Ivy League Sued Over No Athletic Scholarship Policy

[kibblesnbits]

If they win this then aren’t all scholarship limits at risk? For example, wouldn’t it be collusion for all FBS schools to agree to the limit of 85 football scholarships?

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I think their argument that other prestigious schools (that are not Ivies but are on par with Ivies) offer athletic scholarships is gonna be the biggest thing at play here. It’s a valid argument.

Why didn't they go there? If the suit is insinuating some level of "collusion", then succumbing to what everyone else is doing sounds like...collusion. I seriously don't see how they can win this when they chose freely to accept these terms of admission.

 

[maple]

Why didn't they go there? If the suit is insinuating some level of "collusion", then succumbing to what everyone else is doing sounds like...collusion. I seriously don't see how they can win this when they chose freely to accept these terms of admission.

I’m not arguing that. The Ivy League is saying their brand value is affected by offering athletic scholarships.

If other prestigious schools on par with Ivy League schools offer athletic scholarships and it doesn’t ruin their prestige, then how exactly can the Ives claim they are somehow super special? My point is that the Ivies would have to prove that only their prestige, specifically, would be affected by offering athletic scholarships, and other schools on their level of academic prestige, are not.

I don’t think other prestigious schools like Vanderbilt or Stanford (for example) would appreciate the idea that they are lesser because they offer athletic scholarships.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I’m not arguing that. The Ivy League is saying their brand value is affected by offering athletic scholarships.

If other prestigious schools on par with Ivy League schools offer athletic scholarships and it doesn’t ruin their prestige, then how exactly can the Ives claim they are somehow super special? My point is that the Ivies would have to prove that only their prestige, specifically, would be affected by offering athletic scholarships, and other schools on their level of academic prestige, are not.

I don’t think other prestigious schools like Vanderbilt or Stanford (for example) would appreciate the idea that they are lesser because they offer athletic scholarships.

I think the Ivies get to self-determine what they consider prestigious as does a Vanderbilt or Stanford. I think this is dead in the water even before that definition is explored because...who is it for anyone other than a particular school to say what they will offer or not offer? Even if an athlete claimed they were being hurt by this policy, then the next question would be...why you enter into an agreement that you knew hurt or damaged you. I think I saw some rumbling not too long ago where schools (particularly Ivies) where they are pulling out of that US NEWS Top Universities survey. And there reasoning was basically...they didn't like the "criteria" used to make the determination. Stanford, Rice, Vanderbilt, Boston Colleges are elite academic institutions in their own right and Ivies not offering athletic scholarships doesn't change that. If an athlete receives 70k in financial aid with no label or 70k labeled "a scholarship"...what's the difference?

 

[maple]

I think the Ivies get to self-determine what they consider prestigious as does a Vanderbilt or Stanford. I think this is dead in the water even before that definition is explored because...who is it for anyone other than a particular school to say what they will offer or not offer? Even if an athlete claimed they were being hurt by this policy, then the next question would be...why you enter into an agreement that you knew hurt or damage you. I think I saw some rumbling not too long agao where schools (particularly Ivies) where they are pulling out of that US NEWS Top Universities survey. And there reasoning was basically...they didn't like the "criteria" used to make the determination. Stanford, Rice, Vanderbilt, Boston Colleges are elite academic institutions in their own right and Ivies not offering athletic scholarships doesn't change that. If an athlete receives 70k in financial aid with no label or 70k labeled "a scholarship"...what's the difference?

I agree with this. But then question would then be do the Ivies offer athletes financial aid equivalent to an atheltic scholarship? Do they promise one thing during recruiting and then actually give something else? Does it change year to year? I don’t know.

Personally I’m just throwing out hypotheticals. At the end of the day the Ivies can do whatever they want and it’s up to athletes to make their own (educated) decisions. I don’t have any stake in the game.

I’m just wondering if the plaintiffs have some kind of actual financial proof that they were/are not being fairly compensated or whatever.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I agree with this. But then question would then be do the Ivies offer athletes financial aid equivalent to an atheltic scholarship? Do they promise one thing during recruiting and then actually give something else? Does it change year to year? I don’t know.

Personally I’m just throwing out hypotheticals. At the end of the day the Ivies can do whatever they want and it’s up to athletes to make their own (educated) decisions. I don’t have any stake in the game.

I’m just wondering if the plaintiffs have some kind of actual financial proof that they were/are not being fairly compensated or whatever.

I feel you. Make that two of us. Not sure.

 

[Bone Dog]

I’m not arguing that. The Ivy League is saying their brand value is affected by offering athletic scholarships.

I’m not sure this characterization is accurate. Though if it were, the argument you imagine would be powerful. It’s not their brand they claim to be protecting but the academic mission of the institution. This isn’t a bulletproof logical position either, of course. But it’s one they can claim a decisive expertise with regard to, which the court will have to recognize, as well as the right to differ from analogous policy decisions made at comparable institutions.

 

[UcMiami]

I’m not arguing that. The Ivy League is saying their brand value is affected by offering athletic scholarships.

If other prestigious schools on par with Ivy League schools offer athletic scholarships and it doesn’t ruin their prestige, then how exactly can the Ives claim they are somehow super special? My point is that the Ivies would have to prove that only their prestige, specifically, would be affected by offering athletic scholarships, and other schools on their level of academic prestige, are not.

I don’t think other prestigious schools like Vanderbilt or Stanford (for example) would appreciate the idea that they are lesser because they offer athletic scholarships.

That Bold bit.
Until they get caught selling athletic scholarships to non-athletes which would never happen! Oh, never mind, that prestigious school in Palo Alto did just that didn't they.

But they would never compromise their academic integrity! Oh, never mind, that prestigious academic school in Chapelhill created a whole department with fake classes for academically challenged students.

Hmmm. Maybe the Ivy league has a point.

The Blue bit - I think the class action students need to prove that athletic scholarships are a fundamental right for all athletes admitted to a academic institution. The Ivy League is a college conference that has rules against offering athletic scholarships. Those other schools belong to conferences that have rules about how many scholarships may be offered for each sport.

No applicant to any college has a right to be admitted, or to be given a specific scholarship.

 

[maple]

That Bold bit.
Until they get caught selling athletic scholarships to non-athletes which would never happen! Oh, never mind, that prestigious school in Palo Alto did just that didn't they.

But they would never compromise their academic integrity! Oh, never mind, that prestigious academic school in Chapelhill created a whole department with fake classes for academically challenged students.

Hmmm. Maybe the Ivy league has a point.

The Blue bit - I think the class action students need to prove that athletic scholarships are a fundamental right for all athletes admitted to a academic institution. The Ivy League is a college conference that has rules against offering athletic scholarships. Those other schools belong to conferences that have rules about how many scholarships may be offered for each sport.

No applicant to any college has a right to be admitted, or to be given a specific scholarship.

I mean, are we gonna act like everyone who gets into an Ivy school is truly chosen because they are most “deserving”? There’s just as many nepo babies getting into Ivies as anywhere else. In fact I’d say that’s what Ivy League schools are notorious for. Those in glass houses, etc.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Ivy schools getting sued because they don't offer scholarships. What a world.

Here is an idea: don't go to an Ivy school if you want to get paid to play sports.

 

[JavaMan]

... If this lawsuit succeeds, then D2 and D3 are in big trouble.

Then JUCO, and Community Colleges?
.

 

[sun]

What the Ivies are doing is the reason why Federal legislation was introduced in 2021 that would allow college athletes to be considered employees so that they can organize and have rights to collectively bargain.
It seems like it's only a matter of time before players will eventually be able to form unions either by an act of Congress, a NLRB ruling or a court decision.

Congressional bill introduced would allow college athletes to form unions, become employees

abcnews.go.com

Whether it's called a scholarship or not, some of the Ivies have recognized the unions of Ph.D. graduate assistants because they're paid a stipend for their duties even though they don't pay tuition.
In a narrow ruling that applied only to Columbia, the NLRB said that its graduate assistants were employees.
And now Duke is trying to overturn that ruling to prohibit its graduate assistants from forming unions
The point is that they think that because they call the compensation something else that they're not employees.

MSN

www.msn.com

The bottom line from the athletes perspective is that college sports is a big profit generating business and they're being treated like free labor.
They're not being treated exactly like slaves but in a sense they are not being given their full rights to form what some would consider to be the Constitutionally protected right of freedom of association.
Maybe giving their athletes stipends instead of scholarships would somehow make the Ivies feel better.
The athletes duties must take way from their academics with all of the practicing & traveling & work outs.
I'm not sure where these cases will end up but it's only the beginning and they have politicians taking their side.

 

[Bigboote]

Regarding Sun's post above:

The issue of graduate assistants/fellows is much more complicated than athletic scholarships. Research-assistant stipends are often set by the professors the students work for. If your advisor is well-funded, then you're likely to get more support than if the advisor isn't well-funded. So it would be difficult for a union-contract-type agreement setting wages. Teaching-assistant stipends vary all over creation, varying quite a bit across departments even at the same university.

I dunno how it might work, but if unionizing graduate assistants would be a single unit across a university, that would seem to me akin to having a bargaining unit consisting of teachers, museum curators, musicians, engineers, and scientists. A history TA is very different from an EE research assistant on many levels, and that would need to be very carefully thought out before organizing.

 

[UcMiami]

Regarding Sun's post above:

The issue of graduate assistants/fellows is much more complicated than athletic scholarships. Research-assistant stipends are often set by the professors the students work for. If your advisor is well-funded, then you're likely to get more support than if the advisor isn't well-funded. So it would be difficult for a union-contract-type agreement setting wages. Teaching-assistant stipends vary all over creation, varying quite a bit across departments even at the same university.

I dunno how it might work, but if unionizing graduate assistants would be a single unit across a university, that would seem to me akin to having a bargaining unit consisting of teachers, museum curators, musicians, engineers, and scientists. A history TA is very different from an EE research assistant on many levels, and that would need to be very carefully thought out before organizing.

The sciences which often have huge external funding for research projects that are driven by individual professors and mostly outside of the departments control can have very high grad assistant stipends. The fine and liberal arts are not brimming with outside grants.