LeBron

[Dogdeacon]

Holy crap, I didn't catch the game, but look at his box score. 16/24 including 3/6 from 3, 49pts. Dude is playing at an all-timer level.

 

[Kitaman]

After winning a couple of Ships he is a changed playoff player and is carrying a team of injured and aged veterans. He also seems to love playing basketball, and I now notice an attitude of hating to lose. He abused Paul Pierce from what I saw, with a mean face while at it.

The thing about Lebron that I noticed is that if he wants to take over a game, make a needed shot or do anything that ensures victory, there ain't a player in the NBA that can stop him. I don't have the same feeling about Durant as good as he is.

You can argue all you want about where he stands with the great ones, but you can't argue that he doesn't belong in the conversation.

 

[Dogdeacon]

After winning a couple of Ships he is a changed playoff players and is carrying a team of injured and aged veterans. He also seems to love playing basketball, and I now notice an attitude of hating to lose. He abused Paul Pierce from what I saw, with a mean face while at it.

The thing about Lebron that I noticed is that if he wants to take over a game, make a needed shot or do anything that ensures victory, there ain't a player in the NBA can stop him. I don't have the same feeling about Durant as good as he is.

You can argue all you want about where he stands with the great ones, but you can't argue that he doesn't belong in the conversation.

That 'where he stands with the great ones' conversation unfortunately happens every few minutes and in the midst of the playoffs. Nonetheless, as you say carrying this Heat team is indicative of just how great LeBron is right now. Without LeBron the Heat would be worse than any of the other 16 NBA playoff teams (including the Bobcats if you added back Jefferson).

I also agree on Durant, he can be unstoppable in the open floor going to the basket, but in the half court the defense can force him into contested jumpers and he settles for these tough jump shots too often. Durant needs to be a little more Dirk Nowitzkish and add a mid-post up game where he can get higher % shots or go to line. Probably next year.

 

[dogfan96]

That 'where he stands with the great ones' conversation unfortunately happens every few minutes and in the midst of the playoffs. Nonetheless, as you say carrying this Heat team is indicative of just how great LeBron is right now. Without LeBron the Heat would be worse than any of the other 16 NBA playoff teams (including the Bobcats if you added back Jefferson).

I also agree on Durant, he can be unstoppable in the open floor going to the basket, but in the half court the defense can force him into contested jumpers and he settles for these tough jump shots too often. Durant needs to be a little more Dirk Nowitzkish and add a mid-post up game where he can get higher % shots or go to line. Probably next year.

He tries to but he's so skinny that he gets pushed off his spot easily by most NBA forwards (and some guards)

 

[PacificStorm]

He tries to but he's so skinny that he gets pushed off his spot easily by most NBA forwards (and some guards)

he's roughly the same weight as Dirk.

 

[CallMeBruce]

he's roughly the same weight as Dirk.

Yeah, but Dirk is German.

 

[PacificStorm]

What's your point?

 

[UConn990411]

I can't recall too many ugly shooting nights in LeBron's playoff career.

The guy is just an incredible player.

 

[G0UCONN]

Will ultimately pass Jordan to be considered the greatest ever...

 

[Scoe]

He played even even greater then the box score indicated, he was dominant on the defensive end shutting down Joe Johnson. Ray hit some clutch shuts and got some key rebounds btw.

 

[aceboon]

He played even even greater then the box score indicated, he was dominant on the defensive end shutting down Joe Johnson. Ray hit some clutch shuts and got some key rebounds btw.

The Nets going to Iso Joe on back to back plays down the stretch with the game on the line was mind boggling. JJ has hit a bunch of clutch shots during his tenure with the Nets but I'm not going in that direction with Bron on him and the game in the balance.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Will ultimately pass Jordan to be considered the greatest ever...

He's certainly the best player I've seen since Jordan in his prime. I'd love to see Jordan vs. LeBron, 1v1, in their respective primes.

 

[dogfan96]

he's roughly the same weight as Dirk.

Not close.. he's listed at 240 in his bio but if he's 240 I'm 340

 

[tzznandrew]

Will ultimately pass Jordan to be considered the greatest ever...

We'll see about that. Jordan won an MVP and a DPOY award in the same year. I think it is going to be very hard to get much closer in titles unless he completely changes teams--and he's 29 this year: Kobe won his most recent (read, last) at 31. Jordan did so at 35, so there's a chance...but I guess I'm skeptical.

He'll probably end up with more MVPs than Jordan, but that's because we're in an era that discusses these things more heavily, and people tend to not be okay with just giving the award to someone out of fatigue. Jordan should have had 7, but ended with 5 because people decided to go with Barkley and Malone in 1993 and 1997. Meanwhile, Durant clearly had a better statistical year than LeBron this year, so it was reasonable to give it to him.

I agree with the person who said that he was the best in the post-Jordan era. That group is 1) LeBron, 2) Duncan, and then Kobe and Shaq (I can listen to either order there). And I'll never say he won't catch Jordan...but I'll be interested to see him try.

 

[dogfan96]

The Nets going to Iso Joe on back to back plays down the stretch with the game on the line was mind boggling. JJ has hit a bunch of clutch shots during his tenure with the Nets but I'm not going in that direction with Bron on him and the game in the balance.

LeBron had 5 fouls so they felt like he wouldn't be as aggressive defensively and JJ could get a good shot. I don't necessarily agree but that was their line of thinking.

 

[bballgrda]

LeBron should have won the MVP the year Rose did

 

[nomar]

We'll see about that. Jordan won an MVP and a DPOY award in the same year. I think it is going to be very hard to get much closer in titles unless he completely changes teams--and he's 29 this year: Kobe won his most recent (read, last) at 31. Jordan did so at 35, so there's a chance...but I guess I'm skeptical.

He'll probably end up with more MVPs than Jordan, but that's because we're in an era that discusses these things more heavily, and people tend to not be okay with just giving the award to someone out of fatigue. Jordan should have had 7, but ended with 5 because people decided to go with Barkley and Malone in 1993 and 1997. Meanwhile, Durant clearly had a better statistical year than LeBron this year, so it was reasonable to give it to him.

I agree with the person who said that he was the best in the post-Jordan era. That group is 1) LeBron, 2) Duncan, and then Kobe and Shaq (I can listen to either order there). And I'll never say he won't catch Jordan...but I'll be interested to see him try.

I agree with all that.

I think LeBron could catch MJ if he ends up winning a bunch more titles -- either in Miami or elsewhere. As Wade gets more and more run down, LeBron is going to have carry more of the weight (assuming they stay together). If he does that and wins a handful of additional titles, that could end up elevating LeBron's legacy to MJ's level. It's hard to envision any scenario where he passes MJ unless he wins 7 titles.

 

[Kitaman]

He's certainly the best player I've seen since Jordan in his prime. I'd love to see Jordan vs. LeBron, 1v1, in their respective primes.

I think he is the type of player you have to see in person (good seats) to appreciate. I will try and see him play live, as he is the only player above all of our alumni that a person shouldn't miss seeing once in their lifetime. I made the mistake with Michael, I don't want to repeat it with him. Greatness like that comes once in a generation.

It will never be answered who is the greatest, but if someone picked teams and they picked MJ first, and 'left me' with Lebron, there would not be one ounce of disappointment (and vice versa) or a wish to switch. Him and MJ are the only two modern day players that you can truly build Championship teams around with just decent spare parts (excluding Wade/Pippen).

I used to not care about Lebron, but he's such a great person that I wouldn't be bothered if he wins 7+ championships. Its not like he doesn't work hard to earn them, hell quite the opposite.

 

[dogfan96]

I agree with all that.

I think LeBron could catch MJ if he ends up winning a bunch more titles -- either in Miami or elsewhere. As Wade gets more and more run down, LeBron is going to have carry more of the weight (assuming they stay together). If he does that and wins a handful of additional titles, that could end up elevating LeBron's legacy to MJ's level. It's hard to envision any scenario where he passes MJ unless he wins 7 titles.

That was the thing about MJ.. he had a younger sidekick in Pippen so he didn't have to carry all of the load all the time as he got older. Wade is in decline. They'll have some roster flexibility this summer, depending on what the Big 3 do (all 3 can opt out.. and probably will).

 

[aceboon]

LeBron had 5 fouls so they felt like he wouldn't be as aggressive defensively and JJ could get a good shot. I don't necessarily agree but that was their line of thinking.

that is true, but in a way it seemed like they were more concerned with drawing the 6th foul on Bron than actually running any offense or getting a good look, it just stymied their whole attack there at the end.

 

[dogfan96]

that is true, but in a way it seemed like they were more concerned with drawing the 6th foul on Bron than actually running any offense or getting a good look, it just stymied their whole attack there at the end.

They play a lot of iso ball with JJ normally, especially in high-pressure situations. Just so happens he has to go against the best player in the world here. Not an ideal way to make your living

 

[tzznandrew]

LeBron should have won the MVP the year Rose did

Indeed, he was the better statistical player that year. But, I think there was a more reasonable argument for Rose than there was for either Barkley or Malone. Rose's team had beaten LeBron's 3 times in the year, and had the best record in the Eastern Conference, despite clearly not being as talented as the Heat. And it's not like LeBron led in any of the basic statistical categories (scoring, assists, rebounds) which really shouldn't matter much, but they do. It was still the wrong call, but I think more defensible than either of Jordan's losses.

You can perhaps make the argument with Barkley (his team did have the better record although Jordan still led the league in scoring [and PER and WS] by a mile), but to give Malone the MVP over Jordan when Jordan's team won 69 games? Ridiculous.

 

[Inyatkin]

Indeed, he was the better statistical player that year. But, I think there was a more reasonable argument for Rose than there was for either Barkley or Malone. Rose's team had beaten LeBron's 3 times in the year, and had the best record in the Eastern Conference, despite clearly not being as talented as the Heat. And it's not like LeBron led in any of the basic statistical categories (scoring, assists, rebounds) which really shouldn't matter much, but they do. It was still the wrong call, but I think more defensible than either of Jordan's losses.

You can perhaps make the argument with Barkley (his team did have the better record although Jordan still led the league in scoring [and PER and WS] by a mile), but to give Malone the MVP over Jordan when Jordan's team won 69 games? Ridiculous.

Karl Malone's MVP was a consolation prize if there ever was one. Like Sammy Sosa winning it in '98.

 

[dogfan96]

Indeed, he was the better statistical player that year. But, I think there was a more reasonable argument for Rose than there was for either Barkley or Malone. Rose's team had beaten LeBron's 3 times in the year, and had the best record in the Eastern Conference, despite clearly not being as talented as the Heat. And it's not like LeBron led in any of the basic statistical categories (scoring, assists, rebounds) which really shouldn't matter much, but they do. It was still the wrong call, but I think more defensible than either of Jordan's losses.

You can perhaps make the argument with Barkley (his team did have the better record although Jordan still led the league in scoring [and PER and WS] by a mile), but to give Malone the MVP over Jordan when Jordan's team won 69 games? Ridiculous.

Miami, outside of the Big 3, wasn't very talented that year. The rest of their rotation was Chalmers, Haslem, Mike Bibby (fully washed up, but actually started a good bit of the year), Erick Dampier (ditto), Big Z (ditto), Eddie House (ditto), Joel Anthony, James Jones, and Mike Miller (injured pretty much all year). They made major upgrades the next season with Shane Battier, Norris Cole, and Rony Turiaf, a healthy Mike Miller (relatively) and of course Ray Allen the following summer.

 

[tzznandrew]

Miami, outside of the Big 3, wasn't very talented that year. The rest of their rotation was Chalmers, Haslem, Mike Bibby (fully washed up, but actually started a good bit of the year), Erick Dampier (ditto), Big Z (ditto), Eddie House (ditto), Joel Anthony, James Jones, and Mike Miller (injured pretty much all year). They made major upgrades the next season with Shane Battier, Norris Cole, and Rony Turiaf, a healthy Mike Miller (relatively) and of course Ray Allen the following summer.

Except when you have three players the caliber of James, Wade, and Bosh, those things don't matter as much. Rose was playing with Noah, Deng, and Boozer. Noah has blossomed since, but none of those guys were of the caliber of 2011 Wade or Bosh.

LeBron averaged 26.7
Wade averaged 25.5
Bosh averaged 18.7

In contrast:

Rose averaged 25
Boozer averaged 17.5
Deng averaged 17.4
Noah averaged 11.7

So...LeBron played with another go to scorer...and Bosh was also one. He averaged 24ppg the year before, whereas the most any of Rose's teammates averaged was 21.1 by Boozer 3 years prior.

In contrast, look at Jordan's team 1993 team. Scottie Pippen was the only one to average more than 20 ppg before. Horace Grant maxed out at 15 with Orlando, BJ Armstrong maxed out at 14.8 the year Jordan retired, and Bill Cartwright had maxed out in the early 1980s. Take a look at his team. I'll say you can say Wade and Pippen are washes (although I'd argue Pippen is better...much better defender but not quite the scorer). Take a look at the rest of the roster...it's kind of terrifying: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993.html

 

[dogfan96]

Except when you have three players the caliber of James, Wade, and Bosh, those things don't matter as much. Rose was playing with Noah, Deng, and Boozer. Noah has blossomed since, but none of those guys were of the caliber of 2011 Wade or Bosh.

LeBron averaged 26.7
Wade averaged 25.5
Bosh averaged 18.7

In contrast:

Rose averaged 25
Boozer averaged 17.5
Deng averaged 17.4
Noah averaged 11.7

So...LeBron played with another go to scorer...and Bosh was also one. He averaged 24ppg the year before, whereas the most any of Rose's teammates averaged was 21.1 by Boozer 3 years prior.

In contrast, look at Jordan's team 1993 team. Scottie Pippen was the only one to average more than 20 ppg before. Horace Grant maxed out at 15 with Orlando, BJ Armstrong maxed out at 14.8 the year Jordan retired, and Bill Cartwright had maxed out in the early 1980s. Take a look at his team. I'll say you can say Wade and Pippen are washes (although I'd argue Pippen is better...much better defender but not quite the scorer). Take a look at the rest of the roster...it's kind of terrifying: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993.html

I don't disagree with any of that. Just saying the Big 3 carried a Herculean load that year. The Bulls weren't as talented offensively but they had a lot of good young players (throw in Taj Gibson) and they were a great defensive team too. Miami was pretty much the Big 3, a green Mario Chalmers (he couldn't even beat out Mike Bibby, who had a huge fork sticking out of his back all year) and a bunch of old, washed up vets. They couldn't really run a lot of "good" offense bc they couldn't really rely on anybody outside of the Big 3. When it came to crunch time, they basically said LeBron go guard the other team's best player (and he proceeded to put the clamps on Derrick Rose.. I've never seen a superstar player so dejected afterwards.. I still remember his quote "It's frustrating when a 6'8 guy can guard you easily") and on offense, they did what OKC is doing now. LeBron and Wade alternated playing hero ball and they were so good that it worked until they went up against Dallas, who had an excellent game plan for them.

 

[champs99and04]

Except when you have three players the caliber of James, Wade, and Bosh, those things don't matter as much. Rose was playing with Noah, Deng, and Boozer. Noah has blossomed since, but none of those guys were of the caliber of 2011 Wade or Bosh.

LeBron averaged 26.7
Wade averaged 25.5
Bosh averaged 18.7

In contrast:

Rose averaged 25
Boozer averaged 17.5
Deng averaged 17.4
Noah averaged 11.7

So...LeBron played with another go to scorer...and Bosh was also one. He averaged 24ppg the year before, whereas the most any of Rose's teammates averaged was 21.1 by Boozer 3 years prior.

In contrast, look at Jordan's team 1993 team. Scottie Pippen was the only one to average more than 20 ppg before. Horace Grant maxed out at 15 with Orlando, BJ Armstrong maxed out at 14.8 the year Jordan retired, and Bill Cartwright had maxed out in the early 1980s. Take a look at his team. I'll say you can say Wade and Pippen are washes (although I'd argue Pippen is better...much better defender but not quite the scorer). Take a look at the rest of the roster...it's kind of terrifying: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993.html

It's true that Wade and Bosh were better than anybody on the Bulls that year (sans Rose), but 1-12, the Bulls were the much more complete team. In Carlos Arroyo, the Heat were literally starting a D-Leaguer at point guard for a large chunk of the year, and two of their key reserves (Miller and Haslem) were out for basically the entire season as dogfan said.

The Rose MVP is something that made a lot more sense at the time than it does in hindsight. For one, it was the first (or second?) year of the Thibs era, so we weren't quite aware yet of how great a coach he was (even though I'm pretty sure he won COY). Rose was part of the reason that team was great, sure. But three things that win in the regular season more than anything else - depth, coaching, and youth - the Bulls had in spades that year. If you were devising a roster to win in the regular season, I'm easily taking a Rose/Boozer/Noah/Deng core with the best bench in the league over James/Bosh/Wade with D-League players and washouts 4-12.

 

[Matrim55]

If you were devising a roster to win in the regular season, I'm easily taking a Rose/Boozer/Noah/Deng core with the best bench in the league over James/Bosh/Wade with D-League players and washouts 4-12.

Really well put.

Also worth keeping in mind when discussing Jordan's early Bulls teams. A core of Jordan, Pippen and Grant with two floor-spacing guards (Armstrong and Paxson) and two good rebounder/smart defender bigs (Cartwright and Williams).

That is a team built to annihilate all comers in the playoffs. Everybody had a role, everybody knew it.

The Heat are close to the same thing now, though I still think they lack talent outside the Big 3, Ray and - to a lesser extent - Chalmers.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Durant may eventually lift the game to a new level, but right now Lebron plays a different game than everyone else. The great/bad thing is he makes brilliance look so ho-hum. Easy to take Lebron for granted.