Kentucky trades it's "rich" tradition.....

[HuskyHawk]

This is a strange thread.

Uk does not have to be dirty- they are the ultimate one and done stop over on the way to the NBA. There is a big difference between Uk and Umass or UMem- the squid found the school were his "skill set" works well. That does not mean they are going to win a ton of NC. I am convinced the NC can be directly linked to T Jones staying in school. He just does not get players who are willing to do that very often- when he does they are going to be a top of the food chain team the following year.

WE ARE DOOMED!

Agree on Jones. Without Jones, Robinson goes off for 25+ last night, but really UK wouldn't have gotten to the title game. I'll give Cal credit for one thing, he got a bunch of prima donnas to buy into defense first. They have no semblence of team offense at all, worse than UConn even. Horrible. Hardly saw a single assist from them, and they ran no pick and rolls, nada. Just individuals beating their man and making plays. But they played defense with intensity.

 

[caw]

The obsession with Kentucky and the delusion most of the posters here have about our own program is kind of weird.

First, to be fair for most it's Calipari obsession that only now corresponds to Kentucky for most posters, from what I have read.

Second (not directly related to you, though I quoted your post), I think if you believe Calhoun knew something about Nochimson and Miles then you probably also should believe Calipari knew something about the Camby situation or the Rose situation or the Kanter situation (Calipari maintains the kid should have been eligible).

If you believe Calipari didn't know about any of those, you should also believe Calhoun didn't know anything about Nochimson being involved with Miles.

It's a question of whether you believe college basketball is dirty or not. It really has little to do with the specific players or coaches involved.

 

[Huskymaniac]

First, to be fair for most it's Calipari obsession that only now corresponds to Kentucky for most posters, from what I have read.

Second (not directly related to you, though I quoted your post), I think if you believe Calhoun knew something about Nochimson and Miles then you probably also should believe Calipari knew something about the Camby situation or the Rose situation or the Kanter situation (Calipari maintains the kid should have been eligible).

If you believe Calipari didn't know about any of those, you should also believe Calhoun didn't know anything about Nochimson being involved with Miles.

It's a question of whether you believe college basketball is dirty or not. It really has little to do with the specific players or coaches involved.

Good points Caw. And as was said on another thread, it really comes down to the degree to which a coach panders to the seedier side of college basketball. It seems like the squid is up to his eyeballs in agents, runners and handlers. And it isn't just his track record at Kentucky. He didn't have success, team history or whatever excuse people want to use to pull in blue chip players at UMass (Camby and Donta Bright) or Memphis (Rose and others). He has had to vacate two final fours already. Calhoun has been at UConn for how many years, is in the hall of fame, has won three national championships and put how many players in the NBA and compare the number of McD AAs he has gotten to how many the squid has gotten. The squid's hit rate at Memphis was better than Calhoun's and the Kentucky mystique had nothing to do with that!

What is more surprising than people's obsession (I will proudly raise my hand) with the squid is the obsession with some UConn fans to try and argue that Calhoun is just as dirty. McCracken is the king .

 

[CL82]

Calipari left UMass because he was offered a NBA salary by the Nets. Calipari left Memphis because UK is one of the best jobs in the country and offered him a NBA salary. I know this because money talks.

Recruits flock to him because he runs an attacking, pro-style offense, has a track record of putting players in the first round (few supposed 1 and dones flop under him even if he doesn't develop them much), he's charismatic in a this smarmy a way some people eat up (WHERE IS GRANDMA?), and he's at one of the biggest programs in the country with limitless resources. The fact is that an 18 year old kid doesn't care how many National Championships you won or that the NCAA vacated your biggest wins, they care about what you can do to get them to that big paycheck quickly.

You could not be more correct. It is obvious that Calipari just happened to ride out out town one step ahead of posse, not once but twice! He clearly could not have known anything about what caused those two final fours to be vacated. Sheer random chance. I mean how many other programs have had to vacate the final fours just after their coach left town? Must be hundreds, if not thousands! And when Kentucky vacates this title, well that won't be his fault either. After all, he'll already have left town.

 

[Mr.Phat]

to become the ultimate 1 and done factory. If Noels, Muhammad, Bennett all commit to KY next week, along with the other 5 star recruits coming in, we'll have the pleasure of watching those freshmen for 40 games until the next batch rolls in to Lexington....great for college basketball....hopefully Squid bails for the NBA and takes his bull**** with him.

I'll take UConn anyday....NCAA trophy returns to Storrs in 2013 (or 2014) with Bazz, Boat, O Calhoun, Daniels, Roscoe, Giffey, TO and a tbd......Go UConn!!!!

If it wins national championships, who cares if they play for a year or sign up for the five year plan?

 

[Gurleyman]

The 1996 issues weren't entirely congruous. Ricky Moore and Kirk King took plane tickets home - Camby received expensive bling, $40,000 in cash and hookers. To the NCAA, the violations resulted in the same thing, but it doesn't mean that the stigma on the programs should be identical.

I do think we up eight ways to Sunday with Nate Miles and have no beefs with the penalty. Of course, between Yahoo's FOI request and the subsequent NCAA prostate exam, everything about our entire program was examined in that investigation, and nothing else was found, which at least give me some sense of consolation that it wasn't just the tip of a larger iceberg (we recruited Miles in the same class we recruited Kemba, and you know Wetzel wouldn't have held anything back that he could have pinned on our golden child). Rose had his issues with things getting taken care of for him academically prior to arriving at Memphis, and then so did Bledsoe, which seems pretty coincidental, but oh well - it canned be pinned on Calipari so it's just messageboard mud.

Ironically, the team we beat in the Final Four was the one team that Calipari has had lately that was legitimately a college team and not a five-month NBA audition (since they were Kanter-less). The only one-and-done was an excellent student (Knight, which we knew from recruiting him), and some key rotation guys had been in the program a while (Jorts, Liggins, Miller).

 

[Lefty2one]

Stern is where most the blame lies in this situation. He created this monster with his idiotic one-and-done rule. What he thought would help the NBA and college game has turned college ball into a joke. What happened with the Heat looks kinda tame compared to what's happening at UK. Given the general nose-dive in talent in college hoops the last three years I think UK will be a virtual lock in the Final Four for the foreseeable future.

I don't think they'll win titles consistently though because of what happened the last two years will be more in line with a normal UK year than this season. Most 18 year olds aren't going to mesh well, have a good basketball IQ, good work ethic, unselfish, etc. Like any other coach/team/program, Calipari still needs to catch lightening in a bottle to win a title even with all the bluechips he'll bring in.

Anyway, bottom line to me is that given the absurd rules and gray areas, Calipari is simply taking advantage of the situation the best. He can relate to these new age kids that are generally pampered better than any other coach right now.

 

[Gurleyman]

If it wins national championships, who cares if they play for a year or sign up for the five year plan?

Maybe I'm not being intellectually honest, but I'd like to think I do. It was more fun seeing what Kemba did over three years in growing from a bench role player into someone who led his team from out of nowhere to a title, or seeing how Emeka/Ben developed, or watching how far Rip/Free/Jake came in three years. In theory, Drummond could have been a one-and-done this year who helped us to a title, but it would have been a Connecticut guy paying his own way to play at the state U he grew up rooting for, so even that would feel a little different.

Although I think the Henefeld year was completely worth it. And Kentucky had gone a long time by their standards without a title and their fans were starving for one, whereas I have three to savor from recent memory, so maybe there isn't a sense of desperation in my thought process. Red Sox fans in 2004 probably would have signed Bucky Dent as a free agent if it could have guaranteed a World Series title.

 

[Lefty2one]

@ Gurleyman

That's why Stern is a fool for the rule change a few year ago. Now these kids have to go to school for a year so they might as well all go to the same school, play for a "player's coach" at arguable the most tradition-rich program in the country. As a fan it's much more exciting to watch a kid stay for a few years and develop but I'll take super-talent on my roster each and every time even if they're gone after one year.

 

[Reno]

You could not be more correct. It is obvious that Calipari just happened to ride out out town one step ahead of posse, not once but twice! He clearly could not have known anything about what caused those two final fours to be vacated. Sheer random chance. I mean how many other programs have had to vacate the final fours just after their coach left town? Must be hundreds, if not thousands! And when Kentucky vacates this title, well that won't be his fault either. After all, he'll already have left town.

Neither one of the vacated Final Fours led to additional sanctions against the schools. You people act like they got the Death Penalty and then he just moved on down the road. Please pass whatever you've been smoking.

 

[Reno]

The 1996 issues weren't entirely congruous. Ricky Moore and Kirk King took plane tickets home - Camby received expensive bling, $40,000 in cash and hookers. To the NCAA, the violations resulted in the same thing, but it doesn't mean that the stigma on the programs should be identical.

In both cases, those violations didn't benefit Calhoun or Calipari. I'm not sure how Marcus Camby wearing expensive jewelry is an example of Calipari being a cheater.

 

[Reno]

@ Gurleyman

That's why Stern is a fool for the rule change a few year ago. Now these kids have to go to school for a year so they might as well all go to the same school, play for a "player's coach" at arguable the most tradition-rich program in the country. As a fan it's much more exciting to watch a kid stay for a few years and develop but I'll take super-talent on my roster each and every time even if they're gone after one year.

Stern got exactly what he wanted. A free minor league for the NBA and some additional evaluation time for NBA GMs so they would stop speculating on every athletic high school kid who can almost dribble a basketball (hello, Gerald Green).

 

[Lefty2one]

^ Oh yes, I know it's certainly beneficial for the NBA. It's not had a positive impact on the college game that a lot of people thought it was going to five years ago.

 

[Gurleyman]

In both cases, those violations didn't benefit Calhoun or Calipari. I'm not sure how Marcus Camby wearing expensive jewelry is an example of Calipari being a cheater.

Not being a cheater, per se, but being willfully ignorant and not being aware of things going on in his own program (which is what you insist was the case with Calhoun, who is a control freak). Did all the cash and gifts prevent Camby from turning pro after his sophomore year, and was Calipari willing to let that happen to keep his star player in Amherst? Certainly not impossible to think he at least turned a blind eye. I suppose we weren't necessarily as diligent as we could have been in asking Ricky and Kirk who was paying for their plane ticket home, but we did self-report once we became aware that they were tied to Lounsbury.

Industry rumor is that Calipari was recruiting for Memphis before he was officially employed there - flying around to meet with recruits during NCAA dead periods since he wasn't under contract yet. I'd bet my smaller bank accounts that he had a hand in getting Rose and Bledsoe's problems "taken care of".

 

[freescooter]

I'm confused. The south was still under the rule of Jim Crow until the '60s. Not the State of Kentucky under the leadership of Adolph Rupp. The south.

What in the world does that have to do with Kentucky's history of winning basketball games?

BL, I think you are correct that the entire south, including Kentucky was prtetty racist during the period when Rupp coached. But by most accounts he personally was a particularly virulent racist. Some of the things that he is quoted as saying, and things he allowed to go on, according to his friends and associates, are pretty much worse than others in the same period. And Kentucky was among the least integrated programs even after the rest of the SEC began recruiting African-American players. From the time he was ordered by the University president to start recruting black players until his retirement, 4 years later, kentucky had exactly 1 African-American player.

 

[businesslawyer]

BL, I think you are correct that the entire south, including Kentucky was prtetty racist during the period when Rupp coached. But by most accounts he personally was a particularly virulent racist. Some of the things that he is quoted as saying, and things he allowed to go on, according to his friends and associates, are pretty much worse than others in the same period. And Kentucky was among the least integrated programs even after the rest of the SEC began recruiting African-American players. From the time he was ordered by the University president to start recruting black players until his retirement, 4 years later, kentucky had exactly 1 African-American player.

I think it is clear from all reports that Rupp was very racist. But seriously -- what does that have to do with kentucky's success in basketball. And even if it had anything to do with Kentucky's success in basketball, I'm not a big fan of judging someone outside the context of their times because it's worthless drivel. Goodness knows, two hundred years in the future some part of our lives that we never think twice about will be looked at in horror by future generations. So what.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I think it is clear from all reports that Rupp was very racist. But seriously -- what does that have to do with kentucky's success in basketball. And even if it had anything to do with Kentucky's success in basketball, I'm not a big fan of judging someone outside the context of their times because it's worthless drivel. Goodness knows, two hundred years in the future some part of our lives that we never think twice about will be looked at in horror by future generations. So what.

Indeed, far be it for any Red Sox fan to complain about U Kentucky (yes I'm a Sox fan) when it comes to integration. But I grew up thinking Jim Rice was the man. Had a 14 on my plastic helmet. It's not fair to judge this Kentucky team or even the university as it is today, based on that history. I don't hate the university, and didn't hate Kentucky under Sutton, Pitino (maybe a little) or Tubby. But Cal just rubs me the wrong way. I'm sure others out there feel that way about Calhoun...he is one cantankerous old bastard when it comes down to it. But we find it endearing because he's our guy.

 

[businesslawyer]

I dislike Calipari. But he is a good basketball coach (if you don't believe that go back and find video of his pre-Marcus Camby UMass teams and then tell me he can't coach) and even if he wasn't Kentucky's history on racism if more than a little irrelevant to any of this.

Lose graciously folks.

 

[CL82]

Neither one of the vacated Final Fours led to additional sanctions against the schools. You people act like they got the Death Penalty and then he just moved on down the road. Please pass whatever you've been smoking.

Again, I could not agree with you more. I mean what's the big deal? A whole season's efforts washed away as if never happened - who cares? Really, they could just go out and do again the next year, right? I sort of feel badly for the seniors but if they were any good they'd have a shot a success in the NBA anyway. You got to be smoking the "mary jane" if you think that there's something wrong that.

 

[Gurleyman]

I dislike Calipari. But he is a good basketball coach (if you don't believe that go back and find video of his pre-Marcus Camby UMass teams and then tell me he can't coach) and even if he wasn't Kentucky's history on racism if more than a little irrelevant to any of this.

Lose graciously folks.

I actually remember rooting for UMass and being appalled at a technical foul that he got hit with when he was "out of the coaching box" late in a Sweet 16 game when it looked like he was just encouraging his team to box out or something. Back then, they were just another New England school I was indifferent to, sort of like now.

 

[Reno]

Again, I could not agree with you more. I mean what's the big deal? A whole season's efforts washed away as if never happened - who cares? Really, they could just go out and do again the next year, right? I sort of feel badly for the seniors but if they were any good they'd have a shot a success in the NBA anyway. You got to be smoking the "mary jane" if you think that there's something wrong that.

I'm sure those seniors really felt bad when the NCAA went and erased their memories.

 

[cohenzone]

I think it is clear from all reports that Rupp was very racist. But seriously -- what does that have to do with kentucky's success in basketball. And even if it had anything to do with Kentucky's success in basketball, I'm not a big fan of judging someone outside the context of their times because it's worthless drivel. Goodness knows, two hundred years in the future some part of our lives that we never think twice about will be looked at in horror by future generations. So what.

Gee, you are sanguine. There were actually Germans who hated the Nazis and protected the Jews. There were actually white southerners who were not racist and stood up for what's right. Excusing someone's outright discrimination because a lot of other people in the neighborhood discriminated is pretty generous. Obviously, it doesn't correct the past wrong to dwell on someone's bad behavior long after the fact. But it isn't all that inappropriate to point out that UK's proud hoop tradition started under a person who had the chance to rise above it all, but was understandably as bad as the next guy because, gosh, it's the way it was then.

If I recall correctly the university that started the demise of the racist regime in southern college ball was also a southern team, Texas Western. The coach, Don Haskins was a white man from a state, Oklahoma, that practiced segregation during his formative years. His all black team's NCAA championship victory over , um, all-white Rupp's UK team has the virtual status of Jackie Robinson in the history of college hoops. Haskins was a far bigger man than Adolph Rupp.

 

[businesslawyer]

Gee, you are sanguine. There were actually Germans who hated the Nazis and protected the Jews. There were actually white southerners who were not racist and stood up for what's right. Excusing someone's outright discrimination because a lot of other people in the neighborhood discriminated is pretty generous. Obviously, it doesn't correct the past wrong to dwell on someone's bad behavior long after the fact. But it isn't all that inappropriate to point out that UK's proud hoop tradition started under a person who had the chance to rise above it all, but was understandably as bad as the next guy because, gosh, it's the way it was then.

If I recall correctly the university that started the demise of the racist regime in southern college ball was also a southern team, Texas Western. The coach, Don Haskins was a white man from a state, Oklahoma, that practiced segregation during his formative years. His all black team's NCAA championship victory over , um, all-white Rupp's UK team has the virtual status of Jackie Robinson in the history of college hoops. Haskins was a far bigger man than Adolph Rupp.

Of course he was. Sheesh.

 

[CTFIRERETIRED]

Unfortunately, we're the ones who got caught.

Yeah it got a little old for the NCAA to go after Calipari so many times. But seriously folks, do we really rate up there with the group of notorious coaches and programs, like Tarkainan and his 2 stints (Long Beach St., UNLV), Kentucky, (During the Rupp era of the 50's, Joe B. Hall era, and eventually the Calipari era). I could go on maybe naming Kelvin Sampson, and his time at Oklahoma and Indiana, BC's point shaving scandal in the late 80's, early 90's, but what is the point. In the matter of degree, Uconn is not even close in the scandal department to any of these Class acts. As one poster said.......................we just got caught.............sort of.

 

[CL82]

I'm sure those seniors really felt bad when the NCAA went and erased their memories.

I know right. What does it matter that NCAA struck your greatest season from the record books? They'll still remember the game. Frankly, I'm surprised that anyone even keeps score. What's the point? I mean everyone remembers their own personal effort and isn't that more important?

 

[CL82]

Yeah it got a little old for the NCAA to go after Calipari so many times. But seriously folks, do we really rate up there with the group of notorious coaches and programs, like Tarkainan and his 2 stints (Long Beach St., UNLV), Kentucky, (During the Rupp era of the 50's, Joe B. Hall era, and eventually the Calipari era). I could go on maybe naming Kelvin Sampson, and his time at Oklahoma and Indiana, BC's point shaving scandal in the late 80's, early 90's, but what is the point. In the matter of degree, Uconn is not even close in the scandal department to any of these Class acts. As one poster said.......................we just got caught.............sort of.

Well wait there was excessive texting. There's no denying that. If that isn't equivalent to point shaving, I don't know what is.

 

[Alexmia]

What rich tradition? That the father of their basketball program was a racist named "Adolph"?

Be careful of what you say about the single greatest Men's Basketball coach after John Wooden. You know people who live in glass houses.