked closely with the conference presidents with the shared goals of strengthening the conference overall, inviting Temple to join as a full member, and ensuring that the conference and both universities are prepared to succeed in Philadelphia. The Big East specifically recognized the equity that Villanova, as a founding member with 30 years' standing in the conference, has cultivated within the Philadelphia market, the fourth largest in the nation. Areas of collaboration include assuring that the scheduling of games and television programming maximizes exposure nationally and locally.

"We welcome Temple to the Big East family," said Jay Wright, Villanova head men's basketball coach. "Temple and Villanova will work well together to ensure the Big East's status as an elite conference and to make Philadelphia a great Big East city. We look forward to adding new chapters to our great rivalry with Temple in the years to come."

So Villanova opposed to Penn State joining the Big East but enthusiastically endorsed Temple joining. Well that’s one hell of a record.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

VILLANOVA, Pa. – Today (March 7), following a unanimous vote by the Big East Conference's Board of Directors on a motion put forward by Villanova University President Rev. Peter M. Donohue, OSA, Ph.D., Temple University was invited into the conference in football beginning with the 2012-2013 academic year, and as a full member in all sports in 2013-2014.

"Villanova is proud to welcome Temple to the Big East," Fr. Donohue said. "Villanova, the Big East and Temple are all well positioned in the Philadelphia market with this agreement. Students, alumni and fans will also enjoy the increased rivalry between our schools."

As part of the Big East expansion process, Fr. Donohue worked closely with the conference presidents with the shared goals of strengthening the conference overall, inviting Temple to join as a full member, and ensuring that the conference and both universities are prepared to succeed in Philadelphia. The Big East specifically recognized the equity that Villanova, as a founding member with 30 years' standing in the conference, has cultivated within the Philadelphia market, the fourth largest in the nation. Areas of collaboration include assuring that the scheduling of games and television programming maximizes exposure nationally and locally.

"We welcome Temple to the Big East family," said Jay Wright, Villanova head men's basketball coach. "Temple and Villanova will work well together to ensure the Big East's status as an elite conference and to make Philadelphia a great Big East city. We look forward to adding new chapters to our great rivalry with Temple in the years to come."

So Villanova opposed to Penn State joining the Big East but enthusiastically endorsed Temple joining. Well that’s one hell of a record.

Dec 2012 The C7 left the Big East
Notice Temple joined for football in 2012 but basketball was delayed until 2013 . I believe when Nova made that statement , leaving was a fait accompli. A good question is would Temple have joined for all sports if they knew the C7 was leaving. I never considered how Temple got suckered in . They probably would have stayed football only without a problem.

 

[ScottVib]

Actually is mostly because NYC is a National League town. Uses to have 2 NL franchises

There's more to it than that. William Shea was in the process of starting up a rival to the major leagues, the Continental League, with the franchise in New York being the flagship (Branch Rickey was to be the league president). This prompted the NL and AL to each announce expansion plans. The NL taking out the Houston market and giving it's other expansion franchise to the New York owners. The AL took out the Minneapolis market through relocation and backfilled Washington DC with the expansion Senators, then they put a second team in LA to establish a west coast presence (Kansas City would move to Oakland later in the decade).

 

[Zissou]

Considering the timing (nine months before the C-7 voted to leave) I'll concede this instance (although, as I asserted, Temple has never played a basketball game as a member of the Big East conference in that sport).

You did however claim that Nova voted twice to include Temple for all sports. Did your school do so after 3/07/2012 or was the above the second time?

“Nova welcomed Temple to the Big East. Twice.”

I did not say twice “for all sports”. The first time was Temple’s football-only run. The second time was for all sports. The C-7 split with the Big East name, tournament, and legacy before Temple could ever play a game in the Big East, and they ended up under the AAC banner.

 

[Zissou]

So Villanova opposed to Penn State joining the Big East but enthusiastically endorsed Temple joining. Well that’s one hell of a record.

Nova endorsed Temple joining because it fit the need of the conference at the time.

Before the Big East contemplated sponsoring football, in its first few years, there was a decision to extend an invite to either Pitt or Penn State for the basketball centered conference. A majority of the conference favored Pitt. There are varying reports of how this played out, with some reporting that Nova was in the Pitt camp. At the time Pitt was perceived to have the better basketball program and was a city team with the Pittsburgh market. The majority viewed it as a better fit.

 

[Zissou]

Dec 2012 The C7 left the Big East
Notice Temple joined for football in 2012 but basketball was delayed until 2013 . I believe when Nova made that statement , leaving was a fait accompli.

When Nova took a leadership position in welcoming Temple, the C-7 split was far from certain. It likely wasn’t even conceived.

Fox took a lead in defining the move. The C-7 was very fortunate in the timing of the FS1 inauguration.

Temple’s position is unfortunate, but still better than its path prior the the invitation that landed them in the AAC.

 

[CL82]

Nova endorsed Temple joining because it fit the need of the conference at the time.

Before the Big East contemplated sponsoring football, in its first few years, there was a decision to extend an invite to either Pitt or Penn State for the basketball centered conference. A majority of the conference favored Pitt. There are varying reports of how this played out, with some reporting that Nova was in the Pitt camp. At the time Pitt was perceived to have the better basketball program and was a city team with the Pittsburgh market. The majority viewed it as a better fit.

Nope, Penn State was voted down prior to Pitt getting an offer.

 

[CL82]

When Nova took a leadership position in welcoming Temple, the C-7 split was far from certain. It likely wasn’t even conceived.

Fox took a lead in defining the move. The C-7 was very fortunate in the timing of the FS1 inauguration.

Temple’s position is unfortunate, but still better than its path prior the the invitation that landed them in the AAC.

The ugly little truth about the C7 split is had they stayed, all the C7 schools and the remaining Big East schools would have made more media money. So, thanks for that “leadership.”

 

[ScottVib]

Nope, Penn State was voted down prior to Pitt getting an offer.

This is the correct timeline. Penn State was voted down by one vote (5-3; apparently that was the score of all five votes on the matter).

Georgetown, Syracuse, Providence & St. John's met to found the conference... initial invitations went out as follows:
Boston College (over Holy Cross, UMass, and BU)
UConn
Rutgers (declined to stay in the A8 (now A10) with Penn State) -> Seton Hall selected instead

Villanova was added a year later over Temple & St. Joes.

Then the Penn State decision came up. It's been widely reported the three no's were: Georgetown, St. John's & Villanova which had recently killed it's football program.

Pitt then was added to protect the league; kill Paterno's Eastern sports conference and retain Syracuse and BC.


Sources: Crouthamel's Big East History, Tranghese's NYT interview, assorted other sites

 

[CL82]

This is the correct timeline. Penn State was voted down by one vote (5-3; apparently that was the score of all five votes on the matter).

Georgetown, Syracuse, Providence & St. John's met to found the conference... initial invitations went out as follows:
Boston College (over Holy Cross, UMass, and BU)
UConn
Rutgers (declined to stay in the A8 (now A10) with Penn State) -> Seton Hall selected instead

Villanova was added a year later over Temple & St. Joes.

Then the Penn State decision came up. It's been widely reported the three no's were: Georgetown, St. John's & Villanova which had recently killed it's football program.

Pitt then was added to protect the league; kill Paterno's Eastern sports conference and retain Syracuse and BC.


Sources: Crouthamel's Big East History, Tranghese's NYT interview, assorted other sites

I thought Holy Cross turned down an invitation as well. It’s interesting to think about what might’ve happened if they had gotten the nod over BC. Same with UMass.

 

[Kolumbo]

Although CR constantly changes things, I think it's shortsighted to think money first. Temple belongs, and would most likely thrive again, in a much better conference than the AAC. Get a program which will make the conference better and the money will come. Philly, NY, and New England are large enough for 2 programs.

Boston U
Northeastern
They don't make the conference better unfortunately but I'd love to see a Boston program worthy of the Big East, or grow into that position. There just isn't one currently.

SUNY Stony Brook - If St. John's is gonna be asleep at the switch...

 

[Slasher]

Although CR constantly changes things, I think it's shortsighted to think money first. Temple belongs, and would most likely thrive again, in a much better conference than the AAC. Get a program which will make the conference better and the money will come. Philly, NY, and New England are large enough for 2 programs.

Boston U
Northeastern
They don't make the conference better unfortunately but I'd love to see a Boston program worthy of the Big East, or grow into that position. There just isn't one currently.

SUNY Stony Brook - If St. John's is gonna be asleep at the switch...

I would agree with you. . . if their downturn coincided with the AAC falling apart. But they really haven't been good since they left the A-10. And the AAC was a pretty good basketball league when they joined. And until Houston and Cincy leaves it's at least "okay." What's really killed them is Fran Dunphy fading into retirement and then a bad coaching hiring decision in McKie. McKie's record is 21-31 with no real appearance this season is going to be any better.

 

[Vowelguy]

Although CR constantly changes things, I think it's shortsighted to think money first. Temple belongs, and would most likely thrive again, in a much better conference than the AAC. Get a program which will make the conference better and the money will come. Philly, NY, and New England are large enough for 2 programs.

Boston U
Northeastern
They don't make the conference better unfortunately but I'd love to see a Boston program worthy of the Big East, or grow into that position. There just isn't one currently.

SUNY Stony Brook - If St. John's is gonna be asleep at the switch...

Thrive again?
When did they thrive?

Last final four - 1958
Last E8 - 2001

 

[Kolumbo]

Thrive again?
When did they thrive?

Last final four - 1958
Last E8 - 2001

During the '80s and '90s the Owls were a perennial tournament team. They had 10 A-10 players of the year. That's a pretty solid run for an A-10 program. Given the Big East cachet and Temple's presence in a huge market, I see potential.