Let's talk about the hockey subbing... | The Boneyard

Let's talk about the hockey subbing...

CL82

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Last night pulling our starters en masse and playing the bench seemed like it killed our momentum and let Indiana back into the game. I think that Hurley maybe be doing to build cohesiveness with the younger group. Apparently Palantine does as well:
Hurley is trying to develop a program not a team. All the young guys are going to play every game. And Hurley is going to put them in tough situations. Hurley is looking for a pay out late this year, next year of the one after.
In theory that's fine, but it sure looks like it is hurting us on the court. I think we are much better team if go with a more traditional substitution plan.
 
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hes throwing the young guys in to experience atmospheres like last night. thats the only way the likes of bouknight, gaffney, adams to an extent get better and adapt to college hoops landscape.
 

CL82

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hes throwing the young guys in to experience atmospheres like last night. thats the only way the likes of bouknight, gaffney, adams to an extent get better and adapt to college hoops landscape.
Yeah no one is saying don't play them. I am suggesting that playing them all at once is a recipe for disaster especially in a big game in MSG.
 
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2 games now that this hasn't worked. Took the momentum from the team, along with Akok getting 2 fouls, that we never got back. We should have won by 10 or more.
 
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hes throwing the young guys in to experience atmospheres like last night. thats the only way the likes of bouknight, gaffney, adams to an extent get better and adapt to college hoops landscape.

They could get that experience playing with the starters 1 or 2 at a time. Bouk is the only one who can score. Maybe Adams but not with that group. And Bouk was not ready last night.
 
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They could get that experience playing with the starters 1 or 2 at a time. Bouk is the only one who can score. Maybe Adams but not with that group. And Bouk was not ready last night.
yeah, but throwing 5 on at once tells you that he really wants to integrate them by next year. if he put on 1 or 2 at a time it would mean he's trying to mix them with the upperclassmen. but vital and gilbert wont be here with the freshman next year.
 
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yeah, but throwing 5 on at once tells you that he really wants to integrate them by next year. if he put on 1 or 2 at a time it would mean he's trying to mix them with the upperclassmen. but vital and gilbert wont be here with the freshman next year.

Potentially it cost us a quality win that would have gone a long way into getting into the tournament. Not the NIT tournament. They can gsin that experience and we can play for today.
 
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Last night pulling our starters en masse and playing the bench seemed like it killed our momentum and let Indiana back into the game. I think that Hurley maybe be doing to build cohesiveness with the younger group. Apparently Palantine does as well:

In theory that's fine, but it sure looks like it is hurting us on the court. I think we are much better team if go with a more traditional substitution plan.
Agreed. Was at the game last night, and the short run we made after Indiana initially got up had the team, and the crowd stoked. Then, the mass substitution just changed the whole atmosphere, not to mention that Tyler had hit two 3s, and why mess with his rhythm.
 
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So if you assume that Akok and Gilbert were out due to 2 fouls, you have to pick one or both of Polley or Vital to leave out there. If it's Vital, the same people complaining about the mass substitutions are complaining about leaving Vital out there (in fact, some have already complained about Bouk "having to be out there with Vital"). I'm not sure Polley addresses the hole in that lineup offensively as he's not someone who can create his own shot, and a lineup of Gaffney/Adams/Bouk/Polley/Carlton is likely going to get murdered on the boards.

I suppose he could have subbed Bouknight in for Vital earlier. But he did that, and Bouknight looked overwhelmed.

The bigger mistake is not using a quick timeout once IU trimmed the lead.
 

ctchamps

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So if you assume that Akok and Gilbert were out due to 2 fouls, you have to pick one or both of Polley or Vital to leave out there. If it's Vital, the same people complaining about the mass substitutions are complaining about leaving Vital out there (in fact, some have already complained about Bouk "having to be out there with Vital"). I'm not sure Polley addresses the hole in that lineup offensively as he's not someone who can create his own shot, and a lineup of Gaffney/Adams/Bouk/Polley/Carlton is likely going to get murdered on the boards.

I suppose he could have subbed Bouknight in for Vital earlier. But he did that, and Bouknight looked overwhelmed.

The bigger mistake is not using a quick timeout once IU trimmed the lead.
Agree. The OP is not accurate. He integrated the subs in the manner the OP wanted until the two fouls forced his hand. And we saw what happened when CV came back in and ran things.

The biggest factor in this game was the lack of a backup to Al. None of Bouknight, Adams, Gaffney or Vital were up to the task. Interestingly during that 18-3 run in which Christian had four of his turnovers Bouknight stayed planted in the corner. That's probably when the time out should have been called. Even in the best of circumstances Christian is going to struggle at the point but if the second guard on the floor is not involved in helping out the offense we get what we observed.
 

Horatio

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Last night pulling our starters en masse and playing the bench seemed like it killed our momentum and let Indiana back into the game. I think that Hurley maybe be doing to build cohesiveness with the younger group. Apparently Palantine does as well:

In theory that's fine, but it sure looks like it is hurting us on the court. I think we are much better team if go with a more traditional substitution plan.

I think getting a win against Indiana at MSG was more important than developing the young guys last night. I understand but things could’ve been adjusted for victory last night. Tough call. What was noticeable was that we don’t have a back up for AG or Carlton.
 

Waquoit

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It worked when Indiana went up six. We caught up, the Vital came back in and killed the chemistry.
 
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The bigger mistake is not using a quick timeout once IU trimmed the lead.

He’s shown a reluctance to take time outs. I don’t understand why? Has he ever gone into halftime with 0 or 1 To? It seems like he has all of them.
 

Hans Sprungfeld

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Last night pulling our starters en masse and playing the bench seemed like it killed our momentum and let Indiana back into the game. I think that Hurley maybe be doing to build cohesiveness with the younger group. Apparently Palantine does as well:

In theory that's fine, but it sure looks like it is hurting us on the court. I think we are much better team if go with a more traditional substitution plan.
I don't think we'll see this in the new year.
 

ctchamps

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Microcosm of the season at large.
We have the players with the talent to back him up. Unfortunately they need more time to get acclimated to the college game. The biggest concern I have is how the players respond when they lose. Certain people handle adversity better than others and overcome a negative situation better than others. I hope that is the case with the new recruits. If they hang their heads, doubt themselves, start blaming one another, their chances for development decrease.
 
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Agree. The OP is not accurate. He integrated the subs in the manner the OP wanted until the two fouls forced his hand. And we saw what happened when CV came back in and ran things.

The biggest factor in this game was the lack of a backup to Al. None of Bouknight, Adams, Gaffney or Vital were up to the task. Interestingly during that 18-3 run in which Christian had four of his turnovers Bouknight stayed planted in the corner. That's probably when the time out should have been called. Even in the best of circumstances Christian is going to struggle at the point but if the second guard on the floor is not involved in helping out the offense we get what we observed.

I agree, the OP is wrong. The hockey subs thing didn't happen last night. Moreover, we were up 9 13:30 into the game when the first subs came in and we were up 10 with 5 minutes to play in the half.

The substitution patterns didn't kill us, not valuing the ball in the last 5 minutes of the half (leading to Indiana outscoring us by 15) did. Those 5 minutes were the game, and they had nothing to do with wholesale substitutions.
 
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A few thoughts on subs - We have two players (Akok and Josh) who can play post defense, rebound, be intimidating around the hoop, and score as bigs (Albeit, scoring in different ways). Generally speaking they can’t both be out of the game at the same time if we can help it, we just lose too much in the post on both ends of the floor. If Whaley needs to go in for Josh, having Akok in the game for weakside help and blocks helps immensely, in my opinion. If Akok is out, having Josh in gives us some kind of post presence/stability on both ends of the floor.

I would also think about making an effort to have the most creative players in the game when Adams or Gaff are running the point. Neither one of them is much of a creator in the half court, so adding Bouknight, for example, can help create offense and maybe balance that out a bit.

Keeping Akok in the game when Adams or Gaff is running the point is another strategy I think could help a little. Akok’s ability to be disruptive on defense around the basket with his length and his ability to block shots can lead to more running and fast break opportunities and maybe a bit less pressure for Adams/Gaff to have to create in the half court. (And it doesn’t hurt in this scenario that Akok can catch lobs also).

One step further, maybe you try to make a “defensive pressure lineup” to really help push the pace of the game when Adams or Gaff is in.

I know, Hurley knows better than I do, but it really doesn’t feel, to me, like we’re putting out the strongest, most balanced lineups that we can. It feels a lot more like wholesale subs to try and tire out the other team. I still have a ton of faith in Hurley, but I would really like to feel more like the substitution patterns are well thought out, make sense, and are to our best advantage.
 
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When did we decide that this is a pattern? I know he did it against Iona, and last night (though the foul situation may have contributed). Was he doing it prior to this? Or is this just another attempt to grab at straws and play armchair quarterback?
 

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