OT: Lawyers of the Boneyard: Employee-Employer Problems

[Rocktheworld]

How many hours a week is she working? Is she paid hourly with OT kicker or salaried? How was her last review?

Her last review was great, again, they love her. She is full time salaried, often works beyond the clock without OT

 

[B1GEast]

This is a good situation to be in. She holds all the leverage. If she’s asked for a promotion/raise but didn’t get one, then force them to give her one. Start looking for another job (which she also now has a lot of interesting and relevant talking points during interviews). Her company will then realize it’ll cost much more to replace her than promote her, and ideally they’d do the smart/right thing. But sounds like this company doesn’t fully value their employees and she might as well jump ship to another anyways.

Obviously an oversimplification and a lot more factors go into it, but it’s essentially what I would do in that situation. As one of the UConn accounting professors used to say, never say no to your money.

Knowledge power is one of the least understood forms of power as far as knowing how to leverage it in the corporate world.

If you understand a unique function or have a skill set that is vital to your position or the company, you can indeed exploit that significantly to your advantage until the company can find a suitable alternative which can be a long time or never if a process is truly unique. How many people know Fortran or Cobalt programming?

 

[2014DualCs]

Might be very naive of me to say, but I would outright say she worked as "x" on her resume and to prospective employers. If she's actively fulfilling all the job responsibilities of that higher position, whose to say she's not a, for example, Director of Finance vs. Financial Analyst? When getting interviewed and questioned on this, she should be able to easily explain all the job responsibilities that made her a "Director of Finance."

Tell her to keep records of the job posting, and its relative job responsibilities, to allow her the chance to show that she indeed was that position without officially being named that by the company/within HR (in case prospective employers call her previous employer).

In terms of the immediate question at hand, I would lean towards the employer screwing her over as she's helping their bottom line. A little leverage would go a long way!

GL

 

[Waquoit]

Congratulations

I realize I've been brusque here but I was having unpleasant flashbacks of all the times I've heard similar stories. Couple times being stuck next to a guy at the pub going on and on. I had a friend make a stink (granted >20 years ago) and they canned his ass. Like others have said, unless there's a union involved, chances are gentle persuasion is the best bet, imo. That and incorporate the new duties into the new resume.

 

[husky429]

No she is literally doing a different role at this point. She submitted an entire comparison between her official title and its responsibilities, and the title and responsibilities she’s actually been doing. Her direct leadership designated her as the role she knows she’s been doing in a meeting with a client. They are having her perform a job and paying her about 30-40k less than they should.

Update that resume with all the new duties and start searching for a job that has those roles. Job descriptions aren't contracts--just guidelines for hiring.

 

[SubbaBub]

If any of the above mentioned are not high enough in the chain, it doesn't matter much.

You could have a ton of support, but if it's not at the C Suite level, it's probably not going to help unless they are very influential, which some are.

This is where understanding the internal politics and culture of your organization are paramount.

Talking to someone else who is just filling a seat isn't going to get you anywhere, but I guarantee that there are people in the organization who have influence with the ultimate decision maker(s).

If the employee is considered valuable then there is room to maneuver (not demand or even negotiate). And by valuable, I mean not easily replaced, well liked and respected by co-workers, clients, managers, and can be expected to thrive in an elevated role that would justify a bump in pay.

Best way to do that? Can this be tied to increasing revenue, profit, or sales? If the answer is yes, then there is a strong case if the decision maker can see it too.

If this is just about I'm moving more paper than I used to, then it's likely not going to succeed given the existing denial.

Getting more done with less is the manager's job, something that would suggest a raise is in order. It's still called capitalism.

That said, if she is unhappy with her work, company, compensation, or feels there has been an irreversible change in the employer/employee relationship, it's time to look elsewhere.

Not everyone will be happy at work, it's called work, but I wouldn't recommend anyone blindly stay in a bad situation.

Forgot to add this. That old position shouldn't be mentioned at all. It was deemed too expensive and expendable for a reason. Not part of the conversation you wish to have.

 

[SubbaBub]

Her last review was great, again, they love her. She is full time salaried, often works beyond the clock without OT

That's excellent, just beware the overly flowery review. They do exist. I suggest she come up with a plan to approach the most empathetic figure in her chain of command or go back to the source and ask, what can I do to show I'm worth more to this organization. If they can't answer that question, it's another red flag.

She should also be prepared to learn that it might just be a money problem, as in there is none. Most businesses are poorly run because people don't know how to run them and they fall into the trap of cutting spending and not investing in future (staff is a big part of this) and they level out or slowly suffocate.

Then again, maybe the owner has an outside interest problem sucking resources.

 

[JohnFSilver]

Hello everyone,

I don’t want to go into anything too specific publicly, but would greatly appreciate it if someone with some experience could DM me about a situation my wife is in at work.

To make the story as short as possible, my wife works for a company that used to have a specific position that compensates nicely. My wife was hired to the company at a lower level, when nobody was holding said position. Over time, has been slowly nudged into essentially doing said role, at a much lower level of compensation and with the same job title she was hired as. She came to find out she was doing this other, higher level job, and has been trying to get a title change and commensurate raise. This involved her submitting a whole document regarding the roles of the position and basically detailed how she has been fulfilling said position already. The company is, obviously, not going along with things like they morally should; and I would like to know what legal steps may be available to us to ensure she is appropriately compensated for her work.

Thanks to anyone game to help

Have some knowledge of area. Not a lawyer, but supported HR.

This is why unions were invented.

If you dont have a union or a contract, there is nothing out there that says you have to be paid adequately for your job. Jobs are at will.

That said, if there is a discrimination angle here, I would explore it. For example, if she is the only female in the place, and is paid half for doing the same job… that's something to bring to HR.

Also, big companies are typically committed to providing pay equity. If this is a big employer, HR will have a comp review procedure and determine if you are operating out of grade and market.

Smaller employer? SOL. Unless there is a discrimination factor the only way to get anywhere is to bring it up to management and challenge them. They can say take a hike. And you can take a hike, or don't take a hike.

At will.

Lastly. HR is not a neutral party. They are there to protect the company interest.

You can say this corporate speak:

I would like to discuss roles and responsibilities and update the job description and level the role to accurately explain my contribution to the organization.

 

[Letsgohuskies11]

Hello everyone,

I don’t want to go into anything too specific publicly, but would greatly appreciate it if someone with some experience could DM me about a situation my wife is in at work.

To make the story as short as possible, my wife works for a company that used to have a specific position that compensates nicely. My wife was hired to the company at a lower level, when nobody was holding said position. Over time, has been slowly nudged into essentially doing said role, at a much lower level of compensation and with the same job title she was hired as. She came to find out she was doing this other, higher level job, and has been trying to get a title change and commensurate raise. This involved her submitting a whole document regarding the roles of the position and basically detailed how she has been fulfilling said position already. The company is, obviously, not going along with things like they morally should; and I would like to know what legal steps may be available to us to ensure she is appropriately compensated for her work.

Thanks to anyone game to help

I work in compensation. Does her company have an HR team? That's who I would be going to first. If not, go to employee counsel. But yeah if she's at an will employee, not sure how much power she will have but she should also fight to argue she is performing work of another level. Also is she an hourly employee or earns a salary?

 

[Greedo]

My wife was in a similar situation. She said peace and found a company that gave her the title she deserved with a 100% pay increase. She’s also trying to go back, so be careful what you wish for I guess. Don’t sue, that will just blacklist her in her industry.

 

[UConnRock]

An employee is never in a more powerful position and never knows their true value to the employer until he/she has an offer from another employer and is willing to walk out the door. It is mentally challenging to start looking and interviewing, and never fun to give notice and switch jobs. However, if your wife thinks she is being underpaid and being taken advantage of then the joy of working there slowly diminishes.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I work in compensation. Does her company have an HR team? That's who I would be going to first. If not, go to employee counsel. But yeah if she's at an will employee, not sure how much power she will have but she should also fight to argue she is performing work of another level. Also is she an hourly employee or earns a salary?

Salaried. Yes they have HR but she didn’t want to go around chain of command to HR (yet), figured that would cause a bad response. What would that fight/argument look like? Please feel free to DM me if that’s easier

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Hello everyone,

I don’t want to go into anything too specific publicly, but would greatly appreciate it if someone with some experience could DM me about a situation my wife is in at work.

To make the story as short as possible, my wife works for a company that used to have a specific position that compensates nicely. My wife was hired to the company at a lower level, when nobody was holding said position. Over time, has been slowly nudged into essentially doing said role, at a much lower level of compensation and with the same job title she was hired as. She came to find out she was doing this other, higher level job, and has been trying to get a title change and commensurate raise. This involved her submitting a whole document regarding the roles of the position and basically detailed how she has been fulfilling said position already. The company is, obviously, not going along with things like they morally should; and I would like to know what legal steps may be available to us to ensure she is appropriately compensated for her work.

Thanks to anyone game to help

Let me start with: I agree with everyone who said getting a lawyer involved is a bad idea unless there is some kind of union work rules issue we don't know about. There is no upside, and there is lots of downside.

It is a seller's market for skilled labor, and likely will be for a long time. Watch out for old-timers that give you advice for how things were back in the day, when the workforce was growing 2.5 to 3.0% a year and the number of college graduates was growing even faster. It was a buyer's market back then for labor. Now, the population is aging rapidly and population growth is slowing dramatically. The US is at an all time high of % of population employed. 330,000 or so people will reach 65 every month for about the next 20 years. One of the underrated phenomena in the labor market is the fact that the stock market is way up over the last 40 or so years, while life expectancy has flat-lined. People do not want to die at their desk, and many people who never made it to the upper reaches of their professions still have very nice savings as a result of the stock market appreciation. I am seeing a lot more GenXers downsize their life and spending, and careers, in anticipation of an early retirement.

In other words, an aging and retiring work force is a problem for many companies and they are planning accordingly. A young employee (I think you and wife are in early 30's) that is performing well has value to a company.

As for your specific situation, I have seen all the gimmicks to get a bigger raise, and some work better than others, but the best thing she can do is talk to her boss, and loop her boss' boss in, and make her case. She may win the day and get a raise and promotion. She may find out that the previous person who was getting paid more could do things she couldn't, or maybe that person was just overpaid for the value they brought to the company, and the company is normalizing compensation for that role. She may find out that there is resistance in the company to her getting a promotion or a raise, and it is good to know that sooner than later because that problem does not generally go away. A high probability answer is they will split the difference going forward somewhere between what she makes now and what the prior person in the position made.

The labor markets are much more efficient and transparent than they were 10 or 20 or certainly 30 years ago. Companies know they have to pay for good people, and, at least anecdotally, they are more proactive at dealing with underperformers, no matter how politically connected those underperformers are. In other words, they will know if there is a disconnect in her work and her compensation. That said, they are not going to volunteer to pay her more, so she should make the case rationally and analytically why she deserves more, and the chips will fall where they may.

 

[Rocktheworld]

An employee is never in a more powerful position and never knows their true value to the employer until he/she has an offer from another employer and is willing to walk out the door. It is mentally challenging to start looking and interviewing, and never fun to give notice and switch jobs. However, if your wife thinks she is being underpaid and being taken advantage of then the joy of working there slowly diminishes.

I am encouraging her. She is just stuck on the fact that she still has this old title and therefore wouldn’t be able to move to the position she is in now at a new company; I’m telling her to put a CV together to highlight the projects she’s run

 

[SubbaBub]

Salaried. Yes they have HR but she didn’t want to go around chain of command to HR (yet), figured that would cause a bad response. What would that fight/argument look like? Please feel free to DM me if that’s easier

It would look bad. Best bet is work on her CoC and her resume.

 

[SubbaBub]

I am encouraging her. She is just stuck on the fact that she still has this old title and therefore wouldn’t be able to move to the position she is in now at a new company; I’m telling her to put a CV together to highlight the projects she’s run

Job titles mean little. If she can back up her qualifications and experience, a good employer will recognize it. Again, be sure she meets most of not all of the requirements for a higher level or she may end up disappointed.

She'll also need a story about why she wasn't promoted at her old firm. There is a needle to thread, so be careful. I'd go with budget.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Have some knowledge of area. Not a lawyer, but supported HR.

This is why unions were invented.

If you dont have a union or a contract, there is nothing out there that says you have to be paid adequately for your job. Jobs are at will.

That said, if there is a discrimination angle here, I would explore it. For example, if she is the only female in the place, and is paid half for doing the same job… that's something to bring to HR.

There won’t be a discrimination angle, she works with another female in this exact same position. Through all this, they have essentially both requested the title change. There was no way for the wife to do this quietly so her coworker wouldn’t know about it.

Also, big companies are typically committed to providing pay equity. If this is a big employer, HR will have a comp review procedure and determine if you are operating out of grade and market.

This is what I figured. It’s not a huge operation but the company’s reach in their industry is massive.

I would like to discuss roles and responsibilities and update the job description and level the role to accurately explain my contribution to the organization.

Yeah she already did this, submitted an entire presentation of sorts to her immediate leadership, who then sent it up to CEO, which is where things are hitting resistance.

 

[husky429]

There won’t be a discrimination angle, she works with another female in this exact same position. Through all this, they have essentially both requested the title change. There was no way for the wife to do this quietly so her coworker wouldn’t know about it.

This is what I figured. It’s not a huge operation but the company’s reach in their industry is massive.

Yeah she already did this, submitted an entire presentation of sorts to her immediate leadership, who then sent it up to CEO, which is where things are hitting resistance.

Even if there was a discrimination angle, it's expensive as hell with low likelihood of success.

It sucks, but she's just gotta understand that they're under no obligation to pay her more. She's also under no obligation to work for them any more. Dust off the resume and update with new skills.

Employer and employee loyalty doesn't exist any more. Corporate America is a hellscape where souls go to die.

 

[DRBackup]

Hello everyone,

I don’t want to go into anything too specific publicly, but would greatly appreciate it if someone with some experience could DM me about a situation my wife is in at work.

To make the story as short as possible, my wife works for a company that used to have a specific position that compensates nicely. My wife was hired to the company at a lower level, when nobody was holding said position. Over time, has been slowly nudged into essentially doing said role, at a much lower level of compensation and with the same job title she was hired as. She came to find out she was doing this other, higher level job, and has been trying to get a title change and commensurate raise. This involved her submitting a whole document regarding the roles of the position and basically detailed how she has been fulfilling said position already. The company is, obviously, not going along with things like they morally should; and I would like to know what legal steps may be available to us to ensure she is appropriately compensated for her work.

Thanks to anyone game to help

Indeed, there are few things more infuriating than working in an "interim" capacity. Though, in this case, it sounds like even that would be an improvement.

 

[NJHusky]

I am encouraging her. She is just stuck on the fact that she still has this old title and therefore wouldn’t be able to move to the position she is in now at a new company; I’m telling her to put a CV together to highlight the projects she’s run

The title doesn’t matter much imo. When I was actively hiring, I looked for folks with the title/skill set which means they prob didn’t know my industry or someone who knew the industry and was moving up a level.

Changing employment is a VERY common way to get the bump in salary/title and is someone that I would view as an A player. Was always more cautious about someone willing to make a later move.

 

[Palatine]

Hello everyone,

I don’t want to go into anything too specific publicly, but would greatly appreciate it if someone with some experience could DM me about a situation my wife is in at work.

To make the story as short as possible, my wife works for a company that used to have a specific position that compensates nicely. My wife was hired to the company at a lower level, when nobody was holding said position. Over time, has been slowly nudged into essentially doing said role, at a much lower level of compensation and with the same job title she was hired as. She came to find out she was doing this other, higher level job, and has been trying to get a title change and commensurate raise. This involved her submitting a whole document regarding the roles of the position and basically detailed how she has been fulfilling said position already. The company is, obviously, not going along with things like they morally should; and I would like to know what legal steps may be available to us to ensure she is appropriately compensated for her work.

Thanks to anyone game to help

First, morality doesn't come into it.

The company created the job. They can compensate it however they want. They can also probably define the work your wife does in some way where it does not fit the higher paying job. Also she may or may not fit the qualifications of the higher paying position even if she is doing the work. The company has a lot of room to maneuver. Legally you're on the short end.

However, if your wife is doing the work, she does have some leverage. The best leverage would be a job offer from another company.

 

[G0UCONN]

Hello everyone,

I don’t want to go into anything too specific publicly, but would greatly appreciate it if someone with some experience could DM me about a situation my wife is in at work.

To make the story as short as possible, my wife works for a company that used to have a specific position that compensates nicely. My wife was hired to the company at a lower level, when nobody was holding said position. Over time, has been slowly nudged into essentially doing said role, at a much lower level of compensation and with the same job title she was hired as. She came to find out she was doing this other, higher level job, and has been trying to get a title change and commensurate raise. This involved her submitting a whole document regarding the roles of the position and basically detailed how she has been fulfilling said position already. The company is, obviously, not going along with things like they morally should; and I would like to know what legal steps may be available to us to ensure she is appropriately compensated for her work.

Thanks to anyone game to help

Legally not seeing a legitimate claim here unless (1) she has a written contract, (2) she is part of a union and this violates the collective bargaining agreement, (3) she can claim the reason for her treatment is retaliation for something legally protected she did at work such as filing or raising a complaint, (4) she can claim gender or age discrimination such as where men in her role and same situation at the company are paid more. All are tough cases to make except for 1 and 2 and my guess is neither applies and doubtful there is a real good chance with 3 or 4. Best move if not happy is to seek another job. If she gets another offer and they like her and don't want to lose her, at that point they will offer her more money to stay. Then she has a choice to make.

 

[CTMike]

Legal is all downside. HR is there to protect company’s interest not employee’s. And titles do matter - anyone who says otherwise is ignorant or hasn’t looked for a job in the last 10 years. Of course you can overcome anything with connections persistence and luck - but reality is nearly all first pass job screening is automated in some way, and you better have the right keywords. Good luck.

 

[J187Money]

I have a ton of empathy. I'm Mr. Empathy. But the OP wanted advice not a hug. I've have seen and heard this same exact story so many times it blurs. And the story is always the same. Make hay at your own risk.

I thought you were Mr. Positive

 

[J187Money]

Work the system the best you can (and professionally) and look for another job at the same time. When she leaves, they might counter her if what she is doing matters enough to them.