it's about time - Go Geno

[Jerry27]

I don't care what whether we split or not. But blaming ND for our situation, and acting as if they don't bring any value, is dumb. With all due respect to the special needs kids and their families I don't know any other way to explain how "developmentally disabled" those two ideas are.

oh my god no one is blaming them, we want them to be a full member of our conference, do you get that???? People are tired of the half in model, it doesn't work for one half of the business partnership, come in fully or go somewhere else, see how it works out for them.

 

[BlueMAB]

oh my god no one is blaming them, we want them to be a full member of our conference, do you get that???? People are tired of the half in model, it doesn't work for one half of the business partnership, come in fully or go somewhere else, see how it works out for them.

Yes, people are blaming them. I didn't say you, or everyone, but people are blaming them. You choose to not to see what's right in front of your eyes. Like the quote from Geno. "Join in football, THEN look out for your best interest." That is obviously an admission that joining is more about the Big East being saved rather than ND's situation being improved. Unless you think they are really better off joining the Big East than being an independent.

I never said you couldn't be tired of it, and I never said anyone should be happy about it. I said it's stupid to blame ND for taking a deal offered to them, it's stupid to act like they aren't relevant just because they lost some football games when you readily admit they can save the conference, it's stupid to try and pretend there's a difference between football relevancy and marketing relevancy, it's stupid to pretend their basketball program doesn't bring value to the contract (ever watch UConn/ND on CBS the past few years?), and it's stupid to expect them to act in our best interest, which is what you're doing when you say or agree with "Join in football, then look out for your best interest."

Those ideas are so mentally handicapped. Does that PC nonsense make you feel better?

 

[B1GEast]

Yes, people are blaming them.


Yes. I am blaming ND and the BE leaders for allowing this relationship to exist in its current state. It was never appropriate, an unwise strategy that failed.

 

[Jerry27]

Yes, people are blaming them. I didn't say you, or everyone, but people are blaming them. You choose to not to see what's right in front of your eyes. Like the quote from Geno. "Join in football, THEN look out for your best interest." That is obviously an admission that joining is more about the Big East being saved rather than ND's situation being improved. Unless you think they are really better off joining the Big East than being an independent.

I never said you couldn't be tired of it, and I never said anyone should be happy about it. I said it's stupid to blame ND for taking a deal offered to them, it's stupid to act like they aren't relevant just because they lost some football games when you readily admit they can save the conference, it's stupid to try and pretend there's a difference between football relevancy and marketing relevancy, it's stupid to pretend their basketball program doesn't bring value to the contract (ever watch UConn/ND on CBS the past few years?), and it's stupid to expect them to act in our best interest, which is what you're doing when you say or agree with "Join in football, then look out for your best interest."

Those ideas are so mentally handicapped. Does that PC nonsense make you feel better?

The whole arguement is about saving the conference, yet you don't get that. The arrangement doesn't work for the current situation that the BE is in. Sorry but that is a weak attempt by bringing up ND playing UConn on CBS in basketball. I would watch UConn play anybody on CBS, we are the draw there not ND, that is why when they do beat us people make a big deal about it, similar to when we beat them in football. Is that too complex for you, you clearly being a Domer might believe that people are watching for ND but just another example of the rediculousness of your position. ND's other sports have benefitted tremendously from being in the BE, sadly the football portion of the BE cannot say the same for it's arrangement with ND, where ND can take Bowl games from BE teams that qualify but yet give nothing back to the conference.
You fail to see this point or address it, I've asked several times, I'll go once more. What benefit does our current association with ND bring to the BE? We do not have the luxury to wait them out anymore, if we are to survive as a conference we need them on board. If they are unwilling to do that then they need to be cut loose across the board. With them gone we will have actually a better situation only in the respect that we will not have teams passed over once every four years for bowl game for a ND team that is not giving anything back to the conference that they take the spot from.
The failure of the conference has nothing to do with ND but in the current situation the past arrangement does not help they are more than welcome to come aboard but if they're not willing then they need to go entirely.

 

[SubbaBub]

I don't care what whether we split or not. But blaming ND for our situation, and acting as if they don't bring any value, is dumb. With all due respect to the special needs kids and their families I don't know any other way to explain how "developmentally disabled" those two ideas are.

I didn't say they they brought no value. I don't think they bring enough value for the current arrangement. We get a soild men's BB program and the Champs Sports Bowl at the cost of the stablity of the conference. If you paid $1000 for a hamburger, you would be getting value for your $$, but not $1000 in value. ND is our $1000 hamburger because, in all league matters there are not two competing factions, there are three. In their own self interest in preserving the status quo, ND has mostly sided with BB. Today, they are against the interests of both FB and BB, if they allow the BE to disband FB and will seek other BB affiliation. I'll say it again, the relationship has run it's course and in hindsight was bad for the BE FB. It is now bad for BE BB. The BB schools should realize this and ask them to join for all sports or move along in the interests of the basketbal schools. They do not share the goals of the BE conference. I don't see how they could ever be a trusted partner. Time for them to be told, "Thanks, but we need to move on."

 

[BlueMAB]

The whole arguement is about saving the conference, yet you don't get that. The arrangement doesn't work for the current situation that the BE is in. Sorry but that is a weak attempt by bringing up ND playing UConn on CBS in basketball. I would watch UConn play anybody on CBS, we are the draw there not ND, that is why when they do beat us people make a big deal about it, similar to when we beat them in football. Is that too complex for you, you clearly being a Domer might believe that people are watching for ND but just another example of the rediculousness of your position. ND's other sports have benefitted tremendously from being in the BE, sadly the football portion of the BE cannot say the same for it's arrangement with ND, where ND can take Bowl games from BE teams that qualify but yet give nothing back to the conference.
You fail to see this point or address it, I've asked several times, I'll go once more. What benefit does our current association with ND bring to the BE? We do not have the luxury to wait them out anymore, if we are to survive as a conference we need them on board. If they are unwilling to do that then they need to be cut loose across the board. With them gone we will have actually a better situation only in the respect that we will not have teams passed over once every four years for bowl game for a ND team that is not giving anything back to the conference that they take the spot from.
The failure of the conference has nothing to do with ND but in the current situation the past arrangement does not help they are more than welcome to come aboard but if they're not willing then they need to go entirely.

You're right, when Marquette is playing ND on CBS this year, Marquette is the draw, not ND. ND is on tv almost as much as any other school in the conference, and more than traditional teams like Nova. Yet you believe they aren't a draw. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, it's wrong, but you're entitled to believe that. If ND has nothing to do with our games being on CBS, then why aren't the USF games on CBS? Or DePaul? or Rutgers? etc, etc.

The basketball schools aren't kicking them out, I don't know why that is difficult for you to understand. The options are for the football schools to split, or continue the relationship, because nobody is getting kicked out. I've already said I'm fine if we split, but don't think our bowl arrangements will improve without ND, they won't. You claim they don't give anything back, but we wouldn't have had the Gator or Champs without them, and the basketball contract wouldn't be as high without them. These are facts, not opinions. So when you claim they don't bring anything to the table, you're wrong. You want them gone, so you ignore the value they add, but they do add value. Sure, it doesn't make us stable, but if you think the conference will be more stable without ND, then you don't understand at all what is behind conference re-alignment. The conference isn't suffering because the basketball schools have different goals, the conference is suffering because some of the football teams had better options and chose to excercise them.

I've been telling you what the association brings to the conference this entire thread, but you choose not to see what's right in front of your eyes.

I get that people want rid of them, I've said that repeatedly. But just because you want them gone, doesn't mean they don't bring anything to the association. If they didn't, the relationship would have been over with years ago. It's not hard to understand that.

 

[BlueMAB]

I didn't say they they brought no value. I don't think they bring enough value for the current arrangement. We get a soild men's BB program and the Champs Sports Bowl at the cost of the stablity of the conference. If you paid $1000 for a hamburger, you would be getting value for your $$, but not $1000 in value. ND is our $1000 hamburger because, in all league matters there are not two competing factions, there are three. In their own self interest in preserving the status quo, ND has mostly sided with BB. Today, they are against the interests of both FB and BB, if they allow the BE to disband FB and will seek other BB affiliation. I'll say it again, the relationship has run it's course and in hindsight was bad for the BE FB. It is now bad for BE BB. The BB schools should realize this and ask them to join for all sports or move along in the interests of the basketbal schools. They do not share the goals of the BE conference. I don't see how they could ever be a trusted partner. Time for them to be told, "Thanks, but we need to move on."

I don't think I said you did.

I was laughing at the people calling them parasites. As if they don't help the big east, and are responsible for killing it. That's ridiculous.

The basketball schools are not going to do that, the writing is on the wall, the conference is just about dead, and the basketball schools would be more than happy to continue the relationship with ND because of the value they bring to the conference.

We either 1) split, rebuild, and hope it works out, or 2) continue the relationship, rebuild, and hope it works. But ND isn't getting kicked out because it's not in the best interest of the basketball schools. They lost Pitt, lost Cuse, could lose WVU, Louisville and/or UConn. They need ND badly to help with the TV contract if a split occurs or the football side continues to lose members.

 

[BlueMAB]

The whole arguement is about saving the conference, yet you don't get that. The arrangement doesn't work for the current situation that the BE is in. Sorry but that is a weak attempt by bringing up ND playing UConn on CBS in basketball. I would watch UConn play anybody on CBS, we are the draw there not ND, that is why when they do beat us people make a big deal about it, similar to when we beat them in football. Is that too complex for you, you clearly being a Domer might believe that people are watching for ND but just another example of the rediculousness of your position. ND's other sports have benefitted tremendously from being in the BE, sadly the football portion of the BE cannot say the same for it's arrangement with ND, where ND can take Bowl games from BE teams that qualify but yet give nothing back to the conference.
You fail to see this point or address it, I've asked several times, I'll go once more. What benefit does our current association with ND bring to the BE? We do not have the luxury to wait them out anymore, if we are to survive as a conference we need them on board. If they are unwilling to do that then they need to be cut loose across the board. With them gone we will have actually a better situation only in the respect that we will not have teams passed over once every four years for bowl game for a ND team that is not giving anything back to the conference that they take the spot from.
The failure of the conference has nothing to do with ND but in the current situation the past arrangement does not help they are more than welcome to come aboard but if they're not willing then they need to go entirely.

I'm a domer? LMAO. Why? Because I have common damn sense?

I've been a UConn fan my entire life. I've been to every bowl game we played in, including spending over 30 hours in the car to get to two of them. Spent another 48 hours in the car to get to Michigan and Notre Dame and back for those games. I'm still paying off the debt from my trip to the Fiesta Bowl. And I bought tickets through UConn when others I know bought in the secondary market, spent 1/3rd of what I did, and sat 40 rows closer in much better seats.

Just because I am able to use my head instead of my heart when it comes to a conversation on ND and their relationship with the Big East doesn't make me a domer. My heart says we should kick them out. My head says that isn't happening. You should start thinking and stop feeling, and then maybe you'll understand my point.

 

[FDNY99]

I took a second today after going to sit back and think about the following: What would be the make-up of the Big East if all the football schools that are left got swallowed up by another conference. It leaves a good quality basketball/olympic sports league that if schools like Butler and Xavier were added can hold their own against the Big Boys in tournament play. I can see ND being VERY happy being a member of a conference like this. I can see this happening before they join a conference for all sports.

 

[BlueMAB]

I took a second today after going to sit back and think about the following: What would be the make-up of the Big East if all the football schools that are left got swallowed up by another conference. It leaves a good quality basketball/olympic sports league that if schools like Butler and Xavier were added can hold their own against the Big Boys in tournament play. I can see ND being VERY happy being a member of a conference like this. I can see this happening before they join a conference for all sports.

As long as they have the opportunity to play for a national championship or in a BCS bowl as an independent that is exactly what they would do.

 

[FDNY99]

As long as they have the opportunity to play for a national championship or in a BCS bowl as an independent that is exactly what they would do.

Right now they have a BCS tie-in that I don't see them losing due to their NBC contract.

 

[Jerry27]

You're right, when Marquette is playing ND on CBS this year, Marquette is the draw, not ND. ND is on tv almost as much as any other school in the conference, and more than traditional teams like Nova. Yet you believe they aren't a draw. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, it's wrong, but you're entitled to believe that. If ND has nothing to do with our games being on CBS, then why aren't the USF games on CBS? Or DePaul? or Rutgers? etc, etc.

The basketball schools aren't kicking them out, I don't know why that is difficult for you to understand. The options are for the football schools to split, or continue the relationship, because nobody is getting kicked out. I've already said I'm fine if we split, but don't think our bowl arrangements will improve without ND, they won't. You claim they don't give anything back, but we wouldn't have had the Gator or Champs without them, and the basketball contract wouldn't be as high without them. These are facts, not opinions. So when you claim they don't bring anything to the table, you're wrong. You want them gone, so you ignore the value they add, but they do add value. Sure, it doesn't make us stable, but if you think the conference will be more stable without ND, then you don't understand at all what is behind conference re-alignment. The conference isn't suffering because the basketball schools have different goals, the conference is suffering because some of the football teams had better options and chose to excercise them.

I've been telling you what the association brings to the conference this entire thread, but you choose not to see what's right in front of your eyes.

I get that people want rid of them, I've said that repeatedly. But just because you want them gone, doesn't mean they don't bring anything to the association. If they didn't, the relationship would have been over with years ago. It's not hard to understand that.

Seriously? You're giving them credit for the CBS deal for basketball? They play one game on CBS - we happen to be on twice neither of which is against ND. The BE deal with CBS was established before ND joined up in 1995. You know that your arguement is very weak on this, if you seriously ND . BTW here's the breakdown for TV for basketball;
ND - 31 games
6 - BE Network
16 - ESPN channels (five games in an established early season tourney)
1 - CBS
1 - Mid Atlantic Network
7 - no TV coverage

UConn - 30 Games
3 - HDNet/VS (new early season tourney)
2 - CBS
12 - ESPN channels
13 - SNY
0 - no TV coverage

But this is about football. I said if they don't want to join in football then we should get rid of them entirely and I stand by that, I don't want to get rid of them for the sake of it. I said it several times I want them on board, so has everyone else, but ND doesn't want to, so they can take their "all other sports" and go play somewhere else. We can find an all sports member that can bring as much as they do in "all other sports" but actually contribute to the football side. Granted they won't have the name cache that ND has but that name is not doing anything for us on the football side. I can think of UCF as a really great candidate in that regard. They have a huge enrollment, 56,000 they are in the no. 19 tv market they bring competitive "all other sports" and loads of pontential from a football standpoint, and last I checked the Champs Bowl is located pretty close to them.

Did you happen to notice that you are the only one defending an old agreement that doesn't work for the conference anymore? This isn't about basketball or any other sport, its about football. Did I happen to mention this is about football?

BTW the Gator was a 50% deal meaning they could take the bowl 2 of every 4 years, see how that works? The current deal is 25% meaning they could take the bowl 1 of every 4 years.

Now class do you see what happened when the new deal for the Champs Bowl was put in place? That's right the amount that school ND could take away from Conference BE was reduced by half! Now if said school has only a 25% stake in the bowl game do you think its a credible statement to say that the conference in question would never have had that bowl game without said school? Just what I was thinking class!

 

[BlueMAB]

Did you happen to notice that you are the only one defending an old agreement that doesn't work for the conference anymore?

All you do is rant and rave, and then put words in my mouth to argue with.

I'm not defending the agreement, I'm laughing at the people delusional enough to blame ND instead of looking in the mirror. None of your bitching and moaning about ND, or me, disproves the following.

1) Notre Dame adds value to the basketball contract, much more than programs like DePaul, USF, Rutgers, Providence, Seton Hall, and some others. The fact they are on TV 30 times, and more than a school like Villanova is evidence of that. That our games vs them were on CBS the past few years is more evidence, not less. If you think UConn was the only reason, and ND had nothing to do with it, explain why EACH of our games vs. USF, Depaul, Seton Hall, Rutgers, etc, etc, haven't been on CBS or espn/espn2 the past few years. Or explain why ND vs. Marquette is on CBS this year. I'm not saying UConn has nothing to do with it, I'm saying it's delusional to pretend ND has no impact either.

2) Notre Dame isn't to blame for our current situation, the lack of tradition, prestige, and large fanbases; combined with better options for some of the members are the reasons we're here now. ND said they wouldn't join, didn't join, and we brought them on anyway. Blaming them for our willingness to bend to their conditions is delusional.

3) Notre Dame isn't going to join for football because it's not in their best interest. If you want to pretend this isn't true because their president hasn't held a press conference announcing it, fine, pretend away, but know that you're wrong. If joining the Big East was in their best interest, they would have joined years ago. Asking them to join now that Pitt/Quse are leaving and they should be good christians (looking at you Geno), is akin to asking UConn to join the MAC to help legitimize UMass' upgrade because we should be good neighbors. Asking them to "join, then look out for [their] best interest" is begging and pathetic, and I expect better from Geno.

4) Notre Dame provides stability for the basketball schools and they are not kicking them out. If the football schools split, they lose the best of the rest of the basketball programs except for Georgetown, Nova, and Notre Dame. If kicking Notre Dame out helped stabilize the conference, the basketball schools would agree to it. ND is the head of the expansion committee, do you really think that is an accident and the basketball schools don't want to stay associated with ND because they don't add any value?

If you're not going to disprove those points (and you can't) then anything else you post is a waste of your time.[/quote][/quote]

 

[BlueMAB]

Right now they have a BCS tie-in that I don't see them losing due to their NBC contract.

I don't believe the contract has anything to do with it. The BCS is made up of a bunch of representatives from the schools, all with competing interests, but similar goals. They aren't likely to be the ones who push ND into a corner out of fear that their conference would lose out and be harmed.

Their tie-in is based on performance, just like the conferences. They have to meet certain requirements or be granted some sort of waiver, which they'll get if they need.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

a) ND brings nothing to the table and should have been kicked out a long time ago.

b) They are not the reason the Big East is in the situation it is in. The 8 football schools did that to themselves.