Louisville's time in ACC replete with success, shortcomings (David Teel) | The Boneyard

Louisville's time in ACC replete with success, shortcomings (David Teel)

Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
87,605
Reaction Score
327,138
UNIVERSITY OF LOUISVILLE - CollegeAD

>>Louisville’s 2012 invitation to join the ACC included none of the babbling about academic and cultural fit that accompanied much of conference realignment. This was a sports business transaction, and no one pretended otherwise. Both parties have profited. Just completing their third season in the league, the Cardinals have excelled as many anticipated. Their revenue sports, football and men’s basketball, win. Their Olympic programs win. Indeed, since joining the ACC, Louisville is a combined 333-106 in football, men’s and women’s basketball, and baseball. That .759 winning percentage in the four major sports paces the league by a wide margin — Florida State is next at .703 (312-132). Moreover, the Louisville market devours college sports on television like few, if any, in the country, a boon to the ACC Network that launches in 2019 in conjunction with ESPN.

So what’s not to like? Alas, plenty...>> Louisville's time in ACC replete with success, shortcomings
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
2,459
Reaction Score
4,612
None of the scandal will matter in the long run. They have an aggressive athletic director and he acted in 2012 when they needed it most, and he succeeded in saving their athletic programs. Aggressive lobbying vs. monitoring. I wonder who won that one.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
20,537
Reaction Score
44,602
Even the classroom component has worked. In men’s basketball, the Cardinals have a perfect NCAA Academic Progress Rate of 1,000. Their most recent football APR of 988 trailed only Duke’s 992 in the ACC.

Impressive at a school that almost had it's accreditation stripped.

“I came here to win. That’s what we buy these big scoreboards. We like to win, and we try to do it the right way. We try to do it with class and integrity, and we try to hire the best people. … I’ve always been very ambitious and very aggressive. If that doesn’t fit the bill, so be it, but that’s the way I was told to do it.”


The right way apparently includes providing strippers to recruits, hanging on to a coach that bangs his subordinate wife on restaurant table and hiring back a football coach that was fired for getting his side piece a job at his school or however the story goes.

@buddy is right.

I will never get over being passed over for Louisville by the ACC. That program is dirty as deal, and yet their athletic financial future is secure ehile we play payout games. Pathetic.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
87,605
Reaction Score
327,138
None of the scandal will matter in the long run. They have an aggressive athletic director and he acted in 2012 when they needed it most, and he succeeded in saving their athletic programs. Aggressive lobbying vs. monitoring. I wonder who won that one.

UConn was hosed but that die was cast before the fall of 2012:

>>And that it's been, a credit to athletes, coaches and administrators, led by Tom Jurich, the Cardinals’ athletic director since 1997.<<

Warde Manual time @ UConn in 2012 when ACC acted swiftly: <7 months.
 
Last edited:

SubbaBub

Your stupidity is ruining my country.
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
32,156
Reaction Score
24,782
Even the classroom component has worked. In men’s basketball, the Cardinals have a perfect NCAA Academic Progress Rate of 1,000. Their most recent football APR of 988 trailed only Duke’s 992 in the ACC.

Impressive at a school that almost had it's accreditation stripped.

“I came here to win. That’s what we buy these big scoreboards. We like to win, and we try to do it the right way. We try to do it with class and integrity, and we try to hire the best people. … I’ve always been very ambitious and very aggressive. If that doesn’t fit the bill, so be it, but that’s the way I was told to do it.”


The right way apparently includes providing strippers to recruits, hanging on to a coach that bangs his subordinate wife on restaurant table and hiring back a football coach that was fired for getting his side piece a job at his school or however the story goes.

@buddy is right.

I will never get over being passed over for Louisville by the ACC. That program is dirty as deal, and yet their athletic financial future is secure ehile we play payout games. Pathetic.

Getting passed by UL once academics are pushed aside isn't as hard to swallow as getting pushed aside for Syracuse and Pitt, or BC.

The picked UL based on the perception of FSU believing it to be a more sustainable FB program. If FSU perception is the criteria and fear of getting beat by UConn is part of the culture, it shouldn't be surprising at all.
 
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
2,459
Reaction Score
4,612
UConn was hosed but that die was cast before the fall of 2012:

>>And that it's been, a credit to athletes, coaches and administrators, led by Tom Jurich, the Cardinals’ athletic director since 1997.<<

Warde Manual time @ UConn in 2012 when ACC acted swiftly: <7 months.
Problem is UConn was actually "penciled in", until Mr. Jurich took action.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
87,605
Reaction Score
327,138
Problem is UConn was actually "penciled in", until Mr. Jurich took action.

That was Jurich's self serving/pat himself on the back "ink" quote... research it.

It sucks but Jurich was working on behalf of the school and positioning it for 15 years (and had the experience from CUSA to Big East move). To hang it on Manual (7 months into his tenure) is convenient but not completely accurate.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
2,459
Reaction Score
4,612
Prior to 2012, UConn was in line for the ACC until they were blocked by BC. In 2012, the above with Louisville happened. Therefore, I don't hold the previous regime (Hathaway) as fully responsible. It was the last round with the Louisville add that is leading to UConn's demise. That happened under Suzie/Manuel. They were convinced that they were in and didn't be sure that the contract was signed in real ink. I don't want to keep going back and forth. There are many here who disagree. But it is my take on the situation, right or wrong.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
508
Reaction Score
5,440
Problem is UConn was actually "penciled in", until Mr. Jurich took action.

No Buddy, the real problem is that you have beaten this false narrative for years in almost every thread that discusses that fateful decision. The actual fact is that we did not lose out to Louisville because Jurich out-maneuvered Warde Manuel, or Susan Herbst, or anyone else. Your axe-grinding, anti-Manuel angle has been proven to be pure crap by everyone outside of you and your little group of Manuel haters on this board. Here is just a small sampling of factual information from multiple credible sources that 100% debunk your baseless charges:

From article on ESPN right after decision, November 29, 2012: ACC commissioner John Swofford said Louisville was the best fit for the league following Maryland's announcement last week that it would join the Big Ten.

"When you look at Louisville, you see a university and an athletic program that has all the arrows pointed up -- a tremendous uptick there, tremendous energy," Swofford said on a teleconference. "It's always an overall fit in every respect and I think that's what we found."


From another article a day earlier:
According to Louisville AD Tom Jurich, Syracuse (along with Florida State and Clemson) pushed hard for Louisville over UConn as the 14th member of the ACC



And from the NY Times article written (and mentioned in several of these threads at the time) in March of 2016:

Most of the A.C.C.'s presidents wanted UConn, which has a much higher U.S. News ranking than Louisville. But two of the A.C.C.'s most important football programs, Florida State and Clemson, insisted on Louisville, whose football team was ranked 13th that year. Fearing that the two universities might leave the A.C.C., and thus diminish the value of its television contracts, the conference opted for Louisville.


I quote these three articles, which are just a small sample of many words written by many people who actually know what they are talking about on the subject of Louisville being picked over us in 2012.

Once and for all Buddy, stop ruining threads with your baseless, debunked theory that Jurich outmaneuvered Manuel and Herbst at the last minute.

The fact is:

1. The ACC was scared to death of losing Florida State and Clemson at the time to either the SEC or the Big 12, so both of those schools held the ultimate power on who whould be chosen. And both of those schools strongly backed Louisville long before the 11th hour, despite your claims that they were at some point on our side. Florida State and Clemson were going to get what they wanted, even if we had the Pope on our side at the time. That is a fact. We also now know that at least Syracuse was actively campaigning against us as well.

Not once in your litany of posts have you ever debunked this fact. Why? Because you know it is the real truth. You just act like this fact, which trumps any baseless comment or theory you have ever posted on this subject, is either baseless rumor (like what you have consistently spewed ad nauseam) or has never been discussed.

Stop hating on Manuel. The guy was not perfect, but he was definitely a better and more professional AD than Jeff Hathaway, who caused a lot more damage to our athletic department than Manuel ever did. And he is not the reason we lost out to Louisville... as the litany of actual published fact over the last 4 1/2 years clearly illustrates.


 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,013
Reaction Score
4,572
It seems there is too much crying about Rutgers and Louisville and not enough effort on improving UConn's current position.
 

CL82

NCAA Men’s Basketball National Champions - Again!
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
56,958
Reaction Score
208,743
Most of the A.C.C.'s presidents wanted UConn, which has a much higher U.S. News ranking than Louisville.
So UConn had a majority of ACC president's in its corner and still lost out to Louisville?

Hmmm.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
508
Reaction Score
5,440
So UConn had a majority of ACC president's in its corner and still lost out to Louisville?

Hmmm.

CL82, it never mattered how many... quantity. At that time what mattered to Swofford and most everyone else in power in the ACC was keeping Florida State and Clemson happy at all costs. I realize that there was general knowledge of this at the time after the vote, but most of us did not realize just how strongly pro-Louisville those two schools were. Knowing that now puts to bed any notion that there was any magic last minute maneuvering by Jurich. Once Florida State and Clemson decided it was Louisville (which they did long before the last minute) then we were losing. Plain and simple. Which is why the argument that Manuel or Herbst was to blame for us losing out to Louisville, after all the information that has come out since that time, is ridiculous. The facts are what they are. Ignoring these facts to continue to support a false narrative flies in the face of basic common sense... except that the person doing it (not you) obviously has an intense personal dislike for Manuel, for whatever reason.

Do you really think the powers that be at the ACC, including the school presidents who were on our side at the time, were going to risk alienating and then losing Florida State or Clemson to pick us over Louisville?

By all means, please explain how the very real threat of losing the two commodities that make their conference viable as a player in the P5 in the most important revenue-producing sport would not have been by far the most important factor as to who got invited, us or Louisville?

No school was going to stand that strongly behind us for our academic or basketball advantages. Particularly when you consider that our men's basketball program only 5 months earlier had been hit with the APR ban that would keep us out of the entire 2013 post season, while Louisville had just been to the Final 4... and then was going to go back and win the National Title the year later. The truth is our only clear strength was the academics, AT THAT TIME. And as much as I hate to admit it... football is driving this entire realignment game, and nothing else is second.

Again, I am not saying that Manuel was perfect. But I just think it is plain wrong to continue this false narrative with no factual support (and in fact, a lot of factual information that flies in the face of this narrative) to blame the man for us losing out to Louisville because of "last minute lobbying" from Jurich when it is clear looking back from many sources that it was actually us fighting the uphill battle due to Florida State and Clemson clearly preferring Louisville.
 

CL82

NCAA Men’s Basketball National Champions - Again!
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
56,958
Reaction Score
208,743
CL82, it never mattered how many... quantity. At that time what mattered to Swofford and most everyone else in power in the ACC was keeping Florida State and Clemson happy at all costs. I realize that there was general knowledge of this at the time after the vote, but most of us did not realize just how strongly pro-Louisville those two schools were. Knowing that now puts to bed any notion that there was any magic last minute maneuvering by Jurich. Once Florida State and Clemson decided it was Louisville (which they did long before the last minute) then we were losing. Plain and simple. Which is why the argument that Manuel or Herbst was to blame for us losing out to Louisville, after all the information that has come out since that time, is ridiculous. The facts are what they are. Ignoring these facts to continue to support a false narrative flies in the face of basic common sense... except that the person doing it (not you) obviously has an intense personal dislike for Manuel, for whatever reason.

Do you really think the powers that be at the ACC, including the school presidents who were on our side at the time, were going to risk alienating and then losing Florida State or Clemson to pick us over Louisville?

By all means, please explain how the very real threat of losing the two commodities that make their conference viable as a player in the P5 in the most important revenue-producing sport would not have been by far the most important factor as to who got invited, us or Louisville?

No school was going to stand that strongly behind us for our academic or basketball advantages. Particularly when you consider that our men's basketball program only 5 months earlier had been hit with the APR ban that would keep us out of the entire 2013 post season, while Louisville had just been to the Final 4... and then was going to go back and win the National Title the year later. The truth is our only clear strength was the academics, AT THAT TIME. And as much as I hate to admit it... football is driving this entire realignment game, and nothing else is second.

Again, I am not saying that Manuel was perfect. But I just think it is plain wrong to continue this false narrative with no factual support (and in fact, a lot of factual information that flies in the face of this narrative) to blame the man for us losing out to Louisville because of "last minute lobbying" from Jurich when it is clear looking back from many sources that it was actually us fighting the uphill battle due to Florida State and Clemson clearly preferring Louisville.
Wow, Warde, shouldn't you be running Michigan's athletic department or something? ;)

I agree that the ACC was vulnerable and couldn't afford to alienate FSU (and to a lesser extent Clemson) at the time. I'll add the point that it was "common knowledge" that FSU was tired of Tobacco Road calling all the shots. Still much of the rest of your post is creative writing. The fact that you seem to cite 'Ville's future natty as a basis for their choice is a sign that you are reaching just a bit in your analysis. Likewise, UConn football at the time was a hot up and coming program and had already been to a BCS bowl.

As you noted, the majority of the ACC preferred UConn. Those votes were turned, so you can't really say that it was a done deal for Louisville. Really just the opposite was true. I think UConn wrongly relied on that representation and felt it had a done deal thus it stated silent while Jurich pitched hard. Would it have made a difference? Who knows, but it was a tactical error not to be in the trenches. It left one voice our there, Tom Jurich's. Minimally, the optics were very bad.
 
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
208
Reaction Score
664
...not enough effort on improving UConn's current position.
3AZmTnB.jpg


Dorothy: "Professor Marvel, what do you see in the crystal?"
Professor Marvel: "Dorothy, I see a great shark--with a diabolical smile and gleaming white teeth."
Dorothy: "That sounds terrible! What could it mean?"
Professor Marvel: "Dorothy I fear a permaban is in someone's future. Do you know what a permaban is, Dorothy?"
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
8,507
Reaction Score
8,011
Timing must be everything.

Coming off of two straight 8 win seasons, UConn, in 2010, again won 8 games and was in a 3 way tie for the conference championship..... and went to the BCS bowl....where Oklahoma beat them by four touchdowns.

in 2011,,...UConn fell off to a losing season. Ditto for 2012.

Louisville had not looked good at all up through 2011...but they hit it at the right time...in 2012 the Cards won 11 games and beat eleven win Florida in the Sugar.

At the time of the November 8, 2012 ACC vote...Louisville was 9-0 in the 2012 season.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
508
Reaction Score
5,440
Wow, Warde, shouldn't you be running Michigan's athletic department or something? ;)

I agree that the ACC was vulnerable and couldn't afford to alienate FSU (and to a lesser extent Clemson) at the time. I'll add the point that it was "common knowledge" that FSU was tired of Tobacco Road calling all the shots. Still much of the rest of your post is creative writing. The fact that you seem to cite 'Ville's future natty as a basis for their choice is a sign that you are reaching just a bit in your analysis. Likewise, UConn football at the time was a hot up and coming program and had already been to a BCS bowl.

As you noted, the majority of the ACC preferred UConn. Those votes were turned, so you can't really say that it was a done deal for Louisville. Really just the opposite was true. I think UConn wrongly relied on that representation and felt it had a done deal thus it stated silent while Jurich pitched hard. Would it have made a difference? Who knows, but it was a tactical error not to be in the trenches. It left one voice our there, Tom Jurich's. Minimally, the optics were very bad.


Actually, that is creative writing (or more bluntly misquoting) on your part, as I clearly stated that it was their 2012 Final 4 appearance that was Louisville's most recent performance at the time of the decision - which still ranked above us, since we had just lost in the first round to Iowa State after an under-achieving year and then got hit with the APR ban a month later... and only 7 months prior to the vote. My point was that we did not even hold an advantage in men's basketball over Louisville at that time. We didn't. That is a fact. Not sure what is creative writing about that.

And as for football... yes, we had made our first BCS bowl game almost 2 years earlier... and what came out of that? An unfortunate confluence of events that did more to hurt our brand then help: Our coach who had built the program and led us to that BCS birth left us within hours of the end of the game, and their were stories circulating in a number of places including on ESPN about how poor our fan support was... supposedly many thousands of tickets from our school ticket allotment went unsold, and we got bashed in many well-publicized circles for it. And even though some of that has been explained over the years since then, AT THE TIME we were made to look like a school that lacked in real fan support for our football program. It is interesting how you anti-Manuel guys never mention how those "very bad optics" produced by our own fans hurt the UConn football perception with the ACC at that crucial time more than anything Manuel did or didn't do. And for the record, we were in the process of finishing up our 2nd losing, non-bowl season in a row. So in fact, we were not considered "hot" or "up and coming" by November 2012. THAT is creative writing by you.


From still another article on why the ACC chose Louisville over us:

Football was the deciding factor because administrators feared the league's football powerhouse schools, Florida State and Clemson, might leave for another conference if they were unhappy with whatever school the ACC chose. Choosing Louisville simply meant better football within the conference.

The Cardinals won their first nine games this past season and will play in the Sugar Bowl on Jan. 2 before a large national TV audience. On the other hand, UConn is home for the holidays, having completed its second losing season in a row. It remains in the Big East, a conference in flux.



The obvious fact is: football had taken over the driver's seat well before November 2012. Florida State and Clemson wanted Louisville, and it had nothing to do with Jurich's pitching, or Manuel's lack of doing the same. Yes, as I said and you supported, the majority of the ACC would have preferred us... but they preferred keeping Florida State and Clemson a heck of a lot more than they cared about whether the choice would be us or Louisville.

Maybe this is easier for you to understand if you were to put yourself in Swofford's position, or someone else in an ACC school president's decision-making position at the time. How would have you casted your vote? For UConn, and then potentially watched your conference go down the drain by pushing Florida State and/or Clemson to one of your rival conferences? Sorry, but if you are honest, the answer is a no-brainer. You would have voted for Louisville. And it would have had nothing to do with Jurich.

By the way, as a UConn Alum and 30-year fan... I hate the way conference realignment has gone just as much as you or anyone else. But it does not lead me to make up false narratives about what happened just because I do not like Manuel, or anyone else.

And as for Jeff Hathaway - there is a reason why both Jim Calhoun and Geno Auriemma did not like him, whereas they both had much more respect for Warde Manuel. Hathaway was way over his skis as our Athletic Director - unfortunately totally the wrong man at the wrong time for our athletic department.
 
Last edited:

CL82

NCAA Men’s Basketball National Champions - Again!
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
56,958
Reaction Score
208,743
Actually, that is creative writing (or more bluntly misquoting) on your part, as I clearly stated that it was their 2012 Final 4 appearance that was Louisville's most recent performance at the time of the decision - which still ranked above us, since we had just lost in the first round to Iowa State after an under-achieving year and then got hit with the APR ban a month later... and only 7 months prior to the vote. My point was that we did not even hold an advantage in men's basketball over Louisville at that time. We didn't. That is a fact. Not sure what is creative writing about that.

And as for football... yes, we had made our first BCS bowl game almost 2 years earlier... and what came out of that? An unfortunate confluence of events that did more to hurt our brand then help: Our coach who had built the program and led us to that BCS birth left us within hours of the end of the game, and their were stories circulating in a number of places including on ESPN about how poor our fan support was... supposedly many thousands of tickets from our school ticket allotment went unsold, and we got bashed in many well-publicized circles for it. And even though some of that has been explained over the years since then, AT THE TIME we were made to look like a school that lacked in real fan support for our football program. It is interesting how you anti-Manuel guys never mention how those "very bad optics" produced by our own fans hurt the UConn football perception with the ACC at that crucial time more than anything Manuel did or didn't do. And for the record, we were in the process of finishing up our 2nd losing, non-bowl season in a row. So in fact, we were not considered "hot" or "up and coming" by November 2012. THAT is creative writing by you.


From still another article on why the ACC chose Louisville over us:

Football was the deciding factor because administrators feared the league's football powerhouse schools, Florida State and Clemson, might leave for another conference if they were unhappy with whatever school the ACC chose. Choosing Louisville simply meant better football within the conference.

The Cardinals won their first nine games this past season and will play in the Sugar Bowl on Jan. 2 before a large national TV audience. On the other hand, UConn is home for the holidays, having completed its second losing season in a row. It remains in the Big East, a conference in flux.



The obvious fact is: football had taken over the driver's seat well before November 2012. Florida State and Clemson wanted Louisville, and it had nothing to do with Jurich's pitching, or Manuel's lack of doing the same. Yes, as I said and you supported, the majority of the ACC would have preferred us... but they preferred keeping Florida State and Clemson a heck of a lot more than they cared about whether the choice would be us or Louisville.

Maybe this is easier for you to understand if you were to put yourself in Swofford's position, or someone else in an ACC school president's decision-making position at the time. How would have you casted your vote? For UConn, and then potentially watched your conference go down the drain by pushing Florida State and/or Clemson to one of your rival conferences? Sorry, but if you are honest, the answer is a no-brainer. You would have voted for Louisville. And it would have had nothing to do with Jurich.

By the way, as a UConn Alum and 30-year fan... I hate the way conference realignment has gone just as much as you or anyone else. But it does not lead me to make up false narratives about what happened just because I do not like Manuel, or anyone else.

And as for Jeff Hathaway - there is a reason why both Jim Calhoun and Geno Auriemma did not like him, whereas they both had much more respect for Warde Manuel. Hathaway was way over his skis as our Athletic Director - unfortunately totally the wrong man at the wrong time for our athletic department.
TL: DR

I admire your passion for the topic, if not your accuracy.
 

TRest

Horrible
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
7,860
Reaction Score
22,373
Timing must be everything.

Coming off of two straight 8 win seasons, UConn, in 2010, again won 8 games and was in a 3 way tie for the conference championship..... and went to the BCS bowl....where Oklahoma beat them by four touchdowns.

in 2011,,...UConn fell off to a losing season. Ditto for 2012.

Louisville had not looked good at all up through 2011...but they hit it at the right time...in 2012 the Cards won 11 games and beat eleven win Florida in the Sugar.

At the time of the November 8, 2012 ACC vote...Louisville was 9-0 in the 2012 season.
Louisville was voted in on 11/28/12, the week following losing to UConn at home.
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
8,507
Reaction Score
8,011
Louisville was voted in on 11/28/12, the week following losing to UConn at home.



But Louisville's football may have had nothing at all to do with tipping the Cards selection.

Interestingly...ESPN said this at the time...

The ACC also considered Connecticut and Cincinnati for membership. However, sources told ESPN that the league wanted Louisville only because there is a sense among league presidents that the ACC can add more schools at a later date if the conference loses any other current members.

If the sources are correct, the ACC only took Louisville because they thought someone else would (Big 12?) and that they thought other schools would be available at a future date if the conference needed to fill a slot/s.
 
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
2,459
Reaction Score
4,612
Actually, that is creative writing (or more bluntly misquoting) on your part, as I clearly stated that it was their 2012 Final 4 appearance that was Louisville's most recent performance at the time of the decision - which still ranked above us, since we had just lost in the first round to Iowa State after an under-achieving year and then got hit with the APR ban a month later... and only 7 months prior to the vote. My point was that we did not even hold an advantage in men's basketball over Louisville at that time. We didn't. That is a fact. Not sure what is creative writing about that.

And as for football... yes, we had made our first BCS bowl game almost 2 years earlier... and what came out of that? An unfortunate confluence of events that did more to hurt our brand then help: Our coach who had built the program and led us to that BCS birth left us within hours of the end of the game, and their were stories circulating in a number of places including on ESPN about how poor our fan support was... supposedly many thousands of tickets from our school ticket allotment went unsold, and we got bashed in many well-publicized circles for it. And even though some of that has been explained over the years since then, AT THE TIME we were made to look like a school that lacked in real fan support for our football program. It is interesting how you anti-Manuel guys never mention how those "very bad optics" produced by our own fans hurt the UConn football perception with the ACC at that crucial time more than anything Manuel did or didn't do. And for the record, we were in the process of finishing up our 2nd losing, non-bowl season in a row. So in fact, we were not considered "hot" or "up and coming" by November 2012. THAT is creative writing by you.


From still another article on why the ACC chose Louisville over us:

Football was the deciding factor because administrators feared the league's football powerhouse schools, Florida State and Clemson, might leave for another conference if they were unhappy with whatever school the ACC chose. Choosing Louisville simply meant better football within the conference.

The Cardinals won their first nine games this past season and will play in the Sugar Bowl on Jan. 2 before a large national TV audience. On the other hand, UConn is home for the holidays, having completed its second losing season in a row. It remains in the Big East, a conference in flux.



The obvious fact is: football had taken over the driver's seat well before November 2012. Florida State and Clemson wanted Louisville, and it had nothing to do with Jurich's pitching, or Manuel's lack of doing the same. Yes, as I said and you supported, the majority of the ACC would have preferred us... but they preferred keeping Florida State and Clemson a heck of a lot more than they cared about whether the choice would be us or Louisville.

Maybe this is easier for you to understand if you were to put yourself in Swofford's position, or someone else in an ACC school president's decision-making position at the time. How would have you casted your vote? For UConn, and then potentially watched your conference go down the drain by pushing Florida State and/or Clemson to one of your rival conferences? Sorry, but if you are honest, the answer is a no-brainer. You would have voted for Louisville. And it would have had nothing to do with Jurich.

By the way, as a UConn Alum and 30-year fan... I hate the way conference realignment has gone just as much as you or anyone else. But it does not lead me to make up false narratives about what happened just because I do not like Manuel, or anyone else.

And as for Jeff Hathaway - there is a reason why both Jim Calhoun and Geno Auriemma did not like him, whereas they both had much more respect for Warde Manuel. Hathaway was way over his skis as our Athletic Director - unfortunately totally the wrong man at the wrong time for our athletic department.
No Buddy, the real problem is that you have beaten this false narrative for years in almost every thread that discusses that fateful decision. The actual fact is that we did not lose out to Louisville because Jurich out-maneuvered Warde Manuel, or Susan Herbst, or anyone else. Your axe-grinding, anti-Manuel angle has been proven to be pure crap by everyone outside of you and your little group of Manuel haters on this board. Here is just a small sampling of factual information from multiple credible sources that 100% debunk your baseless charges:

From article on ESPN right after decision, November 29, 2012: ACC commissioner John Swofford said Louisville was the best fit for the league following Maryland's announcement last week that it would join the Big Ten.

"When you look at Louisville, you see a university and an athletic program that has all the arrows pointed up -- a tremendous uptick there, tremendous energy," Swofford said on a teleconference. "It's always an overall fit in every respect and I think that's what we found."


From another article a day earlier:
According to Louisville AD Tom Jurich, Syracuse (along with Florida State and Clemson) pushed hard for Louisville over UConn as the 14th member of the ACC



And from the NY Times article written (and mentioned in several of these threads at the time) in March of 2016:

Most of the A.C.C.'s presidents wanted UConn, which has a much higher U.S. News ranking than Louisville. But two of the A.C.C.'s most important football programs, Florida State and Clemson, insisted on Louisville, whose football team was ranked 13th that year. Fearing that the two universities might leave the A.C.C., and thus diminish the value of its television contracts, the conference opted for Louisville.


I quote these three articles, which are just a small sample of many words written by many people who actually know what they are talking about on the subject of Louisville being picked over us in 2012.

Once and for all Buddy, stop ruining threads with your baseless, debunked theory that Jurich outmaneuvered Manuel and Herbst at the last minute.

The fact is:

1. The ACC was scared to death of losing Florida State and Clemson at the time to either the SEC or the Big 12, so both of those schools held the ultimate power on who whould be chosen. And both of those schools strongly backed Louisville long before the 11th hour, despite your claims that they were at some point on our side. Florida State and Clemson were going to get what they wanted, even if we had the Pope on our side at the time. That is a fact. We also now know that at least Syracuse was actively campaigning against us as well.

Not once in your litany of posts have you ever debunked this fact. Why? Because you know it is the real truth. You just act like this fact, which trumps any baseless comment or theory you have ever posted on this subject, is either baseless rumor (like what you have consistently spewed ad nauseam) or has never been discussed.

Stop hating on Manuel. The guy was not perfect, but he was definitely a better and more professional AD than Jeff Hathaway, who caused a lot more damage to our athletic department than Manuel ever did. And he is not the reason we lost out to Louisville... as the litany of actual published fact over the last 4 1/2 years clearly illustrates.


I have no personal dislike of Mr. Manuel. I do feel he could have done more for UConn at that time. I really feel that they were over confident that UConn was selected and stopped pushing.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
508
Reaction Score
5,440
I have no personal dislike of Mr. Manuel. I do feel he could have done more for UConn at that time. I really feel that they were over confident that UConn was selected and stopped pushing.

I remember that was one of the prevailing beliefs held by many at the time. But I believe that all of the stories and information that has come out since then reflects that during their discussions when the spot became available Manuel and Herbst found out quickly that Florida State and Clemson were not going to budge on their desire to have Louisville, and no one who would have voted for us had the muscle or desire to push us over the top. That last part is me surmising based upon the information I gathered through the people I talked to and the dozen or so stories I have read from different sides. I have lived in Florida for 2 decades now, and the several "in the know" Florida State alums I have spoken with about it said that they absolutely wanted Louisville if Maryland did indeed go through with its move to the Big 10. And that was well known by Swofford and others in power long before the actual vote took place.

The Tobacco Road group had historically held the power in the ACC since its founding in 1953 - but they knew in 2012 that they could not afford to antagonize their football power programs (Florida State in particular) at that important juncture in time. Losing Florida State (rumors at the time were rampant that they were in talks with either the SEC or the Big 12) would have seriously jeopardized the ACC's future. Swofford knew it... and so did all those school presidents.

I apologize for being over-zealous with my initial post Buddy. I have felt that Manuel (and even Herbst) took a bad rap for that situation, when there was really no chance for them to overcome the "Florida State and Clemson blockade". And then of course the capper being that our "good friends" from Syracuse (with an assist from all their alums at ESPN, I am pretty sure) back-stabbed the crap out of us to boot.

Pompous D-bags.

We have one, maybe two more shots at this... I pray that Edsall 2.0 (Lashlee and Crocker in reality) turns our football program back into a consistent winner with a brand. It has to happen for us to have any chance when that next opportunity comes... in 2021, 2023 or 2025.

I am sure we agree on at least this much - being stuck in this AAC hell is mostly AWFUL!... Almost as awful as Bob Diaco was last year as our head football coach.
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
8,507
Reaction Score
8,011
You are right about FSU-Clemson...

I live in Tallahassee (and western North Carolina), am a Seminole booster and, at the time, was a 40 year ticket holder, had worked under contract for FSU for a time after I had retired (BOT support, contract review) and knew a few folks...

FSU fans, and some leading trustees, were of the mind that Tobacco Road was wagging the dog. It was basketball forward vs football forward. And it really was a lot about FSU pushing back...against the Swofford/UNC faction...regarding many things that seemed designed in Tobacco Roads favor...scheduling, officiating, etc.

BUT...

The fact that it appeared that Louisville would go to the Big 12 was probably an under appreciated factor...I think that the ACC Presidents were persuaded to pick the ripe fruit and, if you wanted more, they would still be there.
 

pj

Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Messages
8,615
Reaction Score
25,039
As I read the retrospective tea leaves, UConn's mistake was to work with the Tobacco Road schools, especially UNC and UVa, with whom they have good relations, and let the Tobacco Road schools work the ACC and the other schools on their behalf.

The problem was that most ACC schools didn't have a clear idea of UConn's value, and some of the old Big East schools saw UConn as a local competitor for students and didn't want to upgrade the local competition.

The proper pitch was to persuade FSU and Clemson that the key to their future success was a strong ACC cable network, and UConn's ability to deliver the whole state of Connecticut plus large chunks of NYC and Boston far outweighed Louisville's ability to bring metro Louisville households. The other element was to persuade the ACC that the B12 and B1G had genuine interest in UConn, and so they couldn't count on UConn being available in a future add.

It could have been done, but you had to have done months of research beforehand to gather data and make a compelling case. I don't think UConn officials had gotten their story together. Hathaway didn't invest in such research or think strategically, and Manuel had only been in the job a few months. Herbst probably didn't realize the importance until after Louisville was selected.
 

Online statistics

Members online
473
Guests online
4,586
Total visitors
5,059

Forum statistics

Threads
156,994
Messages
4,075,989
Members
9,965
Latest member
deltaop99


Top Bottom