Let Players Decide Games, Period

[BroadwayVa]

I like Lupica, and usually enjoy listening to him. But not on this issue. Rules should not be selectively enforced. A play that's a charge or a block at the beginning of a game, is also a charge or block in the final seconds with the score tied. Never mind "letting them play". Unfortunately, things like traveling no-calls in the NBA give the impression that rules can be ignored. If a rule needs to be changed, change it. Otherwise, enforce it.
Regarding the flagrant foul, it seemed obvious to me that the officials didn't want to call it, and only did so because they had to.

Fully agree---use the rule as it is written or dump it--no half way. Agree to withe Flagrant foul. Geno and Christine called it to their attention--then the video check---some say they didn't see it ---but they had to see KLS screaming and writhing on the floor---

 

[Bestiarius]

One of my (many) pet peeves is when the announcer proclaims, "Good no call." I presume what they are saying is it was a foul, but it's a good thing they didn't call it. Or, are they saying it looked like a foul but wasn't?

 

[UcMiami]

One of my (many) pet peeves is when the announcer proclaims, "Good no call." I presume what they are saying is it was a foul, but it's a good thing they didn't call it. Or, are they saying it looked like a foul but wasn't?

Mostly they say that when a call could have gone either way but was not clearly one way or the other and was not clearly a foul - the Saniya drive was clearly contact, so could have been called an offensive foul and could have been called a defensive foul but was better left as a no-call. BB is supposedly a non-contact sport that has a ton of contact, and technically much of that contact amounts to a 'foul' but no one wants all of those fouls called.

We all complain about 'ticky-tack' fouls which amounts to 'not letting them play' but we don't deny that there was contact but feel it was completely incidental to the play.

International rules are almost identical to US rules, but emphasize arm and hand contact over body contact especially around the basket - same rules, different emphasis.

 

[Centerstream]

At least the referees we're alerted to the obvious flagrant foul via an email from a tv viewer...

I meant to post "weren't alerted". Oops.

 

[Centerstream]

One thing that I don't enjoy while watching WCBB, and one reason why I no longer watch very much MCBB, is when you know the referees did not actually see a foul but assumed that there must have been one committed. The call on Gabby late in THE game comes to mind especially. It just makes no sense to me why referees seem compelled to do this.

 

[hoophuskee]

Overall I like Mike Lupica because I heard him on the radio and the guy would take calls and never be arrogant to the callers-. It's so unlike his persona and some of those shows he's on.

But in this case he is out to lunch.

Point 1: You do NOT let the COLLEGE players "play" at the end of games unless they are doing great. Especially when they are struggling. There is a reason why they are college players and not pros. His comparison of grown professional players vs college players is laughable. Sorry Mike I love ya-- but your point is just wrong.

Point 2-- I assume Mike is part of tough northeast NBA appreciation back in 60's 70'2 80's. These teams vs the softer but athletic West was sort of a source of pride how physical the East played. In this case Mike is just taking the narrow point of view of the foul that shouldn't have been called. It's BS however. I'm sure if Mike was good at basketball/competitive too and playing a pickup game and someone was being very physical with him the whole day and he got caught with an elbow like that in the throat late in the game, I can't believe he - the tough guy-- wouldn't have thrown a punch at the other guy. He'd have done it because it's perceived a dirty play caused by the defender. You got no business going to the throat/ head. If that is how you play defense they you reap what you sow. You can't have it both ways. Mike! If the defense in the last 30 seconds is allowed to crack heads and chuck elbows to the throat that otherwise would have been grounds for throwing punches, then the defense went too far. IMO Mike should have had a little more appreciation of what a competitor from New York would have done if he or she took a shot like that in a highly competitive pickup game. The offensive player wouldn't take that crap. Because the defense went too far. If the defense is physical enough that you'd throw a punch in even a less competitive situation than what Lou was in - then it's gone too far.

Point 3- Mike's qualifier is laughable that if UConn would have won the game - the would have been handed the game. How many close games could someone throw out a qualifier? Unfortunately Mikes just comes across as a but whiney if things weren;'t to go his way. Because-- Miss State still had a decent chance to win the game despite the call. SO to say IF UCONN scored .. . well Mike -- they just need to stop them from scoring. Stop them from scoring and please don't whine Mike. The point is-- the game wasn't given to UCONN. After the foul Miss State had to stop them. They stopped UCONN. They won. Miss State still had their chance to determine the outcome.

I don't know about Miss State. But the points of the foul on Lou and a blanket statement to let the players play and comparing that to grown pros is just sooo wrong.

 

[UcMiami]

At least the referees we're alerted to the obvious flagrant foul via an email from a tv viewer...

One of the things that I think really is bad with golf because only maybe five percent or less of shot in a golf tournament are actually broadcast the kind of inadvertent rules violations that are caught are random and tend to hit the popular golfers or the leaders who have more of their action live broadcast. If it is a case of a intentional breach of the rules, fine. If not, like a ball moving imperceptibly before a shot, if the golfers and the marshals and officials that are following the group don't perceive an issue, going to the video after a round or long after a hole is completed seems to be unfair. If you want to use video, than mandate every golfer has a personal videographer and set up a panel of rules officials to review the hours of tape each night.

 

[Padutch5]

Mostly they say that when a call could have gone either way but was not clearly one way or the other and was not clearly a foul - the Saniya drive was clearly contact, so could have been called an offensive foul and could have been called a defensive foul but was better left as a no-call. BB is supposedly a non-contact sport that has a ton of contact, and technically much of that contact amounts to a 'foul' but no one wants all of those fouls called.

We all complain about 'ticky-tack' fouls which amounts to 'not letting them play' but we don't deny that there was contact but feel it was completely incidental to the play.

International rules are almost identical to US rules, but emphasize arm and hand contact over body contact especially around the basket - same rules, different emphasis.

I actually believe the "no contact" issue is reaching a crises point in basketball, I cant watch men's basketball anymore. It has become football in shorts. I think most college refs are in way over their heads because there is no longer a clear guide what contact is a foul and what isn't. A ref could call a foul in almost every play under the basket but thankfully they don't. So how do they decide which contact to call???? I'm not sure they even know.
I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, but I'd like to see us get to less contact and more finesse , particularly in men's basketball.
As to the foul against Samuelson, the real question is not was it a foul, but how could three refs all miss it to begin with.

 

[mbr33ct]

Interesting, because I was watching Vic and a few other coaches during the tournament who seemed to be coaching every offensive possession throughout the game. And i was thinking about one of Geno's complaints about what was killing MCBB and picking out that trait of college coaches trying to control every second on the court on every possession and taking the spontaneity out of the men's game and making it boring.

I do wonder about the choice of sitting William for the last 10 minutes of the season - seems odd to not allow for the possibility of a message being delivered in the first 5 minutes and giving the team leader another chance. Mid season, fine, knock out tournament unless for something egregious, at least subject to a few questions.

IMO, unless "itty bitty"was injured, she should have been playing in that 4th quarter. Vic owes "his" appearance in the NC game to none other than William. Without her, Miss St would have been home watching the Final Fours from his living room recliner...and not to mention the other thing that happened in the semis.

 

[UConnNick]

I actually believe the "no contact" issue is reaching a crises point in basketball, I cant watch men's basketball anymore. It has become football in shorts. I think most college refs are in way over their heads because there is no longer a clear guide what contact is a foul and what isn't. A ref could call a foul in almost every play under the basket but thankfully they don't. So how do they decide which contact to call???? I'm not sure they even know.
I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, but I'd like to see us get to less contact and more finesse , particularly in men's basketball.
As to the foul against Samuelson, the real question is not was it a foul, but how could three refs all miss it to begin with.

Because they weren't paying enough attention to notice a player who fell to the floor backwards while clutching her throat?

 

[OldAlum]

I hate it when people say "let'em play" when players are getting mugged on the court. Rules need to be enforced and fouls called. I would very much like any rule or enforcement changes that would make the game "less physical" under the basket. I simply don't like that style of play and I believe the women's game would be better served by promoting a more free-flowing, skillful game. I loved it when Geno talked about the women's game being different.
Of course it would be ugly at first as everyone had to adjust to the rules and the way the refs called the game. But, as always, consistency is the key. There needs to be a lot of work to help the different refs all call the game similarly and call the game consistently from start to finish.

 

[PAHuskeyFan]

Because they weren't paying enough attention to notice a player who fell to the floor backwards while clutching her throat?

Bravo!!!!! I completely agree. I saw the foul from my family room half the country away and was screaming at the TV for someone to make the call. I do not agree that refs should swallow their whistles late in the game. A foul is a foul, regardless of when it happens, especially a FLAGRANT foul where someone could get hurt. Other posters have said they think Lou may have been acting... I say NO Way... and ask, if it was their College Sophomore daughter on the receiving end of a for arm to the neck, what would they say then!!!!

 

[stamfordhusky]

I hate it when people say "let'em play" when players are getting mugged on the court. Rules need to be enforced and fouls called. I would very much like any rule or enforcement changes that would make the game "less physical" under the basket. I simply don't like that style of play and I believe the women's game would be better served by promoting a more free-flowing, skillful game. I loved it when Geno talked about the women's game being different.
Of course it would be ugly at first as everyone had to adjust to the rules and the way the refs called the game. But, as always, consistency is the key. There needs to be a lot of work to help the different refs all call the game similarly and call the game consistently from start to finish.

Agree 100%. When idiots in the media, say "let the players decide the game", they are completely off the mark. If fouls are ignored, then they are NOT letting the players decide the game. In that case, the refs are deciding the game by choosing to ignore the rules.

 

[BigBird]

When I hear some talking head blurt out "They shouldn't call that at this point in the game," I want to empty a couple of mags into my lovely Samsung.

If it is a violation you call it. If you don't like that, then change the stupid rule.

Equally frustrating on NBA games is the inference that star players not only get more favorable calls, but actually deserve that preferred status. Rubbish!

 

[easttexastrash]

I hate it when people say "let'em play" when players are getting mugged on the court. Rules need to be enforced and fouls called. I would very much like any rule or enforcement changes that would make the game "less physical" under the basket. I simply don't like that style of play and I believe the women's game would be better served by promoting a more free-flowing, skillful game. I loved it when Geno talked about the women's game being different.
Of course it would be ugly at first as everyone had to adjust to the rules and the way the refs called the game. But, as always, consistency is the key. There needs to be a lot of work to help the different refs all call the game similarly and call the game consistently from start to finish.

Every Baylor fan who watched Baylor vs Louisville in 2013 would agree with you. But, as has been stated numerous times on this board, you have to adjust to the way the game is being called.

Shoni Schimmel should have been called for a technical when she jumped up and screamed in BG's face at the end of that game but I can't say that one person on the BY will ever agree with this assessment. Had it happened earlier in the game maybe they would have, but none of those refs were going to call that at that point in the game.

 

[bertieboy]

Honestly, folks who say "let players decide the game" puzzle me. Players ARE deciding the game by committing fouls. Should refs not call them?

Guess the only way to REALLY let players decide the games (Period) is pull all the refs off the court.

"Let the players decide the game" is often heard after the losing coach complains about a last minute call that cost him the game. What they are really saying, in my opinion, is "Don't call any violations on us as the game is winding down." Games are won/lost by the good things players do, they bad plays they make and the violations they commit. To not call an obvious violation, no matter the time left, would be a travesty. To make an incorrect call in the closing seconds is equally as bad.

 

[bertieboy]

Every Baylor fan who watched Baylor vs Louisville in 2013 would agree with you. But, as has been stated numerous times on this board, you have to adjust to the way the game is being called.

Shoni Schimmel should have been called for a technical when she jumped up and screamed in BG's face at the end of that game but I can't say that one person on the BY will ever agree with this assessment. Had it happened earlier in the game maybe they would have, but none of those refs were going to call that at that point in the game.

I fully agree she should have been called for a technical. I remember that play quite well.

 

[Rixxx]

What I hate is when the offensive player drives to the rim and jumps into the defender and throws up a prayer. The ball goes in and player receives an and one. Or, player misses and gets two free throws AND the defender gets the foul in both instances, even though the offensive player initiated the contact. Grrrrr.

 

[JoePgh]

What I hate is when the offensive player drives to the rim and jumps into the defender and throws up a prayer. The ball goes in and player receives an and one. Or, player misses and gets two free throws AND the defender gets the foul in both instances, even though the offensive player initiated the contact. Grrrrr.

If either of the defender's feet are even partially in the restricted area, that is a legal play and a proper call -- IF the defender is a secondary defender.

 

[hoophuskee]

If either of the defender's feet are even partially in the restricted area, that is a legal play and a proper call -- IF the defender is a secondary defender.

The point is-- as a fan you can choose to like it or not. A charge in which a player flops; The NBA tried to make a flop illegal/ embarrass the flopper as best they can. Also rules change several years ago about the restricted area. Before that if someone were to say as rixxx is saying that they hate how a defensive player could dash under the rim and then flop and ends up the offensive player gets a charge- you could have said back then just as you are now -- "well that's legal."


But it still doesn't take away / didn't take away from some of us that we don't like it. I don't like the player throwing their body into a player when the ball has no hope to go in = and they get rewarded for it- I hate it too. I know it's legal. But hope that some day they will do something about it. I like free flowing basketball. This slows the game down in which the offensive player basically is taking a shot with no hope of the ball going in. As a fan that is not fun to watch for me.

 

[GMP 65]

Honestly, folks who say "let players decide the game" puzzle me. Players ARE deciding the game by committing fouls. Should refs not call them?

Guess the only way to REALLY let players decide the games (Period) is pull all the refs off the court.

I agree with you 100%. Are the refs suppose to ignore illegal contact during the game? I was a ref for 10 years, and believe me you cannot make everyone happy.

 

[chrissaran]

Lupica is full of himself, and he's full of s*&#. A foul is a foul no matter when it happens. Dillingham did decide to flagrantly foul Katie Lou. The refs didn't make her commit the foul; she did it all on her own. Doris and Kara both said without question it was a flagrant one. Dave O'Brien read what factors cause a foul to meet that criteria. It was a flagrant one. I'd like to tell Lupica what he can do with his opinion. The only way he got close to athletes was to report on them. He certainly is no athlete. Never was.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Bravo!!!!! I completely agree. I saw the foul from my family room half the country away and was screaming at the TV for someone to make the call. I do not agree that refs should swallow their whistles late in the game. A foul is a foul, regardless of when it happens, especially a FLAGRANT foul where someone could get hurt. Other posters have said they think Lou may have been acting... I say NO Way... and ask, if it was their College Sophomore daughter on the receiving end of a for arm to the neck, what would they say then!!!!

Just to be clear - I believe it was an unintentional flagrant foul due to the player being unconcerned about raising her elbow. I watched numerous replays at the time, both my wife and I agreed it deserved being called - but both of us believe it was not intentional. That said, I liked the article in general.

 

[Ukonnfan]

Just a guy ranting smoothly.