Katz, best analysis I've seen

[Danzz]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:8749597
Younger Boneyarders should especially watch this.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

He's off by one point (a major point at that), football did not destroy the BE. The BE began as only a men's hoops conference. That was the mission he referred to (erroneously) later in the piece was being a men's hoops conference. There was in fact some minor resistance to become an actual (multi-sport) conference early on.

Unfortunately (as hoops is not a niche sport) a men's hoops conference could not operate like Hockey East, therefore the conference was doomed to fail from the start unless Syracuse, BC and later addition Pitt were willing to sacrifice their football programs (they were not, even though each has done quite a good imitation of doing so).

If a school started and only offered a major in Computer Science, even if it had as good of a Comp Sci program as any other school in the country, they cannot pass themselves off as a true university. The BE wanted only to be a Men's hoops program. A few schools joined in track & field, tennis and soccer only after some kicking and screaming. The bulk of the membership never could have realistically joined for football and as football is a ridiculously high profile, revenue sport, the BE never could have become a true conference, regardless of what anyone wants to claim.

 

[metsfan2323]

Asinine video. Katz states we lost our identity trying to compete in football, hey Andy, we lost our identity via conference raids, The Big East was the best basketball conference in the country over the last 5 years, how is that losing our basketball identity? If anything the ACC lost their basketball identity trying to compete in football.

 

[Fishy]

I think it was wildly self-serving.

What killed the Big East was not football, but the fact that the ACC has been so bad at playing it.

And bankrolled by ESPN, they solidified their football conference by adding a near-super majority of the Big East Conference football.

 

[Vuce]

Katz should save that commentary. He will be able to use a lot of the same words but just change the pictures to show ACC teams.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

There's a line in the movie Van Helsing where a very hot Kate Beckinsale says to a nearly as hot female vampire "if you're going to kill someone, kill them.". The ACC would have been better served (as would most of the membership of the BE) if the ACC took this advice and just killed the BE (by taking all of the 2004 football membership, which is basically what they may end up with anyway) instead of taking a shot here (Miami, VT, BC), a shot there (Pitt, Cuse), another shot (ND) and then even one more (Louisville), claiming each time that they finally have killed the beast.

 

[Hoophound]

They haven't killed the beast. The NBE will prosper in relative terms. It always does. Another thorn in the side of everyone else. Time will tell, but I bet Memphis is good at football in 4 years.

 

[UConnDan97]

I love the part where he drastically overemphasizes the loss of Notre Dame (about 2/3's of the way through the video), as if it was the move that turned the tides. No, a; losing West Virginia after SyraPitt announced was the turning of the tides. It didn't help that TCU announced their departure in between that moment either. By the time Notre Dame announced their departure, we were already in the ICU. Fantastic analysis, Andy....

 

[Jericho]

Asinine video. Katz states we lost our identity trying to compete in football, hey Andy, we lost our identity via conference raids, The Big East was the best basketball conference in the country over the last 5 years, how is that losing our basketball identity? If anything the ACC lost their basketball identity trying to compete in football.

I disagree. The video is meant to be a Cliff's notes version of events. So it's brief and glosses over the details. But football did kill the conference. Not that football was a bad move per se. It brought many positives. The simple fact remains that the football schools needed a home. The Big East slapped together a home, which actually initially worked. But Miami leaving changed all that. And to be fair, Miami leaving was not really about the Big East, ESPN, or any conspiracies. The simple fact is Miami was a geographic outlier in the Big East and always wanted to be in the ACC. Once the ACC was willing to say yes, it was a done deal. Then schools couldn't fall over themselves fast enough to get out. At first it was supposed to be Syracuse and BC. But Virginia Tech pulled a political card and out flanked Syracuse. It took some time, but eventually Pitt, Syracuse, West Virginia, Rutger, and Louisville would follow the first three out the door.

I don't see how the Big East could have survived in its original form. The football schools needed somewhere to play. But part of the point is that the Catholics could have not added the Central Floridas, Houstons, SMUs, etc... and just dropped football. By throwing those last ditch efforts to get any football, it killed what the basketball schools wanted. The original Big East of Syracuse and BC with Georgetown and Villanova was likely never to survive. But a different course of events could have prevented Georgetown from leaving its own conference (and possibly the name as well)

 

[UConnDan97]

I disagree. The video is meant to be a Cliff's notes version of events. So it's brief and glosses over the details. But football did kill the conference. Not that football was a bad move per se. It brought many positives. The simple fact remains that the football schools needed a home. The Big East slapped together a home, which actually initially worked. But Miami leaving changed all that. And to be fair, Miami leaving was not really about the Big East, ESPN, or any conspiracies. The simple fact is Miami was a geographic outlier in the Big East and always wanted to be in the ACC. Once the ACC was willing to say yes, it was a done deal. Then schools couldn't fall over themselves fast enough to get out. At first it was supposed to be Syracuse and BC. But Virginia Tech pulled a political card and out flanked Syracuse. It took some time, but eventually Pitt, Syracuse, West Virginia, Rutger, and Louisville would follow the first three out the door.

I don't see how the Big East could have survived in its original form. The football schools needed somewhere to play. But part of the point is that the Catholics could have not added the Central Floridas, Houstons, SMUs, etc... and just dropped football. By throwing those last ditch efforts to get any football, it killed what the basketball schools wanted. The original Big East of Syracuse and BC with Georgetown and Villanova was likely never to survive. But a different course of events could have prevented Georgetown from leaving its own conference (and possibly the name as well)

I'm not sure what you're trying to say at all. Your first paragraph suggests that football killed the Big East (which I disagree 100% with). Then in the second paragraph, you state the obvious, which is that the Big East could not have survived in its original format (which I AGREE 100% with).

There is no drawback to Georgetown leaving the conference, since it will be leaving with the entire compliment of non-football Big East originals that were with it. If anything, the years of being with the football schools have helped solidify them as a "have" instead of a "have not", to the point whereby they will likely be able to poach the Xavier's and Butler's of the world away from a decent quality A-10 conference. Bringing up schools like Syracuse and Pitt is kind of silly, since it's easy to make the argument that they are two schools whose football prowess actually LED to their basketball success, and not the other way around. No, unfortunately, UConn is the only example in the Big East where basketball prowess led to good football, and we are the last man standing...

 

[jbdphi]

He's off by one point (a major point at that), football did not destroy the BE. The BE began as only a men's hoops conference. That was the mission he referred to (erroneously) later in the piece was being a men's hoops conference. There was in fact some minor resistance to become an actual (multi-sport) conference early on.

Unfortunately (as hoops is not a niche sport) a men's hoops conference could not operate like Hockey East, therefore the conference was doomed to fail from the start unless Syracuse, BC and later addition Pitt were willing to sacrifice their football programs (they were not, even though each has done quite a good imitation of doing so).

If a school started and only offered a major in Computer Science, even if it had as good of a Comp Sci program as any other school in the country, they cannot pass themselves off as a true university. The BE wanted only to be a Men's hoops program. A few schools joined in track & field, tennis and soccer only after some kicking and screaming. The bulk of the membership never could have realistically joined for football and as football is a ridiculously high profile, revenue sport, the BE never could have become a true conference, regardless of what anyone wants to claim.

Existentially speaking, the Big East as it was known, was eventually killed due to football but it has nothing to do with the quality of the football play in the conference itself. It was the rise of college football in general and the elevation of importance of that sport which basically meant that the basketball prowess of the BE was no longer that important in the grand scheme of conference realignment.

I know that isn't the way you are interpreting what Katz says (and I may be wrong) but if college football didn't exist, I don't think this whole realignment mess would have happened.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Existentially speaking, the Big East as it was known, was eventually killed due to football but it has nothing to do with the quality of the football play in the conference itself. It was the rise of college football in general and the elevation of importance of that sport which basically meant that the basketball prowess of the BE was no longer that important in the grand scheme of conference realignment.

I know that isn't the way you are interpreting what Katz says (and I may be wrong) but if college football didn't exist, I don't think this whole realignment mess would have happened.

If college football didn't exist there really wouldn't be much more than intramural and club sports for collegiate athletics.

 

[Pudge]

They haven't killed the beast. The NBE will prosper in relative terms. It always does. Another thorn in the side of everyone else. Time will tell, but I bet Memphis is good at football in 4 years.

Wowwow ... where did that optimism come from.

 

[ZooCougar]

The Big Priest Conference added very little to this conference over the past decade. They really were nothing burger.

I just saw a replay on ESPN, they asked Bill Raftery about the greatest memories of the conference, he talked about the UConn SU six OT game.

These little boutique programs have been invisible. And now they will be even more invisible except for a few weeks in the spring. And this is as it should be.

 

[Jericho]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say at all. Your first paragraph suggests that football killed the Big East (which I disagree 100% with). Then in the second paragraph, you state the obvious, which is that the Big East could not have survived in its original format (which I AGREE 100% with).

There is no drawback to Georgetown leaving the conference, since it will be leaving with the entire compliment of non-football Big East originals that were with it. If anything, the years of being with the football schools have helped solidify them as a "have" instead of a "have not", to the point whereby they will likely be able to poach the Xavier's and Butler's of the world away from a decent quality A-10 conference. Bringing up schools like Syracuse and Pitt is kind of silly, since it's easy to make the argument that they are two schools whose football prowess actually LED to their basketball success, and not the other way around. No, unfortunately, UConn is the only example in the Big East where basketball prowess led to good football, and we are the last man standing...

The two points can easily co-exist. The Big East was a basketball powerhouse, and it existed for roughly a decade before the first Big East football game was ever played. That Big East was wildly successful and allowed a few schools to win national titles (Georgetown, Villanova). By trying to appease the football schools and trying to chase that sport, the league first asked Miami and later Virginia Tech, Rutgers, and West Virginia to join. Only West Virgina ever added anything consistently to the basketball side. The schools watered down their basketball product in pursuit of....something. I suppose it was money and exposure. And sure, it at least temporarily helped keep football schools like Syracuse around. But it was not a long term solution.

When schools started leaving, Louisville and Cincinnati came in. They actually added something to basketball, but the cracks were already there. By making any additions, it was simply delaying the inevitable. And now the day of reckoning has come, when they're adding schools like Tulane. The point Katz seems to be making, which I agree with, is that the Big east would have been better served never chasing the football side. Never going after Miami, et al.... Maybe the difference of opinion comes from the fact you feel by associating with the football schools, the Big East legitimized themselves. I'd say they were always legit (the national titles help show that) and they could have easily thrived by ignoring football.

In the end, it does not matter much. This split re-creates what was the original Big East. The only question is who gets the name and who gets the Madison Square Garden tournament.

 

[businesslawyer]

Huh? The split divides the original seven Big East members into three different conferences. How in the world can one use the word "recreate" to mean split into three?

Without football, Syracuse and BC, and possibly UConn, would have left the Big East more than a decade ago. How in the world would that be "saving" it.

This fight is solely about nomenclature == not substance. The Catholic seven left because it was now in their interest to do so, and it never has been before. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[CL82]

Huh? The split divides the original seven Big East members into three different conferences. How in the world can one use the word "recreate" to mean split into three?

Without football, Syracuse and BC, and possibly UConn, would have left the Big East more than a decade ago. How in the world would that be "saving" it.

This fight is solely about nomenclature == not substance. The Catholic seven left because it was now in their interest to do so, and it never has been before. Nothing more, nothing less.

Spot on.

 

[Jericho]

Huh? The split divides the original seven Big East members into three different conferences. How in the world can one use the word "recreate" to mean split into three?

Without football, Syracuse and BC, and possibly UConn, would have left the Big East more than a decade ago. How in the world would that be "saving" it.

This fight is solely about nomenclature == not substance. The Catholic seven left because it was now in their interest to do so, and it never has been before. Nothing more, nothing less.

I meant the non-football members of the Big East. I thought that was obvious from the post. I've stated twice in this thread that I don't think it was realistic to ever hold the original Big East together. Not unless all the schools played top level football or all of them dropped the sport. Instead they've had divided interests.

I'd agree that without football, schools like Syracuse would have left eventually (exactly when and how is up for debate as they'd also need to be invited from a suitable conference.) But that's the point. The Catholics should have let them do so. Trying desperately to keep the football schools only prolonged the inevitable.

Now the Catholics are stuck fighting a legal battle of the Big East name and NCAA credits. They could have avoided this by not chasing the football side's interests.

 

[businesslawyer]

This was always a two way street. There were no Catholics on the east coast to add (other than 'Nova after one year) without diluting hoops at any time. They would have lost money by saying we don't need BC or Syracuse, and forget Pitt or WVU, but let's add St. Joes and Fordham.

Despite all the words, neither side did anything wrong here. The world changes around them in that basketball money became totally irrelevant compared to football money, even on the east coast. The only thing anyone did wrong was not be able to accurately forsee the future thirty and twenty years ahead of time.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

The football members (Cuse, BC & Pitt) were pressuring the remainder of the conference for a couple of years to add football prior to the conference actually doing so. What changed there was that Penn St announced they were joining the B10, at which point the three (stated above) who were competing at a higher level in football demanded "add football or we walk". Landing Miami and agreeing to allow the football members to use the BE name for football (the BE football conference initially was not part of the BE) solved that problem. It would be difficult to claim that any member did not benefit from this arrangement (we likely benefited the most) but the hybrid monstrosity that was created had no way of surviving. That it lasted as long as it did was remarkable.

Adding football did not kill the conference. It allowed one of the marquee members (Cuse) to remain at a time when most of the marquee members decided to mail it in (save a decent season or two from the three catholic members who appeared in the 1985 final four) and the only programs of substance from when football was added until the first raid were us and Syracuse. If the conference became UConn and five catholic members circa 1990, the substance of that conference would have been in question (especially as the A-10 was claiming to be our equal in the early to mid 1990's and at least at the top third of each conference had an argument). I believe that we would have been reasonably close to where we ended up as a men's hoops program but I do not see any way football could have been upgraded.

What killed the conference was having a membership that had both schools who wanted to compete at the highest level in football and schools that didn't even field a team in the same conference.

 

[SubbaBub]

It is a sactimonious agenda driven, euology for the BE perpetrated by the single organization most responsible for it's demise, as a sappy one at that.

Mr. Katz, I suggest you re-read the transcript of your homage to the greatness of small urban non-football playing basketball schools. It your roll call of great BE basketball programs, you sure seemed to rely on the larger football playing schools as proof of the greatness that was BE basketball.