Lack of fouls called= enjoyable game

[Teacherdeb]

I’ve rewatched the OK game a few times, and what stood out to me was the way the game was called. There were numerous plays, particularly by Olivia, that I would have expected to have been called fouls, which would have changed the game considerably. I’m not saying they were fouls, just what usually gets called by women’s basketball refs. In one play, Olivia rebounded the ball over the head of an OK player- not a foul and not called, but I’ve seen that called a foul more often than not.
So I’m interested in other opinions- I think the combination of Olivia’s height and the refs’ letting them play led to liv’s great game. Good for her confidence and growth, but also a perfect storm.

 

[EricLA]

You make a good point - I'd have to put the plays side by side to compare - one time called a foul, one time not. I don't disagree that some refs are far more "free" with the whistle blowing, and tend to agree that the "drawing a charge" play is called way more often than it should be (I know you were referring to over the back rebounds but...)

Just my $.02, but if the defender is moving even a little bit, it should not be called a charge. Many of the rules that were implemented over the past several years were to increase the offensive production in helping clear out the lane for more scoring opportunities. Teams who consistently try to draw charges are just bad for the flow of the game, and more often than not, are either still moving on defense, or fake fall (which the refs often mistake for a real foul).

I think Williams has suffered from 2nd guessing herself for all the charging fouls she's been called for (some of which, by the way, are justified IMHO, but others not so much). At any rate, you don't want a game to deteriorate into a physical "bloodbath", but I totally agree on the over the back, and the phantom fouls / still moving defender (or ones called when all the offending player does is "breathe" on the other player) are not good for the game either...

 

[Carnac]

I’ve rewatched the OK game a few times, and what stood out to me was the way the game was called. There were numerous plays, particularly by Olivia, that I would have expected to have been called fouls, which would have changed the game considerably. I’m not saying they were fouls, just what usually gets called by women’s basketball refs. In one play, Olivia rebounded the ball over the head of an OK player- not a foul and not called, but I’ve seen that called a foul more often than not.
So I’m interested in other opinions- I think the combination of Olivia’s height and the refs’ letting them play led to liv’s great game. Good for her confidence and growth, but also a perfect storm.

Great observation, I noticed that too. I’d like to have this crew call all of our games the rest of the year. The calls would be consistent if nothing else. I didn’t notice any calls that were blatantly wrong.

This crew did a very good job. Anytime you have a game, and the referees almost disappear (their calls don’t determine the outcome of the game), the game is entertaining and fun to watch.

Everytime you rewatched the game, I’ll bet you saw something you missed the first time.

 

[eebmg]

Of course, less fouls is the ideal but you can't expect it and you have to deal with all styles of refereeing (including the inconsistent style).

Liv of course is the player we are most concerned with. Completely irreplaceable (Meg a close second), she needs to be on the floor.

I think she has made great strides in improving her defensive blocking technique and her timing is becoming even more impressive.

On the other hand, I am worried with Liv's moves in the post. In the early part of the season, her spins off a defender were often aided by a pretty obvious hooking movement by Liv (many of which were rightly called). I think she has improved in that category by using far less pressure on her hooking motion and it seems she is using it more for balance that uprooting her defender but she still does it so it is possible that some referee's will call that.

To combat, Liv needs to improve her counter moves which she already is starting to and also go to the fadeaway at times. It is funny how people get riled up about that move as being 'soft' but it is an excellent move that she clearly has a great deal of confidence in.

Liv is going to be a target for all our opponents to get in early foul trouble. We need to find as many ways to protect her as we can.

 

[Huskee11]

I was at the OK game and I agree. The refs let a lot of incidental contact go. It was a well officiated game.

Christyn might not agree, as she picked up some ticky tack fouls in the first half that sent her to the bench with three.

There are times when refs have to assert themselves. Most UCF games, for example. This was not one of those times.

 

[Carnac]

You make a good point - I'd have to put the plays side by side to compare - one time called a foul, one time not. I don't disagree that some refs are far more "free" with the whistle blowing, and tend to agree that the "drawing a charge" play is called way more often than it should be (I know you were referring to over the back rebounds but...)

Just my $.02, but if the defender is moving even a little bit, it should not be called a charge. Many of the rules that were implemented over the past several years were to increase the offensive production in helping clear out the lane for more scoring opportunities. Teams who consistently try to draw charges are just bad for the flow of the game, and more often than not, are either still moving on defense, or fake fall (which the refs often mistake for a real foul).

I think Williams has suffered from 2nd guessing herself for all the charging fouls she's been called for (some of which, by the way, are justified IMHO, but others not so much). At any rate, you don't want a game to deteriorate into a physical "bloodbath", but I totally agree on the over the back, and the phantom fouls / still moving defender (or ones called when all the offending player does is "breathe" on the other player) are not good for the game either...

Eric, I agree with your take on players drawing charging fouls. Times gave changed. When I played high school and college bb, the hard fast rule was you had to be established AND give them a step to draw a charging foul. Your feet could not be moving, and you could not be leaning. You had to beat the player to the spot.

Even way back then, it was funny to see the “floppers” start leaning backwards BEFORE any contact was made. Not so today. I’ve seen players draw charging fouls while they and their feet were still moving. SMH.

I played a lot of basketball during those years. You’d see the same referees over and over. After a while, you knew how they were going to call the game. You knew exactly what you could get away with, and what you couldn’t.

I must admit, most of them were fairly consistent. Of course there was always that one ref that was out of control, and consistently made some of the worst calls ever. You know, the one that would always cause your coach to get tee’d up. You hated to have him call your game.

Charging/blocking calls are really not that hard to make. The player is either established or not. That means BOTH feet flat on the floor, and not leaning or sticking a body part out (arm, elbow, knee, etc).

 

[donalddoowop]

If the defender beats the opposing player to a spot, it is legal to be move afterward. How can a player play defense if not allowed to move their feet. Both feet don't have to be on the floor as long the position was established in time. A defensive player can move sideways or backwards, but not forward. If the defender is waiting for the offensive player to come to them, then they are not allowed to move unless it's backwards. if the defender is guarding the offensive player around the floor, that player is allowed to move as long as it is not forward and they beat the offensive player to a spot. The block charge IS the most difficult call to make. It happens so fast. It's easy to make a call after reviewing watching playback, sometimes in slow motion. Believe me, it was the most difficult one for me when I officiated.

 

[BroadwayVa]

You make a good point - I'd have to put the plays side by side to compare - one time called a foul, one time not. I don't disagree that some refs are far more "free" with the whistle blowing, and tend to agree that the "drawing a charge" play is called way more often than it should be (I know you were referring to over the back rebounds but...)

Just my $.02, but if the defender is moving even a little bit, it should not be called a charge. Many of the rules that were implemented over the past several years were to increase the offensive production in helping clear out the lane for more scoring opportunities. Teams who consistently try to draw charges are just bad for the flow of the game, and more often than not, are either still moving on defense, or fake fall (which the refs often mistake for a real foul).

I think Williams has suffered from 2nd guessing herself for all the charging fouls she's been called for (some of which, by the way, are justified IMHO, but others not so much). At any rate, you don't want a game to deteriorate into a physical "bloodbath", but I totally agree on the over the back, and the phantom fouls / still moving defender (or ones called when all the offending player does is "breathe" on the other player) are not good for the game either...

Paragraphs 2 and 3: I only wish your desires were facts. I too think FEET movement especially should be considered in the Charge call then it depends on the extent of body movement to make contact. I'm no ref, did it a bit in my yoooth, so this is an uninformed FAN OPINION. You are correct on C.Williams the calls on her were not phantom calls. She is one heck of a scoring machine however. The Year Uconn played Ok for the championship they played in Hartford--those Refs, INMO, wanted TV time and blew blew blew until the crowd demanded they stop calling all those ticky tack fouls. Recently few games have been THat BAD and the recent games (last year and this) against ND have had few offensive fouls called against Uc--I detest the jumping in type of fouls. nuff sed

 

[JordyG]

You make a good point - I'd have to put the plays side by side to compare - one time called a foul, one time not. I don't disagree that some refs are far more "free" with the whistle blowing, and tend to agree that the "drawing a charge" play is called way more often than it should be (I know you were referring to over the back rebounds but...)

Just my $.02, but if the defender is moving even a little bit, it should not be called a charge. Many of the rules that were implemented over the past several years were to increase the offensive production in helping clear out the lane for more scoring opportunities. Teams who consistently try to draw charges are just bad for the flow of the game, and more often than not, are either still moving on defense, or fake fall (which the refs often mistake for a real foul).

I think Williams has suffered from 2nd guessing herself for all the charging fouls she's been called for (some of which, by the way, are justified IMHO, but others not so much). At any rate, you don't want a game to deteriorate into a physical "bloodbath", but I totally agree on the over the back, and the phantom fouls / still moving defender (or ones called when all the offending player does is "breathe" on the other player) are not good for the game either...

Paragraphs 2 and 3: I only wish your desires were facts. I too think FEET movement especially should be considered in the Charge call then it depends on the extent of body movement to make contact. I'm no ref, did it a bit in my yoooth, so this is an uninformed FAN OPINION. You are correct on C.Williams the calls on her were not phantom calls. She is one heck of a scoring machine however. The Year Uconn played Ok for the championship they played in Hartford--those Refs, INMO, wanted TV time and blew blew blew until the crowd demanded they stop calling all those ticky tack fouls. Recently few games have been THat BAD and the recent games (last year and this) against ND have had few offensive fouls called against Uc--I detest the jumping in type of fouls. nuff sed

I honestly agree with the rule as it stands. That is, a defending players feet can be moving as long as the player beats the offensive player to the intended spot. Now in basketball if the offensive player is moving directly toward the basket the call can be judgemental. However, if the player with the ball is moving diagonally that call is going to be called a defensive foul almost every time. My problem is when the defensive player is in the arc under the basket (and all it takes is for the back of the players foot to be touching the arc) and there's no call. Also no one seems to want to call these players for flopping, and it continues to be a viable, and effective strategy. Those things do irk me a bit.

I do agree though that I prefer to see the refs let them play, although Liv got mugged any number of times in the lane. It would've been nice to see her get a few more calls. Nevertheless, it was a good learning experience for her, and against smaller teams she'd better get used to it. She's also going to have to learn to drop step over her left shoulder when these bigger teams over play her to her right in the lane. When she gets a few shots smacked back in her face she'll get the hint.

As an aside, one of the things I noticed during the OK game was the rapport Liv and AG seem to be developing. During the game they seemed to find each other 5 or 6 times with nice passes when either Liv or AG cut hard to the basket. Something I really have yet to see CD develop with Liv. I'd really hoped that by now they'd find each other on the pick and roll, but that occurred only once during the game and that on a high pass that Liv almost flubbed. Yet AG and Liv just seem to have a natural affinity for each other. Nice to see.

 

[Carnac]

If the defender beats the opposing player to a spot, it is legal to be move afterward. How can a player play defense if not allowed to move their feet. Both feet don't have to be on the floor as long the position was established in time. A defensive player can move sideways or backwards, but not forward. If the defender is waiting for the offensive player to come to them, then they are not allowed to move unless it's backwards. if the defender is guarding the offensive player around the floor, that player is allowed to move as long as it is not forward and they beat the offensive player to a spot. The block charge IS the most difficult call to make. It happens so fast. It's easy to make a call after reviewing watching playback, sometimes in slow motion. Believe me, it was the most difficult one for me when I officiated.

Yes, in today’s game. I was referring to 50 years ago. A lot of the refs today weren’t even born yet. I understand what you’re saying, but I’m saying that was the rule back then. I fully understand that it’s not that way now. I was on both ends of many of those calls. Charge/ block plays are bang bang. I had a firm understanding of what I had to do to get a charging call.

Once you try to establish position to draw a foul, you don’t have to move. Usually if you do, you’re called for blocking. If a player just goes through you, that’s different.

It seems we’re talking about two different scenarios. Look at the OU game. At the 33 second mark in the first quarter, Kyla took a charge. She was set and not moving. Had she tried to move as you suggest, she probably would have been whistled for a block. She didn’t move because she didn’t have to, nor did she have time to. It was a split second move/call. She was playing good defense, she didn’t have to move.

 

[Carnac]

If the defender beats the opposing player to a spot, it is legal to be move afterward. How can a player play defense if not allowed to move their feet. Both feet don't have to be on the floor as long the position was established in time. A defensive player can move sideways or backwards, but not forward. If the defender is waiting for the offensive player to come to them, then they are not allowed to move unless it's backwards. if the defender is guarding the offensive player around the floor, that player is allowed to move as long as it is not forward and they beat the offensive player to a spot. The block charge IS the most difficult call to make. It happens so fast. It's easy to make a call after reviewing watching playback, sometimes in slow motion. Believe me, it was the most difficult one for me when I officiated.

what level did you officiate?

 

[JoePgh]

I've seen block calls made in UConn games that, in my opinion, should have been charges. Two common situations are:

1. When the offensive player drives into the shoulder or the side of the (stationary) defender, rather than directly into her chest. This is a charge, not a block -- there is no requirement that the offensive player must barrel directly into the center of the defender's chest to have committed a charge. Any significant contact is sufficient. (Most of these cases should probably be no-calls.)
2. When the offensive player passes the ball to a teammate an instant before making contact with the defender. This should be irrelevant -- possession of the ball is not required for a player to have committed a charge.

However, the most frequent bad call I see is when the referee forgets about the restricted area and calls a charge directly under the basket, where it should not be possible to commit a charge (unless the defender is the player's primary defender rather than a helpside defender).

 

[the Q]

You make a good point - I'd have to put the plays side by side to compare - one time called a foul, one time not. I don't disagree that some refs are far more "free" with the whistle blowing, and tend to agree that the "drawing a charge" play is called way more often than it should be (I know you were referring to over the back rebounds but...)

Just my $.02, but if the defender is moving even a little bit, it should not be called a charge. Many of the rules that were implemented over the past several years were to increase the offensive production in helping clear out the lane for more scoring opportunities. Teams who consistently try to draw charges are just bad for the flow of the game, and more often than not, are either still moving on defense, or fake fall (which the refs often mistake for a real foul).

I think Williams has suffered from 2nd guessing herself for all the charging fouls she's been called for (some of which, by the way, are justified IMHO, but others not so much). At any rate, you don't want a game to deteriorate into a physical "bloodbath", but I totally agree on the over the back, and the phantom fouls / still moving defender (or ones called when all the offending player does is "breathe" on the other player) are not good for the game either...

your second point goes completely against the concept of legal guarding position.

especially when you are moving backwards in some semblance.

 

[Kaizen]

Just watch the replay. This is a well officiated game. Uconn won by 44 pts, and just don'e see how refs would have changed the game considerably. As matter of fact, the game's first foul was against Liv when Crystal tried to pass the ball to Liv at 4:43 play time.

This is Liv's best game I have seen. Liv scored 27 pts and 15 rebs because her good offense and OK's poor defense not because the refs. Of course Liv's height does help.

As @JordyG wrote "During the game they seemed to find each other 5 or 6 times with nice passes when either Liv or AG cut hard to the basket. ". I see big developments and improvements from Liv and Aubrey.

 

[Carnac]

This charge/blocking debate is one we can discuss until the next game. A lot of bb fans see this differently. A charge that is seen by one fan is seen as a block by another. I played before the 3rd ref and the 3pt shot was added. We had as much fun playing the game back then as they do now.

 

[BroadwayVa]

I honestly agree with the rule as it stands. That is, a defending players feet can be moving as long as the player beats the offensive player to the intended spot. Now in basketball if the offensive player is moving directly toward the basket the call can be judgemental. However, if the player with the ball is moving diagonally that call is going to be called a defensive foul almost every time. My problem is when the defensive player is in the arc under the basket (and all it takes is for the back of the players foot to be touching the arc) and there's no call. Also no one seems to want to call these players for flopping, and it continues to be a viable, and effective strategy. Those things do irk me a bit.

I do agree though that I prefer to see the refs let them play, although Liv got mugged any number of times in the lane. It would've been nice to see her get a few more calls. Nevertheless, it was a good learning experience for her, and against smaller teams she'd better get used to it. She's also going to have to learn to drop step over her left shoulder when these bigger teams over play her to her right in the lane. When she gets a few shots smacked back in her face she'll get the hint.

As an aside, one of the things I noticed during the OK game was the rapport Liv and AG seem to be developing. During the game they seemed to find each other 5 or 6 times with nice passes when either Liv or AG cut hard to the basket. Something I really have yet to see CD develop with Liv. I'd really hoped that by now they'd find each other on the pick and roll, but that occurred only once during the game and that on a high pass that Liv almost flubbed. Yet AG and Liv just seem to have a natural affinity for each other. Nice to see.

On flopping and the rapport between Aubrey and Olivia developing that is great. Olivia it appears likes teaching. Thanks for the first paragraph I learned something. But I disagree with the Refs who fail to see and fail to call flopping. Because of the short bench that is now and has been the way to defeat Uconn so many try it. I don't mind coaches trying nearly anything, that is their job, but Refs have a job too.
As it approaches crepuscular I must sit and contemplate your first 2 paragraphs. Thanks @JordyG

 

[BroadwayVa]

This charge/blocking debate is one we can discuss until the next game. A lot of bb fans see this differently. A charge that is seen by one fan is seen as a block by another. I played before the 3rd ref and the 3pt shot was added. We had as much fun playing the game back then as they do now.

While I totally agree most fan may see each individual flopping, or even charge play differently I bet many would agree some changes with how the Refs call them is needed. Just an opinion, I haven't polled all fans... Ok, I admit it--I'm lazy!!

 

[donalddoowop]

what level did you officiate?

Boys and girls high school and women's college, but NAIA, not D1 college. Stopped because the fans, coaches, and players got too unruly. I found that the refs who called the game correctly caught more grief than the ones who called the game the way fans wanted them to.

 

[Centerstream]

I’ve rewatched the OK game a few times, and what stood out to me was the way the game was called. There were numerous plays, particularly by Olivia, that I would have expected to have been called fouls, which would have changed the game considerably. I’m not saying they were fouls, just what usually gets called by women’s basketball refs. In one play, Olivia rebounded the ball over the head of an OK player- not a foul and not called, but I’ve seen that called a foul more often than not.
So I’m interested in other opinions- I think the combination of Olivia’s height and the refs’ letting them play led to liv’s great game. Good for her confidence and growth, but also a perfect storm.

This, to me, is a very prominent part of the WCBB game - the ref blows the whistle because they "think" that a foul had to have happened. Quite a few times they are not in a position to see what actually happened but that doesn't matter.
And it seems to happen a lot more in the "big" games and with the "big" name refs.
It still bothers me that Lou was called for a "plus one" in a game against SC when A'Ja Wilson had a breakaway layup and a trailing ref blew the whistle and Lou wasn't any where near her, at least a foot away.
Even the announcers were speechless over the call.
Oh well, it is what it is.

 

[chrissaran]

Christyn is sometimes out of control when she drives the lane. She has to trust her pull up jumper and not try to do too much or make too difficult a play.

 

[Checkmate 2.0]

Great thread! Does Geno ever use refs in practice?

 

[the Q]

Boys and girls high school and women's college, but NAIA, not D1 college. Stopped because the fans, coaches, and players got too unruly. I found that the refs who called the game correctly caught more grief than the ones who called the game the way fans wanted them to.

I only do levels well below that...it’s the same thing.

The worst part about kids sports are the adults

 

[wbbfan17]

While ONOs improvements have really been ginormous from last year to this I am interested to see how foul prone she is against good bigs. She’s improved her offensive arsenal but I fear against hebard, smith & egbo, and the twin towers at Scar (particularly a much more skilled and physical Boston who is honestly WAY better than imo), and the bigs of Tennessee she will struggle mightily with foul trouble. She’s good, not great and I think will be the reason we do or don’t win the natty. Williams has looked “off” (by her standards tho) all year to me and need to produce more efficiently and confidently in big games. And personally i just don’t think danger is good enough to lead us to a natty (i think she’s hugely over rated). I’m so excited to see this team play real competition and hopefully prove me wrong!

 

[HopJim]

May just be the UConn fan in me but noticing that ONO and Walker getting hacked much of the time when they get aggressive for rebounds. ONO is also getting held 99% of the time she gets position down low. Against the teams we have played this year not an issue relative to wins and don't want to see fouls called every possession but against Baylor, etc. hope it goes both ways.