Karaban never did panic

[inWV]

Charles Barkley at the half: " They just don't have the fire power."

What did Round Mound say after the game?

 

[microfich]

I feel like Silas tip is not getting enough credit. The timing was perfect.

A lot of credit to go around.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Any 100 guys would have done the same.

View attachment 118953

NEVER FORGET

I fully support using this interaction as much as humanly possible.

 

[Inyatkin]

I fully support using this interaction as much as humanly possible.

It's part of Boneyard lore now. 100 guys could have done it

 

[bluestreak]

I feel like Silas tip is not getting enough credit. The timing was perfect.

That whole s

 

[bluestreak]

I feel like Silas tip is not getting enough credit. The timing was perfect.

I meant to say, That whole sequence went so perfectly. Nobody panicked. They all played as if it had been practiced.
I think about the pieces that came together to even make the shot attempt possible. Everything was pulled off perfectly by all players. Even The blue satans.

 

[aceboon]

What did Round Mound say after the game?

nobody knows because CBS made the decision to go right to 60 minutes after the game, I don't understand how you can't kick it to the panel for 5-10 minutes after what we just saw and after how many hours of coverage through 2 weeks

 

[Bonesbrigade]

Yes Braylon hit the SHOT, Tate all over again. But AK never panicked in the final seconds. His composure and leadership was epic !!!!

Truly the whole team remained composed throughout the entire comeback. This is in my opinion one of the most important aspects of that win. Composed!

 

[HooperScooper]

nobody knows because CBS made the decision to go right to 60 minutes after the game, I don't understand how you can't kick it to the panel for 5-10 minutes after what we just saw and after how many hours of coverage through 2 weeks

Yeah I was surprised also. I was flipping around stations at that point figuring someone would be talking about the game until I finally found it on CBS Sports Network. They had Adam Zucker, Jon Rothstein, Wally Szcerbiak, and Chris Walker in the studio. Found out Zucker is a Duke hater. That was good to know.

 

[Ewekon]

Couldn’t agree more with this. Karaban won that game in the end when others were fading. Missing free throws. Making that pass was something no one else on the team would have done.

Really, it was 2 ones and wons there. Probably the 1 greatest assist of AK's epic UConn career, thus far. Clearly the greatest shot of Braylon's young UConn career, thus far (please please please). Those 2 greatest ones won the game.

Up there with "The Shot" and the "Kemba step back"; but this one gets us to the Final Four so gets my vote. Happily, was at both the Kemba game and this one.

WOW!

 

[jfreeds]

Any 100 guys would have done the same.

View attachment 118953

NEVER FORGET

He still isn't wrong.

 

[uconn_jack]

He still isn't wrong.

The 5th man comment, maybe. But that he could have been replaced by a hundres different people, absolutely not.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

What was the game where Karaban got called for a travel at the top of the arc? I've lost track. Anyway, he had an equally egregious one when he got the ball to Demery right before he got fouled with ten seconds left. I had a minor stroke waiting for a whistle.

 

[jfreeds]

The 5th man comment, maybe. But that he could have been replaced by a hundres different people, absolutely not.

I decided to look up his BPR for prior years...#186, #42 and #73 last year. Very replaceable freshman year. His sophomore year is higher than I expected and could not be replaced by hundreds of players and last year was meh. Personally, I thought his season last year was disappointing. #55 this year which seems right. Good not great.

So, like most debates, the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

Also can't ignore that all the top players leave after a year or two. How good should you consider a year 4 player when it means they are the best who couldn't make it to the next level.

You'll get the same argument with a player like Braden Smith. Became the all time assist leader but no one really cares because everyone knows his career numbers and games played are a product of him not being good enough to get drafted. If every player stayed in college the past 4 years would Karaban even be considered a top 200 player? Maybe.

 

[uconn_jack]

I decided to look up his BPR for prior years...#186, #42 and #73 last year. Very replaceable freshman year. His sophomore year is higher than I expected and could not be replaced by hundreds of players and last year was meh. Personally, I thought his season last year was disappointing. #55 this year which seems right. Good not great.

So, like most debates, the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

Also can't ignore that all the top players leave after a year or two. How good should you consider a year 4 player when it means they are the best who couldn't make it to the next level.

You'll get the same argument with a player like Braden Smith. Became the all time assist leader but no one really cares because everyone knows his career numbers and games played are a product of him not being good enough to get drafted. If every player stayed in college the past 4 years would Karaban even be considered a top 200 player? Maybe.

You are just talking about metrics and statistics which rarely tells the whole story, especially when it comes to the kind of intangibles Karaban has brought his 4 years here, even as a freshman.

 

[jfreeds]

You are just talking about metrics and statistics which rarely tells the whole story, especially when it comes to the kind of intangibles Karaban has brought his 4 years here, even as a freshman.

This is the common misconception of metrics and statistics. They actually do tell the whole story so much so that it is hard to comprehend. The eye test does not tell the whole story. Have you watched every Illinois, VCU, and all other 363 teams games over the last 4 years? No, of course not. So how could you rationally compare players when you've watched 120 games of one player and 2 games + some highlights of another. We watch less than 1% of the games played each year. That's why we should rely on metrics.

May I remind you about his two missed FT against Nova last year.
Poor inbound passes that cost a game this year
Countless others (and every player will accrue some dumb dumb moments, I'm not hating him)

You can't just remember the few good stoic plays and disregard the bad ones but you're naturally going to do so because you are human and forgetting about them.

 

[superjohn]

What was the game where Karaban got called for a travel at the top of the arc? I've lost track. Anyway, he had an equally egregious one when he got the ball to Demery right before he got fouled with ten seconds left. I had a minor stroke waiting for a whistle.

I noticed it, can't call stuff like that with the game on the line. It happens all game long.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

This is the common misconception of metrics and statistics. They actually do tell the whole story so much so that it is hard to comprehend. The eye test does not tell the whole story. Have you watched every Illinois, VCU, and all other 363 teams games over the last 4 years? No, of course not. So how could you rationally compare players when you've watched 120 games of one player and 2 games + some highlights of another. We watch less than 1% of the games played each year. That's why we should rely on metrics.

May I remind you about his two missed FT against Nova last year.
Poor inbound passes that cost a game this year
Countless others (and every player will accrue some dumb dumb moments, I'm not hating him)

You can't just remember the few good stoic plays and disregard the bad ones but you're naturally going to do so because you are human and forgetting about them.

This is a brutal look.

 

[temery]

I think Hurley might have head butted him at the end there. The man is out of control.

 

[JakeTheDog]

This is the common misconception of metrics and statistics. They actually do tell the whole story so much so that it is hard to comprehend. The eye test does not tell the whole story. Have you watched every Illinois, VCU, and all other 363 teams games over the last 4 years? No, of course not. So how could you rationally compare players when you've watched 120 games of one player and 2 games + some highlights of another. We watch less than 1% of the games played each year. That's why we should rely on metrics.

May I remind you about his two missed FT against Nova last year.
Poor inbound passes that cost a game this year
Countless others (and every player will accrue some dumb dumb moments, I'm not hating him)

You can't just remember the few good stoic plays and disregard the bad ones but you're naturally going to do so because you are human and forgetting about them.

This dude is making Ruff look like Scrappy.

 

[jfreeds]

This dude is making Ruff look like Scrappy.

Tell me what was not correct about what I said.

 

[storrsroars]

This is a brutal look.

This guy does not make lemonade out of lemons. He burns down the entire lemon orchard and plants Yubari King melons... even though they won't grow on his patch of land.

(yeah, I'm gonna make y'all Google it)

 

[caw]

This is the common misconception of metrics and statistics. They actually do tell the whole story so much so that it is hard to comprehend. The eye test does not tell the whole story. Have you watched every Illinois, VCU, and all other 363 teams games over the last 4 years? No, of course not. So how could you rationally compare players when you've watched 120 games of one player and 2 games + some highlights of another. We watch less than 1% of the games played each year. That's why we should rely on metrics.

May I remind you about his two missed FT against Nova last year.
Poor inbound passes that cost a game this year
Countless others (and every player will accrue some dumb dumb moments, I'm not hating him)

You can't just remember the few good stoic plays and disregard the bad ones but you're naturally going to do so because you are human and forgetting about them.

Metrics and Statistics do not tell the whole story at all, at least not the ones most people here use. There are so many things (screens, movement, gravity, etc.) that are not encapsulated in statistics that most people see, and honestly most of it is poorly tracked even in the metrics that are available.

Let's look at that final play. Demary steals it (in the box) but nowhere does it mention Mullins recovering the ball, or helping force the steal by shutting down another passing lane. Mullins doesn't get any credit on that play until his three point shot goes in (in the boxscore, in a way that is quantifiable to him).

Similar to hockey assists in basketball, or a double hockey assist (point being the doubling was caused by one play but the ball swung enough so he does not come close to sniffing anything in the boxscore, or any statistic. Most metrics we get don't cover that. Boozer had at least a handful of those in the game though because he was able to effectively have the defense collapse on him, kick the ball out and have someone swing it to an open man. No metric really captures that it's all due to Boozer having enough gravity to attract two defenders.

Or, to use Boozer again, when he blocks Tarris twice in the post, who gets the credit there defensively on most metrics? Boozer, but who was the defender that was banging in the post and delaying the shot just enough for Boozer to come over from the weak side for the blind block? Most metics aren't giving the initial defender any credit there at all.

Bringing it back to Karaban, do you think you have an accurate measurement for all the pressure he puts on a defense by being a movement shooter and not just a stand still recipient of a swing pass? Is there a metric that gauges all the wear and tear that causes on a defenders legs throughout the game? A player like Boozer shoots 40% from three, but we all know from watching the game that his three point shot is vastly different from Karabans in terms of the gravity and effort a defender has to put into defending it.

 

[uh-no]

Metrics and Statistics do not tell the whole story at all, at least not the ones most people here use. There are so many things (screens, movement, gravity, etc.) that are not encapsulated in statistics that most people see, and honestly most of it is poorly tracked even in the metrics that are available.

Let's look at that final play. Demary steals it (in the box) but nowhere does it mention Mullins recovering the ball, or helping force the steal by shutting down another passing lane. Mullins doesn't get any credit on that play until his three point shot goes in (in the boxscore, in a way that is quantifiable to him).

Similar to hockey assists in basketball, or a double hockey assist (point being the doubling was caused by one play but the ball swung enough so he does not come close to sniffing anything in the boxscore, or any statistic. Most metrics we get don't cover that. Boozer had at least a handful of those in the game though because he was able to effectively have the defense collapse on him, kick the ball out and have someone swing it to an open man. No metric really captures that it's all due to Boozer having enough gravity to attract two defenders.

Or, to use Boozer again, when he blocks Tarris twice in the post, who gets the credit there defensively on most metrics? Boozer, but who was the defender that was banging in the post and delaying the shot just enough for Boozer to come over from the weak side for the blind block? Most metics aren't giving the initial defender any credit there at all.

Bringing it back to Karaban, do you think you have an accurate measurement for all the pressure he puts on a defense by being a movement shooter and not just a stand still recipient of a swing pass? Is there a metric that gauges all the wear and tear that causes on a defenders legs throughout the game? A player like Boozer shoots 40% from three, but we all know from watching the game that his three point shot is vastly different from Karabans in terms of the gravity and effort a defender has to put into defending it.

great post...and one of the reasons i absolutely hate defensive statistics. You can be the best defender in the world and never have a steal or a block....because you absolutely shut down your man to the degree that the only thing he can do is pass it away.

The hockey assist is a great comparison.

 

[NJHusky]

nobody knows because CBS made the decision to go right to 60 minutes after the game, I don't understand how you can't kick it to the panel for 5-10 minutes after what we just saw and after how many hours of coverage through 2 weeks

Especially with 19M watching.

 

[storrsroars]

This is the common misconception of metrics and statistics. They actually do tell the whole story so much so that it is hard to comprehend. The eye test does not tell the whole story. Have you watched every Illinois, VCU, and all other 363 teams games over the last 4 years? No, of course not. So how could you rationally compare players when you've watched 120 games of one player and 2 games + some highlights of another. We watch less than 1% of the games played each year. That's why we should rely on metrics.

May I remind you about his two missed FT against Nova last year.
Poor inbound passes that cost a game this year
Countless others (and every player will accrue some dumb dumb moments, I'm not hating him)

You can't just remember the few good stoic plays and disregard the bad ones but you're naturally going to do so because you are human and forgetting about them.

I haven't watched all those minutes from all those games. But there are NBA folks who've watched a helluva lot more of it than you have. And they put AK in the mid-second round.

There are about 869 scholarship players among the P4 + BE. There are 30 NBA teams. Only 60 kids get drafted, and AK was slotted in around #45 on consensus boards. That puts him in the top 5% of all college players. And if you start including players from high mid-majors like Gonzaga, St. Louis, St. Mary's, etc. His rarefied air becomes even more rarefied.

My guess is that these NBA teams value more than simply volume shooting or physical gifts. If Hurley wants to play him 39 minutes because he's the smartest guy out there and unlikely to make a dumb decisions, I'd think that's a good enough reference for the NBA. He was on draft boards ahead of guys with more "stat sheet" prowess. But there's something to the idea of a guy who leads and can make everyone around him better. Rudy Gay didn't do that on a team with immense talent.

I imagine you're the type of person who would be in a discussion with a SF Giants fan about how flawed Hunter Pence's game was during those 2012 & 2014 WS championships.

 

[RashadRay11]

This is the common misconception of metrics and statistics. They actually do tell the whole story so much so that it is hard to comprehend. The eye test does not tell the whole story. Have you watched every Illinois, VCU, and all other 363 teams games over the last 4 years? No, of course not. So how could you rationally compare players when you've watched 120 games of one player and 2 games + some highlights of another. We watch less than 1% of the games played each year. That's why we should rely on metrics.

May I remind you about his two missed FT against Nova last year.
Poor inbound passes that cost a game this year
Countless others (and every player will accrue some dumb dumb moments, I'm not hating him)

You can't just remember the few good stoic plays and disregard the bad ones but you're naturally going to do so because you are human and forgetting about them.

It warms my heart that everyone hates your post

 

[jfreeds]

Metrics and Statistics do not tell the whole story at all, at least not the ones most people here use. There are so many things (screens, movement, gravity, etc.) that are not encapsulated in statistics that most people see, and honestly most of it is poorly tracked even in the metrics that are available.

Let's look at that final play. Demary steals it (in the box) but nowhere does it mention Mullins recovering the ball, or helping force the steal by shutting down another passing lane. Mullins doesn't get any credit on that play until his three point shot goes in (in the boxscore, in a way that is quantifiable to him).

Similar to hockey assists in basketball, or a double hockey assist (point being the doubling was caused by one play but the ball swung enough so he does not come close to sniffing anything in the boxscore, or any statistic. Most metrics we get don't cover that. Boozer had at least a handful of those in the game though because he was able to effectively have the defense collapse on him, kick the ball out and have someone swing it to an open man. No metric really captures that it's all due to Boozer having enough gravity to attract two defenders.

Or, to use Boozer again, when he blocks Tarris twice in the post, who gets the credit there defensively on most metrics? Boozer, but who was the defender that was banging in the post and delaying the shot just enough for Boozer to come over from the weak side for the blind block? Most metics aren't giving the initial defender any credit there at all.

Bringing it back to Karaban, do you think you have an accurate measurement for all the pressure he puts on a defense by being a movement shooter and not just a stand still recipient of a swing pass? Is there a metric that gauges all the wear and tear that causes on a defenders legs throughout the game? A player like Boozer shoots 40% from three, but we all know from watching the game that his three point shot is vastly different from Karabans in terms of the gravity and effort a defender has to put into defending it.

I appreciate the post but I really think there is a failure in understanding how in depth metrics have become. When you say "Mullins doesn't get any credit on that play..." that is simply not true. Most advanced metrics absolutely award credit to Mullins. Taking it further, the metrics will adjust how much credit to give him based on the 4 specific players he is playing with (so he will get more credit when Reibe is on the court vs Reed because Reibe is a worse defender), the opposing team and players that are on the court, home/away/neutral location - it will even account for the time of game and the score of the game. So, help defense is not weighted the same if you are up by 30 or if are up by 10 and it is not weighted the same if you are playing Duke vs Butler.

Simply put, every players ratings are adjusted on every single possession and that adjustment has probably a dozen or more variables that determine that adjustment.

When you analyzed that play, did you factor in the opponent, all 10 players individually on the court, the time, the score, the location? I know I sure as hell didn't - it is impossible! That is why the metrics tell a far better picture.

 

[alexd]

I swear the tipped pass by SD, the steal by BM, the pass to AK, the pass back to Mullins and his quick release and swish, all looked like a designed play. No one could have designed it any better. 😂

 

[aceboon]

both AK and Mullins were incredibly in sync after the tip passed in a situation that should have been hectic, Mullins even had the presence of mind to start checking where his feet were after the tip so that he didn't get a backcourt violation