Let the Real MVPs Take the Stage

[UConn990411]

On a serious note, what does Australia require of its national team members? Are those players allowed to play in the WNBA leading up to the Olympics or are they required to be training with the national team?

They're required to sit out. And I've never liked that mandate.

 

[hoophuskee]

Of course it is only a matter of opinion and very few can dispute Ms Taurasi's greatness at any level, but when has she ever impacted a game on the defensive end? Key rebound, key steal, key defensive effort, key block, defending a gifted offensive player, defending a player much bigger and taller. If ever I was going to make an argument against Ms Taurasi as the GOAT, it would be because there have been other greats who have played both ends of the floor. Ms Taurasi also sets a disagreeable precedent contractually sitting out a season. Not that I totally disagree with her. Give me money not to work and I will take it, but she is the face of the Phoenix franchise, a true star in the league, a player for whom people go out of their way to see. She pretty much took the 2102 season off as well. Great players play, great players show up, great players fulfill obligations to their teams, their teammates, their fans.

Here on the Boneyard, she pretty much gets a pass and a lot of praise for her decision not to play. How many other top players in the league would have been afforded that kind of latitude? Whether Ms Taurasi's decision/contract upsets team chemistry is an interesting discussion. Ideally, she will be welcomed back with open arms as it was suggested in this thread. And her team will respond with another championship a la Michael Jordan. One would think, though, that having gone toe to toe with Minnesota in the Western Conference finals that Ms Taurasi's Phoenix teammates are, right now, harboring a ton of resentment.

Taurasi impacted the game on the defensive end in 2007 in the wnba finals. In the Conf finals the mighty Detroit Shock had outrebounded previous opponent, Indiana by over 10.5 rebounds per game. They were number 1 in rebounds that season. Phoenix stuck a shooting guard named Diana Taurasi in the middle of a 3-2 zone in which she was battling against the power of the Shock’s rebounding. How many shooting guards can you do that with vs the defending champions known for their physicality and rebounding?


After game 1 in which Dt got into foul trouble only playing 22 minutes and Phoenix got blitzed on the glass 48-30, the next 4 games was approximately 32.4 vs 29.8 in favor of Detroit. Granted DT was not MVP of the series, Cappie was. But DT’s physicality in the paint allowed Phoenix to battle just enough to thwart the Shock’s awesome power in the paint.


You don’ need to be a ball hawk or block shots in order to impact the game defensively. Nor do you have to be the best defender on the court. DT was always extremely, extremely, extremely, extremely strong. Detroit’s game was that of power. Here are two interesting quotes below from the attached link. And while you read – which sg’s can you name that when DT was in her prime that was able to rebound as well as DT? And also while you read the 2nd quote take special note as o what Turner said and note that DT averaged 6 rebounds in the finals. This link was before the finals:


http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/mercury-rising-6404562


"In the past, [the challenge] has been our rebounding," Penny Taylor says. "We've had problems getting on the boards and things like that. But even when we don't rebound well, we've won games. I think the focus now is blocking and getting boards, because from that, we feed our running game. And getting out and running is what we need."


“Going forward with Smith's statement about the Mercury's defense, Turner Thorne says, "There's an old cliché in basketball: 'Offense wins awards, defense wins games, and rebounding wins championships.' And rebounding [a major part of a team's defense] is not strength of the Mercury's. If there's one thing I'm concerned about for them in the postseason, it's that. Taurasi, Pondexter — those guys that do so much for the team, they've got to have five or six rebounds per game. They can flat-out score. I think the defense has improved and they're doing a good job with that, so it's won and done if they can just hold teams.”

 

[VAUConnFan]

hoophuskie, your response to my post is greatly appreciated. You went way back into the memory banks and provided a lengthy rebuttal to the claim of Diana Taurasi's lack of impact on the defensive end. Your statement about not having to be a ball hawk, a shot blocker, or the best defender on the court to impact the game defensively are quite true.

However:
1. The 2007 championship series with Detroit was not won with defense. Detroit averaged 87 points a game in that series; Lost Game 5 with a 92 point effort. Detroit averaged 74 points in their previous series against Indiana, and 66 points in their first round matchup with New York.
2. The fact that Detroit scored significantly more and Phoenix was even more potent offensively might explain the closing of the rebounding gap that you mentioned; There were fewer shots coming off the boards.
3. As mentioned, defense was not what won that series for Phoenix. And, if Ms Taurasi had an impact from her position in the middle of the 3-2 zone, it was not reflected in the scores. Teams utilize zone defenses to thwart inside scoring, against teams with suspect outside shooting, to hide defensive liabilities, to protect players in foul trouble, as a change of pace, and to allow teams to focus their attention on a particularly gifted offensive player. There are, likely, a slew of other reasons. However, a team going to a zone does not make a strong case for an individual player's defensive prowess. Of course, there are exceptions. If you are David Wingate hounding Chris Mullin in a box and one, or if you are blocking or altering shots on the perimeter, breaking up passes, etc. What won that series for Phoenix was being able to squeeze even more offense out of an already extremely potent offense by running the offense through Cappie Pondexter.
4. You asked two questions in your response, both of them pretty much the same question about rebounding shooting guards. While the distinction between shooting guards and point guards is not always obvious, an effort will be made here to list shooting guards as opposed to obvious point guards. The question: Shooting guards who could rebound as well as Diana Taurasi in her prime? Off the top of my head; DeWanna Bonner, Elena Della Donne, Angel McCoughtry, Cappie Pondexter, Sheryl Swoopes, Nykesha Sales, Cheryl Cooper. Admittedly, the list is not that long and all of these ballplayers named are outstanding. Ms Swoopes, in leading Texas Tech to the 1993 national championship was not only the record setting leading scorer in that series, but, from her guard position, was the leading rebounder.
You could not have posed this question without first knowing Ms Taurasi's rebounding stats and her standing among guards in the league. Are you about to shock me with some mind numbing stats? Asked because this is the only point about which I feel slightly vulnerable. Ms Taurasi is a six foot guard, extremely competitive, and, as you say, quite strong, so she is bound to get a fair share of rebounds.

 

[UcMiami]

VAU - her career rebounding number is 4.2 rpg, with a high in 2009 of 5.7 and a low of 3.2 in 2011 (except for her 8 game injury plagued year.) In the playoffs she has raised that to 6.8 in 2009 with 4 other years at or above 6.0. So yes, for a guard she is about as good as it gets.
But I think her 'defensive liability' reputation is also a little made up. Individual defensive play is generally a pretense as offensive players have so many advantages one-on-one. The ability to play team defense is what matters at the highest levels of skill, and that is a matter of communications and motivation and intensity at which DT excels.
And of course one can also point to the old adage 'the best defense is a strong offense' at which Taurus also excels - her offense puts added pressure on the other team's offense to 'keep up'. Your pointing to the scoring average in that play-off series is a case in point - you are talking about a 'great defensive team' being forced (and failing) to try and keep up against a team that was scoring at will against them.
On the separate issue of taking time away:

If you look at most of the great players in the WNBA they have taken serious time away from the league whether forced by injury or not - DT even with the 2012 season being only 8 games averaged over 34.2 games a year for 11 years. Even adding this year into the averages at zero she is at 31.3 - compare that to:
Parker - 27.4 (through 8 years)
Augustus - 29.8 (10 years)
Catchings - 34.6 (14 years)
Bird - 34.6 (14 years)

If you were to add in international play, with Taurasi being so often in championship competition her games played per year average probably surpasses all of these folks. And she has never done the 'I'll head to Europe after Christmas'- that most of these folks do. That is why people 'give her a break' for taking a four month holiday in her professional career after 11 years of non-stop play. Do we really want these stars only to rest their bodies because they have been run so hard for so long that they are broken by injury? If taking 4 months off, extends her Phoenix career by a couple of years is that actually a negative?

Aside: I do think the Asian season is a great bonus for players that choose that over Europe - I don't think the level of competition is as good, and the money isn't quite as good, and the cultural issues are probably a little harder on a personal level - but the shorter season allows for mini-breaks between seasons that the European players do not get. Maya and BG have to be better rested and better physically and mentally for the WNBA season than DT or Parker. You could see what six weeks meant to Parker when she returned this year half way into the season.

 

[hoophuskee]

hoophuskie, your response to my post is greatly appreciated. You went way back into the memory banks and provided a lengthy rebuttal to the claim of Diana Taurasi's lack of impact on the defensive end. Your statement about not having to be a ball hawk, a shot blocker, or the best defender on the court to impact the game defensively are quite true.

However:

You could not have posed this question without first knowing Ms Taurasi's rebounding stats and her standing among guards in the league. Are you about to shock me with some mind numbing stats? Asked because this is the only point about which I feel slightly vulnerable. Ms Taurasi is a six foot guard, extremely competitive, and, as you say, quite strong, so she is bound to get a fair share of rebounds.

VAUCONN – first off just want to say I didn’t understand your point about what I knew beforehand or not. You’re “telling me” what I “would have” known before posting is right in a way but so wrong in another. In fact every single point you make I disagree with. Not just one or two. EVERY point. With that said- in your 1st post you speak of GOAT. I think we can agree on one thing and that is GOAT is very very very subjective. A lot is personal preference. For example I used to post a lot on the old espn board and much on the NBA Boards. Discussions on GOAT were frequent. I have felt Jordan was GOAT though I can’t stand him. I can respect those that offered some other player – within reason of course. I’ll tell you something funny. There was a time Lakers were doing great and Kobe was among the top players in the league. One Laker fan, going to college for that matter, argued that Kobe was GOAT. One of his reasons he said Kobe was better, and I quote, “Kobe Bryant is greater than Michael Jordan because he takes tougher shots.” I kid you not. The people that argued for Kobe – imo we could throw out the door.


And I noticed on your 1st post you had said DT gets a pass by some. Sure she does – just as I mentioned when people speak of their own “GOATS” they have preferences in what they want in a GOAT, so they’ll excuse the minute flaws in the player they say is GOAT. Some say “championships” is best to judge so it’s Russell for them. Some say stats “So it’s Wilt.” Etc. SO while you post that some give DT a pass, I have an opinion that some boneyarders (such as those that criticize Geno’s use of the bench or Geno’s arrogance) they get sick and tired reading how wonderful everything is from the posters. And to balance that in their eyes, they go overboard with their personal critique. You don’t see it much the past two years – but once STewie and Mojeff leave; they’ll trickle back in and be more vocal.


I love the GOAT discussion and as stated I posted a lot on the old espn NBA Boards and also went into the “general wcbb board.” There would posts of GOAT college player etc. Because I’ve always felt defensive rebounding is important, when anyone posted that Dt doesn’t play or never played much of it, even back then I saw what she did on the defensive boards. So I’ve always thought the college DT was superior to players like Holdsclaw and Parker (they would argue Holdsclaw and Parker "played the game at both end while DT didn't.") . I’ve always welcomed the chance to debate that argument and lo-and-behold when DT gets into the WNBA, what happens, she impacts the game defensively in 2007 Finals vs one of the most physically tough teams the WNBA had seen up until hat point. SO ofc I remember. And every so often when this subject comes up- I’m happy to respond.


SO just a few points on the ones you made- 1.) This is what you said in referring to Dt having an impact defensively-to paraphrase you asked when did she get a : “Key rebound, key steal, key defensive effort, key block, defending a gifted offensive player, defending a player much bigger and taller.”

I remember the 3-2 zone. I remember rooting big time for Phoenix. I remember rebounding was going to be key because I’ve ALWAYS known that it was DT’s strength on defense just as it was for guys like Magic and Bird (they were terrific rebounders). And here is the quote I provided BEFORE That series started: Going forward with Smith's statement about the Mercury's defense, Turner Thorne says, "There's an old cliché in basketball: 'Offense wins awards, defense wins games, and rebounding wins championships.' And rebounding [a major part of a team's defense] is not strength of the Mercury's. If there's one thing I'm concerned about for them in the postseason, it's that. Taurasi, Pondexter — those guys that do so much for the team, they've got to have five or six rebounds per game.”

2.) What is THE COACH saying? Not you or I. But what is THE COACH saying? REBOUNDS WILL BE THE KEY. What did your post say? “Key rebound . . . “ Dt did it for a SERIES. This is a coach. IMO it backs up my claim. She averages SIX rebounds.


3.) And as for some of the players you are calling a sg—I strongly disagree calling someone like EDD (and Angel) a sg. Matter of fact with a poster named orangutan claimed EDD was a sf– I asked him or her who was guarding Maya when Sky played Lynx. Haven’t heard back. IMO haven’t heard back from him or her because imo EDD doesn’t guard wings that can either stick outside shots or put the ball on the floor well and are a quick sg. S why si she even considered a sf? Because she takes outside shots? And as I mentioned DT’s prime as a sg, that must be taken into consideration within your context. In DT’s prime she was a superior rebounder to Cooper, Sales and Cappie. You can go check their primes and the stat called DRB%. And because I don’t agree with your assessment of EDD or Angel as sg’s I then question your mention of Swoopes. I’ve always thought of her as a sf though I didn’t see her much. Maybe she played for example 5 minutes of 35 as a “sg?”



So it’s all how we look at things. You say some boneyarders give DT a pass. I say some boneyarders get sick and tired of all good things being said and then go overboard by getting too critical.