Ivy League Sued Over No Athletic Scholarship Policy

[Bone Dog]

I don’t know the full details of the lawsuit, and I’m professionally biased in favor of the schools that worry about the impact of funding D1 athletic programs on their academic mission. But this case could have far reaching implications for how we think about education, if the court grants the plaintiffs class action status.

Ivy League sued over its no-scholarship policy

A pair of basketball players from Brown allege in a federal lawsuit that the Ivy League's policy of not offering athletic scholarships amounts to a price-fixing agreement that denies athletes proper financial aid and payment for their services.

www.espn.com

 

[cancontent]

I don’t know the full details of the lawsuit, and I’m professionally biased in favor of the schools that worry about the impact of funding D1 athletic programs on their academic mission. But this case could have far reaching implications for how we think about education, if the court grants the plaintiffs class action status.

Ivy League sued over its no-scholarship policy

A pair of basketball players from Brown allege in a federal lawsuit that the Ivy League's policy of not offering athletic scholarships amounts to a price-fixing agreement that denies athletes proper financial aid and payment for their services.

www.espn.com

Oh boy. This is going to be interesting and contentious if it does become a class action suit.

My impression was that the financial aid provided enough that made it possible for players to attend without needing a scholarship. I know of several Canadians in men's basketball were able to attend Harvard and Princeton. Heard no grumblings with respect to the financial aid being an issue.

I don't fully understand how it works in the Ivy League, but is the difference that significant?

 

[Bone Dog]

They get need based financial aid typically including workstudy responsibilities. They also get admitted to an Ivy, which is not at all easy.

 

[maple]

I think their argument that other prestigious schools (that are not Ivies but are on par with Ivies) offer athletic scholarships is gonna be the biggest thing at play here. It’s a valid argument.

 

[Bone Dog]

I think their argument that other prestigious schools (that are not Ivies but are on par with Ivies) offer athletic scholarships is gonna be the biggest thing at play here. It’s a valid argument.

I think you're right. Also, the quote from the League Director seems like a misstep:

"The Ivy League athletics model is built upon the foundational principle that student-athletes should be representative of the wider student body, including the opportunity to receive need-based financial aid," she said.

Framing it as an issue of representation rather than as one of academic integrity invites a lot of rhetorical mischief. The claim that D1 athletic programs compromise a school's educational mission is one that resonates with faculty not alums or fans, and it is probably an undemonstrable belief. But I suspect this will be largely a rhetorical exercise about such beliefs and rather light on hard evidence. It will pit our very vexed notions of what eduction actually is (or should be) against a whole host of market-based legal technicalities. Does a school's right to protect a brand outweigh an athlete's right to compete fairly against athletes form other schools outside the league?

 

[sun]

Aside from the laws involved, I don't like there's a conference rule prohibiting athletic scholarships.
That smells like some kind of a conspiracy, collusion or quid pro quo among the schools.
Even if the suit has no legal merit, it might prompt the schools to consider discussion about changing their policy.

What's next, that the Ivy athletes become the first to form a player's union?
That would probably get a lot of support from all of the Ivy student bodies....charge!

 

[maple]

Aside from the laws involved, I don't like there's a conference rule prohibiting athletic scholarships.
That smells like some kind of a conspiracy, collusion or quid pro quo among the schools.
Even if the suit has no legal merit, it might prompt the schools to consider discussion about changing their policy.

Yep, as far as I can tell that’s exactly what the lawsuit is calling out.

I have to admit it is a bit strange to me that Ivy League schools do not offer athletic scholarships. If they were Div III it wouldn’t be an issue. But I don’t understand the idea that it impacts their brand. How, exactly?

 

[sun]

Yep, as far as I can tell that’s exactly what the lawsuit is calling out.

I have to admit it is a bit strange to me that Ivy League schools do not offer athletic scholarships. If they were Div III it wouldn’t be an issue. But I don’t understand the idea that it impacts their brand. How, exactly?

Maybe they believe that giving scholarships would signal that they're putting athletic ability over academic considerations?
They already practice One upmanship among themselves when it comes to academics anyway.
What would be so bad about acknowledging that they're already doing the same basic thing in athletics except without the scholarships?
Maybe the lawsuit can help to reveal the recruitment practices that are already happening so that the public can see how their backdoor folly works, that is if there's any to see. Wink wink!

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I see every student as a representative of the institution...not just athletes. If an athlete needs money, then they can receive it based on need just like all representatives of the institution. I know the term "student-athlete" gets thrown around, but these schools seem intent on emphasizing it. Their power is in their academic reputation, not their sports. If players want athletic scholarships, choose another school. The absence of an "athletic scholarship" isn't synonymous with no financial support.

 

[The deacon]

I see every student as a representative of the institution...not just athletes. If an athlete needs money, then they can receive it based on need just like all representatives of the institution. I know the term "student-athlete" gets thrown around, but these schools seem intent on emphasizing it. Their power is in their academic representation, not their sports. If players want athletic scholarships, choose another school. The absence of an "athletic scholarship" isn't synonymous with no financial support.

There you go, Lwrcasefan... well said!

No one twisted these people's arms to go Ivy. It's hardly a new policy, and countless incredibly talented athletes have 'survived' what one here called the Ivies' 'conspiracy,' including many whom I've known well. They've all been proud to play sports at Ivy League schools and were well taken care of financially by their respective colleges. I'd bet most of them are doing quite well in their post-grad years, too.

In today's litigious world, who knows where and how far this will go, but I've always loved that the Ivy League has maintained its balance between academics and athletics. I wish only that other colleges were able to do so, too.

 

[sun]

I see every student as a representative of the institution...not just athletes. If an athlete needs money, then they can receive it based on need just like all representatives of the institution. I know the term "student-athlete" gets thrown around, but these schools seem intent on emphasizing it. Their power is in their academic representation, not their sports. If players want athletic scholarships, choose another school. The absence of an "athletic scholarship" isn't synonymous with no financial support.

But why should athletes who don't need financial support be asked to pay their own way if they bring additional value to the school by playing a sport?
It's not so much about students in need not receiving financial support, but rather about those who can afford to pay not getting their fair share of support because the school doesn't put a value on their athletic contribution to the school's image.
No one would dispute that Princeton WBB improves the image of the school.
All of the players should be receiving full financial support, but are they all?
After all, the schools opted to play in Division 1.
It's possible that the Ivy League is nickel & diming their own athletes just because they may come from wealthy families & don't qualify for financial support.
That makes it sound like the Ivies could be cheapskates to their own detriment.
And the student protestors chanted, "Sue, sue, sue!"

 

[LwrcasefaN]

But why should athletes who don't need financial support need to pay their own way if they bring additional value to the school by playing a sport?
It's not so much about students in need not receiving financial support, but rather about those who afford to pay not getting their fair share of support because the school doesn't put a value on their athletic contribution to the school's image.
No one would dispute that Princeton WBB improves the image of the school. All of the players should be receiving full financial support, but are they all?
It's possible that the Ivy league is nickle & diming their own athletes just because they may come from wealthy families.
That makes it sound like the Ivies could be cheapskates to their own detriment.
And the students chanted, "Sue, sue, sue!"

SO...having the best academic students in the world doesn't bring value? You think all the straight A students get 100% compensation?

 

[Bone Dog]

But why should athletes who don't need financial support be asked to pay their own way if they bring additional value to the school by playing a sport?

It's a vexed question whether D! athletic programs add any value to a university. Generally, the faculty says no, and the advancement admins say yes. I'm always in a sticky position since, as a professor, I see what my colleagues see and take their side, but as a fan I admire the athletes and love to watch them compete. I don't claim to be self-consistent in this.

 

[Bigboote]

There you go, Lwrcasefan... well said!

No one twisted these people's arms to go Ivy. It's hardly a new policy, and countless incredibly talented athletes have 'survived' what one here called the Ivies' 'conspiracy,' including many whom I've known well. They've all been proud to play sports at Ivy League schools and were well taken care of financially by their respective colleges. I'd bet most of them are doing quite well in their post-grad years, too.

In today's litigious world, who knows where and how far this will go, but I've always loved that the Ivy League has maintained its balance between academics and athletics. I wish only that other colleges were able to do so, too.

Thank you, Deacon. I was going to make two points. The first is what you said. The lawsuit even acknowledged that the athletes have the choice to go to another elite universities that offers athletic scholarships. That to me says that if they have suffered any harm it's self-inflicted.

The other thing is, it's not like the Ivies are alone among elite universities in not offering athletic scholarships. Off the top of my head, Johns Hopkins, WashU, Chicago, Tufts, Brandeis . . . They're not Division I (in all sports*), but then should that really be a dividing line? We don't know if the plaintiffs were offered athletic scholarships to DI schools. I'll bet they weren't offered by the schools cited in the suit -- Duke and Stanford -- and I suspect if they'd been offered at Northwestern, they'd likely have bitten.

 

[Bigboote]

A couple of other things. The NCAA has been the big bad wolf a lot lately. Should they be sued over not allowing Division III schools to award athletic scholarships?

And how about the University of California system? UC Santa Cruz (famous for their Banana Slugs teams) doesn't offer athletic scholarships, while most (all?) the other campuses do. Does that mean that no UC campuses should offer them or that Santa Cruz should?

 

[Greenfan]

Can I add that the value of the Ivy education, and the career/ financial value of an Ivy degree could be considered value added. And might possibly exceed the dollar amount of an athletic scholarship.

 

[Dillon77]

I see every student as a representative of the institution...not just athletes. If an athlete needs money, then they can receive it based on need just like all representatives of the institution. I know the term "student-athlete" gets thrown around, but these schools seem intent on emphasizing it. Their power is in their academic reputation, not their sports. If players want athletic scholarships, choose another school. The absence of an "athletic scholarship" isn't synonymous with no financial support.

Absolutely correct. I was just discussing this with my brother yesterday and don't most Ivies have need-based grants for students whose families make under $150,000?

With all due respect, need-based grants are largely how many Ivies and other prestigious schools with large endowments funded non-revenue sports such as lacrosse, soccer, crew, fencing, etc. It is the model for academic powerhouses that are now also athletic studs in D3, from University of Chicago and Washington U of St. Louis to MIT and NYU.

Still, this is going to cause a more transparent, level look at the subject.

 

[Cornell Lt]

Can I add that the value of the Ivy education, and the career/ financial value of an Ivy degree could be considered value added. And might possibly exceed the dollar amount of an athletic scholarship.

That used to be the case. The modern day degrees are not worth what they used be.

 

[Cornell Lt]

This law suit will go no where. This is not like the last lawsuit which found the Ivy League Presidents colluded on what the cost/financial aid packages of an Ivy League education should be.

Athletes choose to attend Ivy League institutions they are not forced, they have many other options, both in terms of athletic choices and academic choices. The Ivy League is very open about not allowing athletic scholarships and it's been that way forever. It makes for a good headline but it will go nowhere.

 

[Bone Dog]

So the plaintiffs have to argue both that the Ivy education is worth more, and that it shouldn’t count as a benefit received. That’s gonna be tricky.

 

[Cornell Lt]

I agree with the the first part of your summation but I strongly disagree with the assertion that Ivy athletes are inferior to power 5 athletes. I can speak about athletes that I got to know while I worked at Cornell.

National champion wrestlers, Super Bowl champion football alumni, MLB baseball players, Stanley Cup champion hockey players, Olympic medalists in various sports in both summer & winter games, elite Lacrosse players, world class squash players and the list goes on.

 

[GoDawgs4]

This suit is the biggest bunch of malarkey I have read about in a long time. Simply put , if an athlete wants an athletic scholarship, sign with a college that offers them. The Individual Ivy League Schools policy is clear. They do not offer them and they should not be forced to do so. If nobody wants to play sports at their institutions then they will eventually shut them down.
To this point , they do not seem to be having a problem there with participation.
This is another case where someone wants to whine after the fact. You applied and attend the school and play sports under the agreement you made. If you don’t want to play under that agreement , then simply quit. Or transfer to a college that will give an athletic scholarship.

NO SCHOOL SHOULD BE FORCED TO OFFER ATHLETIC SCHOLARSHIPS. If they do so, that is fine.

 

[UcMiami]

I agree with the the first part of your summation but I strongly disagree with the assertion that Ivy athletes are inferior to power 5 athletes. I can speak about athletes that I got to know while I worked at Cornell.

National champion wrestlers, Super Bowl champion football alumni, MLB baseball players, Stanley Cup champion hockey players, Olympic medalists in various sports in both summer & winter games, elite Lacrosse players, world class squash players and the list goes on.

And many of those athletes are not getting scholarships at any university. Full ride scholarship sports are pretty limited for men and more sports allow only a few of a team's roster that can be divided into full and fractional scholarships. Women have a larger pool of sports with full ride scholarships as schools need to balance the number of football scholarships with women's scholarships across multiple sports.

I think this lawsuit is crazy:
1. Athletes chose an Ivy school knowing there was no scholarship offer - this is like walk-ons suing P5 schools because they aren't getting a scholarship.

2. This is not NIL - and I am sure the Ivy schools are complying, allowing their athletes any chance to sell NIL to anyone.

3. Are the courts actually going to order that any school that has D1 athletics has to give scholarships to every athlete on their team?

4. If this lawsuit succeeds, then D2 and D3 are in big trouble.

 

[Sifaka]

Things may or may not have changed since I was an Ivy League varsity jock in the 1960s, but here is how it was then.
1) I was recruited (encouraged to apply) by the old grads who came for a home interview. One wanted me to run cross country and track, based on my high school record in those sports. The other wanted me to play in the symphony and the marching band, as I had been in both the all county and all state orchestras.
2) There was no discussion of merit scholarships for music or sports. Both were considered recreational pursuits, secondary to academics. Financial aid was based on need only, not extracurricular activities.
The idea of getting paid to do things I loved—music and running—never occurred to me then, and seems crazy now. I went to that college to learn, and also enjoyed sports, music and lots of other non-academic activities.

I hope the suit is dismissed. What the plaintiffs want is contrary to the letter and spirit of what my college offered.

PS-a number of my classmates went on to play major league baseball, football in the NFL, and represented the U.S. as Olympians. I never heard any of them complain about the lack of sports scholarships.