Kemba vs Kyrie debate has an official winner

[FatElvis]

I'm a fivethirtyeight.com junkie. There's an interesting video on there deciding who's the better point guard based on very detailed metrics.

Kemba Walker Or Kyrie Irving?

Kemba or Kyrie? That is the question. Whether ‘twas nobler for the Boston Celtics to take their chance with Kemba Walker after his All-Star season or make it wo…

fivethirtyeight.com

 

[Engineer90]

So, on the court, they are a tie at this point. But, off the court, Kemba wins big time. The analytics of his teammates will be much higher than they were with Kyrie. Watch...

 

[Rocktheworld]

So, on the court, they are a tie at this point. But, off the court, Kemba wins big time. The analytics of his teammates will be much higher than they were with Kyrie. Watch...

Pray tell

What are the "analytics of his teammates"?

No slight on either player; I'm just interested as to what measures I should be paying attention over this season.

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

So, on the court, they are a tie at this point. But, off the court, Kemba wins big time. The analytics of his teammates will be much higher than they were with Kyrie. Watch...

Kyrie is so much more gifted of a basketball player than Kemba it’s not even funny.
I don’t understand how this is even a debate.

 

[Austin316]

I stopped liking Kyrie the second he was compared to Kemba

“Hey! Hey! Hey!... keep it clean! That’s my Kemba your talkin about. Man, F Kyrie.”

 

[Deepster]

Kyrie is so much more gifted of a basketball player than Kemba it’s not even funny.
I don’t understand how this is even a debate.

I don't really disagree with this....but does he have the heart or motor to take a team deep into the playoffs?

 

[Engineer90]

Pray tell

What are the "analytics of his teammates"?

No slight on either player; I'm just interested as to what measures I should be paying attention over this season.

The same ones that were used here to compare Kemba and Kyrie. Look at those numbers for the players that played with both of them once Kemba has played with them for 2 or 3 years. I bet they end up higher with Kemba compared with when they played with Kyrie. We will see.

 

[Rocktheworld]

The same ones that were used here to compare Kemba and Kyrie. Look at those numbers for the players that played with both of them once Kemba has played with them for 2 or 3 years. I bet they end up higher with Kemba compared with when they played with Kyrie. We will see.

That’s what you meant gotcha

 

[pj]

Give Kemba some time to build chemistry with his new guys. Kyrie scored 50 but Shabazz Napier who shot 1-7 was +17 and took the win. I'll go with Shabazz and the win over Kyrie and the points.

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

I don't really disagree with this....but does he have the heart or motor to take a team deep into the playoffs?

Um... and how many playoff games has Kemba won for his teams in the NBA?

Heart and motor gets you absolute jack **** in the NBA, unfortunately.

Winning in the NBA playoffs is about talent, not heart and motor.

I would rather have Kemba on my team if I’m a coach, but Kyrie is the super basketball player and it’s not even close.

 

[superjohn]

Give Kemba some time to build chemistry with his new guys. Kyrie scored 50 but Shabazz Napier who shot 1-7 was +17 and took the win. I'll go with Shabazz and the win over Kyrie and the points.

Yep, Shabazz is clearly better than Kyrie.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Kyrie is so much more gifted of a basketball player than Kemba it’s not even funny.
I don’t understand how this is even a debate.

Sure and there are dozens and dozens of guys who are more gifted quarterbacks than Tom Brady. But they aren't as good. Brady is probably the slowest and least mobile QB in the league, may have the weakest arm, isn't particularly accurate on deep throws. But nobody reads defenses and makes decisions better or does as much to motivate and lead his teammates.

Basketball doesn't have nearly the mental demands that playing QB in the NFL has, but it has some and those fall most heavily on the point guard position. Kyrie would win in a one on one game. But I'm not sure he's a better player in terms of what he brings to the team. Leadership, being a coach on the floor, getting all the guys to buy in and execute the system on offense and defense. Kemba is much better than Kyrie at all of those things. Kyrie actively worked against what Brad Stevens was trying to do last year.

 

[pj]

Yep, Shabazz is clearly better than Kyrie.

Not what I said, but don't let me stop you from beating up strawmen.

 

[Deepster]

Um... and how many playoff games has Kemba won for his teams in the NBA?

Heart and motor gets you absolute jack **** in the NBA, unfortunately.

Winning in the NBA playoffs is about talent, not heart and motor.

I would rather have Kemba on my team if I’m a coach, but Kyrie is the super basketball player and it’s not even close.

Ridiculous comeback on the postseason wins. How many playoff games has Kyrie won without Lebron on his team?

And we absolutely disagree on heart and motor being a factor. Allen Iverson called. He said you should watch some of his playoff highlights.

 

[superjohn]

Not what I said, but don't let me stop you from beating up strawmen.

I know it wasn't but the inference is you would take the better player who will help you win more games. You said you will go with Shabazz over Kyrie.

 

[pj]

I know it wasn't but the inference is you would take the better player who will help you win more games. You said you will go with Shabazz over Kyrie.

No, the correct inference is that basketball is a team game, to win you want to build the best team, and in sports with salary caps especially it's not always the best strategy to take the best individual player when he's not a good teammate. The Patriots in football are a great example of winning with a lot of Shabazz-like journeymen who are paid cheaply complementing a few stars who are themselves great teammates.

I think the Celts will be better than the Nets, and will not regret having replaced Kyrie with Kemba, even if Kyrie is the better guy at one-on-one.

 

[superjohn]

No, the correct inference is that basketball is a team game, to win you want to build the best team, and in sports with salary caps especially it's not always the best strategy to take the best individual player when he's not a good teammate. The Patriots in football are a great example of winning with a lot of Shabazz-like journeymen who are paid cheaply complementing a few stars who are themselves great teammates.

I think the Celts will be better than the Nets, and will not regret having replaced Kyrie with Kemba, even if Kyrie is the better guy at one-on-one.

So you would take Shabazz over Kyrie?

 

[intlzncster]

Sure and there are dozens and dozens of guys who are more gifted quarterbacks than Tom Brady. But they aren't as good. Brady is probably the slowest and least mobile QB in the league, may have the weakest arm, isn't particularly accurate on deep throws. But nobody reads defenses and makes decisions better or does as much to motivate and lead his teammates.

Not to get into a Pats debate, but a lot of that is objectively inaccurate. The athletic part is obviously the separator here.

With Regards to Kemba and Kyrie, the athletic part is basically a push, although Kyrie's first step is insane.

Kyrie is taller. He has a better handle, is a better shooter, better finisher at the rim, and is a better passer. Kemba does have all the intangibles.

Who makes their teammates better? Idk because I didn't look at the stats. But clearly, Kemba is a better teammate. We'll see if that translates to wins.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Not to get into a Pats debate, but a lot of that is objectively inaccurate. The athletic part is obviously the separator here.

With Regards to Kemba and Kyrie, the athletic part is basically a push, although Kyrie's first step is insane.

Kyrie is taller. He has a better handle, is a better shooter, better finisher at the rim, and is a better passer. Kemba does have all the intangibles.

Who makes their teammates better? Idk because I didn't look at the stats. But clearly, Kemba is a better teammate. We'll see if that translates to wins.

I'm a Patriots fan so wasn't disparaging Brady. He's pretty clearly the slowest and least mobile, although Peyton was a statue as well in his day. His deep ball arm strength has actually improved. A testament to how hard he works on his body. His lack of injuries is no accident either.

I don't think Kyrie is a better passer than Kemba, but agree with the rest. The point is, what makes a great player? It's often something beyond just the physical gifts or even skills. I think Kemba is a better PG in Brad's system than Kyrie. Kyrie requires that the team adapt to him. If you are LeBron level good, then fine. That's worth it. Kyrie hasn't shown that he's that guy.

 

[pj]

So you would take Shabazz over Kyrie?

I didn't say that either. I do think if a great GM were building a fantasy basketball team with a salary cap, then Shabazz might end up on his roster and Kyrie not. Obviously Kyrie would be one of the first decisions and Shabazz one of the last.

 

[superjohn]

Doncic is better than both of them and he's 20.

 

[Huskyforlife]

I didn't say that either. I do think if a great GM were building a fantasy basketball team with a salary cap, then Shabazz might end up on his roster and Kyrie not. Obviously Kyrie would be one of the first decisions and Shabazz one of the last.

The wolves would've won by 30 if they swapped kyrie for Shabazz

 

[Huskyforlife]

Doncic is better than both of them and he's 20.

He's better than Kyrie was at that age, but right now? Nah.

 

[superjohn]

He's better than Kyrie was at that age, but right now? Nah.

He's probably better than any player ever at 19-20 and he's better than Kyrie right now, IMO. I think Doncic will be a top 10 player this year.

 

[pj]

The wolves would've won by 30 if they swapped kyrie for Shabazz

So what? The Timberwolves can't do that and meet the salary cap. If the Timberwolves swapped Shabazz for Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, John Stockton, Wes Unseld, Stephan Curry, and Magic Johnson, all in their prime, they'd have won by 60. But they can't do that either, the laws of physics as well as the salary cap getting in the way.