It's quiet, too quiet...

[ctchamps]

The Dude would like you to discuss this on his radio show....

You can't really pick the show up unless you are wearing a special tin foil hat that directs the voices to speak directly inside your head. Obviously you have the hat already.

The problem with paradigms is that just when you are settling on one a new one comes along! I have no problem watching things play out! But nothing is sacrosanct. If the P5 start breaking down the national system it increases, not decreases, the chances for opening up new paradigms.

My friends felt I was wearing that hat when I advised them not to get into several market bubbles that ended up costing them! Sometimes thinking outside of the box is crazy. Sometimes it's logical. Time will tell!

 

[Sea Goat]

I dunno.

We missed a boat, not the boat.

A lot of scrapple has made it onto the lifeboats over the past decade - UConn's will come.

Agreed - if the P-5 conferences can find places for the likes of Syracuse, Pitt, Maryland, Rutgers, WVU and f...ing Louisville; there will be a place for us.

 

[buddy]

1) I'm thinking about the long game. In the short game, I don't see much movement. That has nothing to do with UConn, it's just that the parts that might move are encumbered by grants and I think the network checkbooks are exhausted. The is the exhale to the inhale that started with the ACC grabbing SU and Pitt and ending with UL replacing Maryland.

2) I think buddy has some troll in him - I'm not feedin' him.

I am not a troll. I am a heartbroken. Years and years of donations and attendance. I feel betrayed and I am angry.

 

[Adios]

Agreed - if the P-5 conferences can find places for the likes of Syracuse, Pitt, Maryland, Rutgers, WVU and f...ing Louisville; there will be a place for us.

Don't forget Wake Forest, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Iowa State, Kansas State, Washington State, Oregon State, Purdue, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, and, of course, Boston College.

18 schools listed.

 

[Dooley]

Don't forget Wake Forest, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Iowa State, Kansas State, Washington State, Oregon State, Purdue, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, and, of course, Boston College.

18 schools listed.

...and Colorado, Minnesota, Utah, Virginia, Arizona, Arizona State, Washington, Duke, UNC, NC State, Indiana, Missouri, Kansas, Ole Miss, and Mississippi State.

Up to 33 now. If UCONN isn't on par with these 33 schools, then they certainly aren't that far behind any of them to be shut out of the Power 5. The combination of athletic success across the board, athletic budget, academics and demographics should put UCONN somewhere in the middle of this list of 33...not sitting on the sidelines.

 

[Sea Goat]

...and Colorado, Minnesota, Utah, Virginia, Arizona, Arizona State, Washington, Duke, UNC, NC State, Indiana, Missouri, Kansas, Ole Miss, and Mississippi State.

Up to 33 now. If UCONN isn't on par with these 33 schools across the board, then they certainly aren't that far behind any of them to be shut out of the Power 5. The combination of athletic success across the board, athletic budget, academics and demographics should put UCONN somewhere in the middle of this list of 33...not sitting on the sidelines.

I was focusing on recent additions/movement to P-5 conferences, but you're right! UConn belongs and it is utter B.S. that we find ourselves in this position.

 

[billybud]

UConn is, unfortunately, feeling the effect of geography...and, maybe, culture.

I have always believed that culture and geography play a part when it comes to football...

Sure, Duke and Wake aren't football factories, but they have the advantage of being in the south and within pollinating distance of "football culture".

As some of you know, I am an FSU guy. And I think that FSU is a very imperfect fit in the ACC....which has become ungainly in terms of geography and culture.




If I could design an "athletic" conference that would be a good fit for FSU..I'd specify: (and UConn fans may specify quite differently for their dream conference):

{and feel free to design your own conference specs}

Note...I stated "athletic" conference and you will not see any mention of academics in my specs.

1...a conference that prioritizes football and is homogenous...large public state schools, located in college towns, with large stadiums on campus, little or no pro sport competition


2...a conference that plays "southern" or "southern like" football...e.g., where football is THE fall pastime and not something you watch when there is nothing else to do on a fall afternoon.

3...a conference where my team is strategically located to promote rivalries and border wars and where most teams are within a long day's drive.

4...a conference where baseball receives some priority.

(Do I sound like I am beating an SEC drum? You have an ear for rythmn.)

 

[Sea Goat]

UConn is, unfortunately, feeling the effect of geography...and, maybe, culture.

I have always believed that culture and geography play a part when it comes to football...

Sure, Duke and Wake aren't football factories, but they have the advantage of being in the south and within pollinating distance of "football culture".

As some of you know, I am an FSU guy. And I think that FSU is a very imperfect fit in the ACC....which has become ungainly in terms of geography and culture.




If I could design an "athletic" conference that would be a good fit for FSU..I'd specify: (and UConn fans may specify quite differently for their dream conference):

{and feel free to design your own conference specs}

Note...I stated "athletic" conference and you will not see any mention of academics in my specs.

1...a conference that prioritizes football and is homogenous...large public state schools, located in college towns, with large stadiums on campus, little or no pro sport competition


2...a conference that plays "southern" or "southern like" football...e.g., where football is THE fall pastime and not something you watch when there is nothing else to do on a fall afternoon.

3...a conference where my team is strategically located to promote rivalries and border wars and where most teams are within a long day's drive.

4...a conference where baseball receives some priority.

(Do I sound like I am beating an SEC drum? You have an ear for rythmn.)

So FSU wants "in" the SEC and is not a good fit for the ACC? Why did it sign a GOR?
Why didn't FSU dig its heels in? Why consign itself to 14 years in a conference it doesn't fit in?

Was FSU afraid that UNC or UVA would jump ship to the B1G or were UNC and UVA afraid FSU would jump ship to the SEC? A little of both?
(I suppose the rest of the ACC thought that if Maryland got a nod from the B1G, then anybody could a nod to the "Super 2" (B1G and SEC)?)

 

[hthusky74]

UConn is, unfortunately, feeling the effect of geography...and, maybe, culture.

I have always believed that culture and geography play a part when it comes to football...

Sure, Duke and Wake aren't football factories, but they have the advantage of being in the south and within pollinating distance of "football culture".

As some of you know, I am an FSU guy. And I think that FSU is a very imperfect fit in the ACC....which has become ungainly in terms of geography and culture.




If I could design an "athletic" conference that would be a good fit for FSU..I'd specify: (and UConn fans may specify quite differently for their dream conference):

{and feel free to design your own conference specs}

Note...I stated "athletic" conference and you will not see any mention of academics in my specs.

1...a conference that prioritizes football and is homogenous...large public state schools, located in college towns, with large stadiums on campus, little or no pro sport competition


2...a conference that plays "southern" or "southern like" football...e.g., where football is THE fall pastime and not something you watch when there is nothing else to do on a fall afternoon.

3...a conference where my team is strategically located to promote rivalries and border wars and where most teams are within a long day's drive.

4...a conference where baseball receives some priority.

(Do I sound like I am beating an SEC drum? You have an ear for rythmn.)

You are right. FSU belongs in the SEC.

 

[UConn Dan]

So FSU wants "in" the SEC and is not a good fit for the ACC? Why did it sign a GOR?
Why didn't FSU dig its heels in? Why consign itself to 14 years in a conference it doesn't fit in?

This is simple. The SEC doesn't want FSU -- they don't add anything and FSU knows this. The SEC presidents have a gentleman's agreement that they will not add schools from within their current states. If the SEC wants to expand it will take North Carolina and Virginia Tech (assuming a GOR would not hold these back which currently it does).

FSU could have gone to the Big 12 if it had wanted, but then it would have a problem of Texas size proportions. FSU and B1G are not a good fit for each other, thus they decided to stick with the ACC.

 

[hthusky74]

This is simple. The SEC doesn't want FSU -- they don't add anything and FSU knows this. The SEC presidents have a gentleman's agreement that they will not add schools from within their current states. If the SEC wants to expand it will take North Carolina and Virginia Tech (assuming a GOR would not hold these back which currently it does).

FSU could have gone to the Big 12 if it had wanted, but then it would have a problem of Texas size proportions. FSU and B1G are not a good fit for each other, thus they decided to stick with the ACC.

Only reason FSU isn't in the SEC is the Gators.

 

[billybud]

This is simple. The SEC doesn't want FSU -- they don't add anything and FSU knows this. The SEC presidents have a gentleman's agreement that they will not add schools from within their current states. If the SEC wants to expand it will take North Carolina and Virginia Tech (assuming a GOR would not hold these back which currently it does).

FSU could have gone to the Big 12 if it had wanted, but then it would have a problem of Texas size proportions. FSU and B1G are not a good fit for each other, thus they decided to stick with the ACC.

Exactly....FSU talked to the SEC...as President Barron said, adding another Florida team would not affect the SEC's network income and it did not make financial sense for the SEC.

The Big 12 was a no go...Barron said that there was very little that was appetizing for FSU fans about being in a division with Kansas, Iowa State, Kansas State, WVU, and probably Baylor. It made no real sense. He also noted that FSU had few alumni in the Big 12 states other than in Texas. The Texoma division did not want to split...

The Big Ten actually would have been a weird fit even if FSU miraculously obtained AAU status....

From ESPN this weekend:

"For much of the past two years, conference shake-ups have been as hotly debated a subject as anything in college football, and Florida State was often at the center of those discussions. But after FSU president Eric Barron joined his colleagues around the ACC in signing the latest grant of rights agreement -- ensuring all TV revenue rights belong to the ACC through the 2026-27 season -- the rumblings about large-scale changes to the college football power structure have fizzled.

"There's almost no discussion at all," Barron said. "I think the fact that the speculation [from schools] is gone and the worry is gone means that the issue is basically disappeared."

Barron said university presidents around the country "breathed a sigh of relief" at the prospect of a more stable landscape, but for Florida State fans, it's something of a double-edged sword. As much as stability was desired, a vocal contingent within the fan base was eager for Florida State to explore its options on the open market, and many were less than thrilled with the grant of rights deal.

But while speculation and rumors drove the affiliation debates during much of the past few years, Barron said the realities of the situation weren't nearly as clear cut.

Florida State employed a team of analysts, including an outside consultant, to dig up data on the real revenue streams the school might gain by a potential switch in conference affiliation, and the best analysis Barron had at his disposal suggested FSU benefited most from staying put.

"We went through this carefully with all of our trustees -- where the marketplace and where the TV contracts were sitting, where the growth in TV viewerships are likely to be as well as some of the other aspects of the conference," Barron said. "I think you come to the conclusion that the ACC is quite strong in that regard."

 

[billybud]

For many of the older fans (from Independent days), the ACC has never seemed a good fit for FSU. It has taken 22 years to build a rivalry...and one is finally budding with Clemson.

Many of us (Nole guys) view the Tobacco Road crew as basketball forward programs that have not devoted the energy and resources necessary to build a strong football conference.

Furthermore, FSU joined a southern-mid Atlantic conference in 1992...the additions of Pitt, Syracuse, and Boston College moved the conference north...and FSU has both Syracuse and Boston College in the division while only playing its oldest and closest rival (GT) once every six years. A Florida team playing in Boston and Syracuse is a clumsy, artificial fit with zero chance of any rivalry or football excitement.

When teams align with conferences, sometimes the matches made are imperfect...such was FSU's with the ACC and WVU's with the Big 12.

 

[UConn Dan]

For many of the older fans (from Independent days), the ACC has never seemed a good fit for FSU. It has taken 22 years to build a rivalry...and one is finally budding with Clemson.

Many of us (Nole guys) view the Tobacco Road crew as basketball forward programs that have not devoted the energy and resources necessary to build a strong football conference.

Furthermore, FSU joined a southern-mid Atlantic conference in 1992...the additions of Pitt, Syracuse, and Boston College moved the conference north...and FSU has both Syracuse and Boston College in the division while only playing its oldest and closest rival (GT) once every six years. A Florida team playing in Boston and Syracuse is a clumsy, artificial fit with zero chance of any rivalry or football excitement.

When teams align with conferences, sometimes the matches made are imperfect...such was FSU's with the ACC and WVU's with the Big 12.

I know football is different, but UConn did have a nice budding rivalry with Miami in basketball -- a lot of close games when both teams were good. So I believe even with distance a rivalry can occur if you play each other with enough regularity and both teams are at the same level of competition. But you won't get that with BC or Cuse -- their best days are behind them.

UConn is a sleeping giant in the northeast -- the school has a lot of support and great facilities. With the right coach we can win.

 

[Sea Goat]

Only reason FSU isn't in the SEC is the Gators.

It seems to me that Rick Scott could have solved that problem in a second a la Gov. Warner did re: VT and the ACC in 2003.

 

[Dooley]

I think that billybud is right: there is a stark contrast to southern vs northern football culture. Down south, it's a religion. Up here, it's an entertainment option. I don't know why that is. More entertainment choices up here? Nicer weather down there? Who knows? But it is what it is and that's why I don't think UCONN is a good fit for any conference with a strong southern presence. We can compete with the "northern pod" of the ACC but UCONN would always have a difficult time beating FSU or Clemson in football. I might be in the minority here, but I like the fact that UCONN is good in alot of things and just doesn't excel in one thing. Obviously, I want the football program to be MUCH better than 0-4 and subjecting itself to 2+ seasons of a Paul Pasqualoni/George DeLeone regime. But I like the fact that after football season is over, we always have a nationally ranked soccer team finishing up its season, nationally ranked men's and women's basketball teams (women's basketball is not for me but it is for many people in the state), a hockey program moving to Hockey East, and a rapidly rising baseball program that is about to bombard MLB in 2014 and beyond with some serious talent currently developing in AA or AAA. I don't want to give up the men's basketball presence in NYC either. We've worked long and hard to become NYC's #1 MBB (sorry Fruit Flies) and I love it when the Garden rocks out U-C-O-N-N chants. Plus, I am proud to hold a degree from UCONN and would like to see UCONN align itself with other top academic institutions (certainly not Louisville or WVU).

So, with all that in mind (and taking into account that we don't get any of this from the AAC), here would be my ideal conference qualities:

1. northern presence primarily for better travel arrangements;
2. primarily public universities with strong academics...I have no interest in being aligned with lousy schools like Louisville, Memphis or WVU. Athletics come and go, season to season, but strong academic reputations endure over the long haul. I want my degree protected or even appreciate in value over time;
2. good football with good bowl tie-ins but not necessarily all located in the South (I like football played in the elements...to me, that's more football than playing in a dome or a bright sunny day);
3. good basketball with ties to games (or a conference tournament) at MSG/Barclay's;
4. ability to play in a competitive hockey conference;
5. a home to nurture our rising baseball program to continue to pump out top talent as in recent years.

Hmmm...I wonder what conference I'm describing?

 

[bobbyinaz]

Exactly....FSU talked to the SEC...as President Barron said, adding another Florida team would not affect the SEC's network income and it did not make financial sense for the SEC.

The Big 12 was a no go...Barron said that there was very little that was appetizing for FSU fans about being in a division with Kansas, Iowa State, Kansas State, WVU, and probably Baylor. It made no real sense. He also noted that FSU had few alumni in the Big 12 states other than in Texas. The Texoma division did not want to split...

The Big Ten actually would have been a weird fit even if FSU miraculously obtained AAU status....

From ESPN this weekend:

"For much of the past two years, conference shake-ups have been as hotly debated a subject as anything in college football, and Florida State was often at the center of those discussions. But after FSU president Eric Barron joined his colleagues around the ACC in signing the latest grant of rights agreement -- ensuring all TV revenue rights belong to the ACC through the 2026-27 season -- the rumblings about large-scale changes to the college football power structure have fizzled.

"There's almost no discussion at all," Barron said. "I think the fact that the speculation [from schools] is gone and the worry is gone means that the issue is basically disappeared."

Barron said university presidents around the country "breathed a sigh of relief" at the prospect of a more stable landscape, but for Florida State fans, it's something of a double-edged sword. As much as stability was desired, a vocal contingent within the fan base was eager for Florida State to explore its options on the open market, and many were less than thrilled with the grant of rights deal.

But while speculation and rumors drove the affiliation debates during much of the past few years, Barron said the realities of the situation weren't nearly as clear cut.

Florida State employed a team of analysts, including an outside consultant, to dig up data on the real revenue streams the school might gain by a potential switch in conference affiliation, and the best analysis Barron had at his disposal suggested FSU benefited most from staying put.

"We went through this carefully with all of our trustees -- where the marketplace and where the TV contracts were sitting, where the growth in TV viewerships are likely to be as well as some of the other aspects of the conference," Barron said. "I think you come to the conclusion that the ACC is quite strong in that regard."

It's easy for Barron to say that today when the revenues from the ACC & the SEC are similar but what happens when/if the SEC Network takes off? There is probably a 50/50 chance of it being successful but lets say for now that it does become a big success.

How will FSU feel when Florida & other SEC schools are making $10-$15MM more per year than them?

I think it is the same with the ACC schools who could have gone to the B1G (Carolina & Virginia). Right now at $20MM per yr the ACC schools look at it and say the change in culture of going to the B1G is not worth an extra $5MM. As we've seen from the projections provided to Maryland, what happens if the B1G, after it signs it's new contract is generating $35-$40MM per year for their member schools. Now the question becomes is the culture change worth it for double the money?

IMO, realignment is going to stay quiet for a few years while ESPN starts & builds the SEC Network and the B1G contract comes up for negotiation. If the SEC & B1G do hit homeruns and start generating $30MM+ for their schools we could see ACC & Big 12 schools doing anything & everything they can to get to one of those leagues. This will not be good for UCONN because there are too many schools ahead of them in line to get to one of those leagues

 

[UConn Dan]

IMO, realignment is going to stay quiet for a few years while ESPN starts & builds the SEC Network and the B1G contract comes up for negotiation. If the SEC & B1G do hit homeruns and start generating $30MM+ for their schools we could see ACC & Big 12 schools doing anything & everything they can to get to one of those leagues. This will not be good for UCONN because there are too many schools ahead of them in line to get to one of those leagues

But it will be better than the current situation we're in... we'll essentially be back in the old big east with some ACC schools.

Change is good.

 

[billybud]

It's easy for Barron to say that today when the revenues from the ACC & the SEC are similar but what happens when/if the SEC Network takes off? There is probably a 50/50 chance of it being successful but lets say for now that it does become a big success.

How will FSU feel when Florida & other SEC schools are making $10-$15MM more per year than them?

I think it is the same with the ACC schools who could have gone to the B1G (Carolina & Virginia). Right now at $20MM per yr the ACC schools look at it and say the change in culture of going to the B1G is not worth an extra $5MM. As we've seen from the projections provided to Maryland, what happens if the B1G, after it signs it's new contract is generating $35-$40MM per year for their member schools. Now the question becomes is the culture change worth it for double the money?

IMO, realignment is going to stay quiet for a few years while ESPN starts & builds the SEC Network and the B1G contract comes up for negotiation. If the SEC & B1G do hit homeruns and start generating $30MM+ for their schools we could see ACC & Big 12 schools doing anything & everything they can to get to one of those leagues. This will not be good for UCONN because there are too many schools ahead of them in line to get to one of those leagues

FSU could get $30 million more a year and not have what Florida rakes in now.....soooo?

Look...TV money is nice, but that isn't where the money is. So FSU got $18 million from the ACC last year in TV bucks?....out of an approximately $78 million athletic revenues.

The reason that Ohio State, Alabama, and Florida make big bucks is the huge numbers of fans contributing and purchasing tickets in large stadiums.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

I didn't realize Florida was that far ahead of Florida State in terms of athletic revenues.

Is it really as simple as the fact that Florida State's schedule is far less appealing?

FWIW, growing up in NJ and living in NYC I've always seen more Florida State gear as they were always one of the "cool" teams like Miami to root for. Based on that, I've always thought FSU had a higher profile nationally. I suppose if you switched conferences between the two, the revenue would switch big time as well.

 

[billybud]

I didn't realize Florida was that far ahead of Florida State in terms of athletic revenues.

Is it really as simple as the fact that Florida State's schedule is far less appealing?

FWIW, growing up in NJ and living in NYC I've always seen more Florida State gear as they were always one of the "cool" teams like Miami to root for. Based on that, I've always thought FSU had a higher profile nationally. I suppose if you switched conferences between the two, the revenue would switch big time as well.

Florida has a great deal more money available than FSU...it is centrally located...an hours drive from Orlando and Tampa and Jacksonville.....easy for access for football fans. As costs of travel go up and convenience of access starts counting even more, the Gators are well situated.

FSU is fairly isolated at the top of Florida's big bend....not close to Tampa, Orlando, or Jacksonville nor any metropolitan center.

 

[hthusky74]

For many of the older fans (from Independent days), the ACC has never seemed a good fit for FSU. It has taken 22 years to build a rivalry...and one is finally budding with Clemson.

Many of us (Nole guys) view the Tobacco Road crew as basketball forward programs that have not devoted the energy and resources necessary to build a strong football conference.

Furthermore, FSU joined a southern-mid Atlantic conference in 1992...the additions of Pitt, Syracuse, and Boston College moved the conference north...and FSU has both Syracuse and Boston College in the division while only playing its oldest and closest rival (GT) once every six years. A Florida team playing in Boston and Syracuse is a clumsy, artificial fit with zero chance of any rivalry or football excitement.

When teams align with conferences, sometimes the matches made are imperfect...such was FSU's with the ACC and WVU's with the Big 12.

Frankly, Clemson belongs in the SEC too.

 

[hthusky74]

Florida has a great deal more money available than FSU...it is centrally located...an hours drive from Orlando and Tampa and Jacksonville.....easy for access for football fans. As costs of travel go up and convenience of access starts counting even more, the Gators are well situated.

FSU is fairly isolated at the top of Florida's big bend....not close to Tampa, Orlando, or Jacksonville nor any metropolitan center.

On the other hand, FSU is closer to most of the other SEC schools.

 

[billybud]

Tallahassee's city limit is only 16 miles from the Georgia border and 50 miles from the Alabama border.

 

[upstater]

It's not just a northern-southern thing. Football isn't as big in the ACC, as billybud pointed out. There's nothing wrong with not making college football the central focal point of your entire life.

And really, if the SEC teams don't get that, and FSU doesn't understand, they should try playing only among themselves to see how far they'll get. My guess: not far. You can't whittle down competition to 20 teams that live for nothing else. It can't work that way.

I don't know why people get inferiority complexes when a school like, say, Creighton draws 17k to bball games. So what? Apparently, there's little else to do there. Congrats to them.