It's a Brave New World in WBB

[huskeynut]

You must be too young to see Kara Wolters play.

Not at all. Saw Kara play her entire career. She was not a bruiser. She was 6' 7" and no team had anyone who could deal with her down low. Kara's game was all about position under the basket.

 

[huskeynut]

Unless you happen to have a 6' 7" Kalani Brown

And how many teams had/ have a Kalani Brown? Very very few. There is always going to be an exception.

 

[oldhusky]

I think there will always be a place for dominant low post scorers, because when you have that, it is a great weapon for very high efficiency shots and getting teams in foul trouble. When combined with outside shooting talent, a big that requires double teaming is about the best thing that can happen for a deadly three point shooter.

Clearly position-less has evolved along with a greater emphasis on the three. I think the type of player that is being fazed out more, is the wing or guard that can't shoot the three. It used to be that you had to have at least one or two three point threats, but now positions 1-3 are expected to be good from there. If you have a quality player 1-3 that is not good from the three, teams may now try to compensate for that with a 4 that can, for example.

Trying to maximize low post scoring and spacing has made the need for a "second" low post scorer relatively less important as well, compared to an additional three point shooter. But having a low post option from somebody is still very important. As we can see with our own team, when Liv can't score down low against a top notch big, the rest of our offense stalls as well.

 

[MD#12Fan]

At one of the FF pressers a reporter asked Geno how the WNBA had influenced WCBB. Geno took a somewhat different tack in his answer, talking about how the NBA had influenced WCBB and basketball in general. He spoke about “position-less” basketball and spreading the floor where everyone can shoot the 3. If you watch the NBA recently, that is primarily how the games are played. That style of play has certainly filtered into both MCBB as well as the WNBA, and it is slowly but surely making its way into WCBB as well,

You need look no further than the BE to see a bunch of teams who spread the floor and shoot 3’s. In the case of the BE, this strategy is as much out of necessity as anything else. Doug Bruno’s DePaul teams have largely dominated the conference as an early proponent of spreading the floor and shooting 3’s. In addition, other than UConn, the rest of the BE does not have the size or overall talent to grind it out every night like the SEC.

Beyond the BE, the number of teams that are moving in the direction of the “spread the floor, shoot the 3" offensive mindset is growing significantly. IMO, the most talented team to fully embrace this type of basketball is MD. The Sweet 16 battle between a MD team that wanted to run the floor and shoot 3’s and a TX team that walked the ball up the court, used the 30-second clock and pounded the ball inside was truly a battle between the future and the past. In that instance, the past prevailed. But it was probably the biggest upset of the Tournament.

UConn is not all the way there yet, but the 2016 team had 5 talented players who could all knock down 3’s, and there was no team in the country that came within 10 points of beating them. This year Geno surprised many by going largely with a 4-guard offense that worked particularly well up until Nika’s injury. After the AR game, when the Razorbacks swarmed Liv in the low post, UConn gravitated to an offense that often left the lane open for players to drive to the basket, cut backdoor or pick and roll, effectively spreading the floor.

As WBB continues to evolve in this direction, I think it will have a significant impact on personnel. While small. explosive guards like Crystal Dangerfield and Aari McDonald will always be around, top teams will put a premium on big guards and wings who can shoot it, attack the basket, defend out to the arc and battle in the post on defense if they get caught on a switch against a Big.

More significantly, I personally believe the days of dominant post players like Aaliyah Boston and Elissa Cunane are numbered. I grew up before the 3-pt shot, watching the titanic battles between Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell. In today’s NBA, Chamberlain and Russell would have to develop significantly different skillsets to be effective.

In WBB, players with size who can handle the ball and shoot it are increasingly prominent: Nalyssa Smith, Ashton Prechtel and hopefully Dorka Juhasz to name a few. The gold standard of course are players like Stewie and EDD. I know, great players like Stewie and EDD don’t grow on trees. But right now, there are literally thousands of tall young girls, dribbling a basketball wherever they go and practicing 3-pt shots until they can’t lift their arms. It’s a Brave New World in WBB.

Great topic!
I'd like to see the discussion go a layer deeper!
What's the reason for this evolution? I think it is simply because the shot behind the arc is worth 3 points as opposed to 2. Simple math. If you watched the Warrior-Celtics game yesterday (wildly entertaining!!), 2 pointers down the stretch lose that game.
Even more important than 3's in my opinion is getting stops. How many teams in the League would give up big talent for Marcus Smart. Rim protection is still at a premium. It may not relate to 3 point shooting, but it relates to stops. Russell would still be an MVP. He runs the floor, scores in the paint, rebounds, and protects the rim. With Tatum and Brown, two of the League's biggest young stars, playing brilliantly, the Celtics have played brutally inconsistently. They don't have a center. Not sure why Ainge won't make the move on a center.
Guards that can break down a defense with penetration are still critical in this "formula". Kemba getting healthy is 100% responsible for the Celtics' improved play of late. Rondo was a huge component in the latest Lakers success. Watch a Dallas Maverick's game and lock in on Luka Doncic (hard NOT to do). It's all about drive and pitch, with 3-4 players spread out at the 3-point line with some screening. LeBron James for that matter.
Last point: I don't think Geno's passing game utilized Danger. She could have done much more penetrating. KLS' last year could have been more effective. Geno couldn't get her open. Out

 

[topogigio]

Move the 3 point line back for both men and women. Make it worth 3 points!

 

[JordyG]

At one of the FF pressers a reporter asked Geno how the WNBA had influenced WCBB. Geno took a somewhat different tack in his answer, talking about how the NBA had influenced WCBB and basketball in general. He spoke about “position-less” basketball and spreading the floor where everyone can shoot the 3. If you watch the NBA recently, that is primarily how the games are played. That style of play has certainly filtered into both MCBB as well as the WNBA, and it is slowly but surely making its way into WCBB as well,

You need look no further than the BE to see a bunch of teams who spread the floor and shoot 3’s. In the case of the BE, this strategy is as much out of necessity as anything else. Doug Bruno’s DePaul teams have largely dominated the conference as an early proponent of spreading the floor and shooting 3’s. In addition, other than UConn, the rest of the BE does not have the size or overall talent to grind it out every night like the SEC.

Beyond the BE, the number of teams that are moving in the direction of the “spread the floor, shoot the 3" offensive mindset is growing significantly. IMO, the most talented team to fully embrace this type of basketball is MD. The Sweet 16 battle between a MD team that wanted to run the floor and shoot 3’s and a TX team that walked the ball up the court, used the 30-second clock and pounded the ball inside was truly a battle between the future and the past. In that instance, the past prevailed. But it was probably the biggest upset of the Tournament.

UConn is not all the way there yet, but the 2016 team had 5 talented players who could all knock down 3’s, and there was no team in the country that came within 10 points of beating them. This year Geno surprised many by going largely with a 4-guard offense that worked particularly well up until Nika’s injury. After the AR game, when the Razorbacks swarmed Liv in the low post, UConn gravitated to an offense that often left the lane open for players to drive to the basket, cut backdoor or pick and roll, effectively spreading the floor.

As WBB continues to evolve in this direction, I think it will have a significant impact on personnel. While small. explosive guards like Crystal Dangerfield and Aari McDonald will always be around, top teams will put a premium on big guards and wings who can shoot it, attack the basket, defend out to the arc and battle in the post on defense if they get caught on a switch against a Big.

More significantly, I personally believe the days of dominant post players like Aaliyah Boston and Elissa Cunane are numbered. I grew up before the 3-pt shot, watching the titanic battles between Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell. In today’s NBA, Chamberlain and Russell would have to develop significantly different skillsets to be effective.

In WBB, players with size who can handle the ball and shoot it are increasingly prominent: Nalyssa Smith, Ashton Prechtel and hopefully Dorka Juhasz to name a few. The gold standard of course are players like Stewie and EDD. I know, great players like Stewie and EDD don’t grow on trees. But right now, there are literally thousands of tall young girls, dribbling a basketball wherever they go and practicing 3-pt shots until they can’t lift their arms. It’s a Brave New World in WBB.

It's a brave new world in BB in general, and positionless BB is the rule. That is until the Association changes the lane and moves the 3 pt line. Then you may see a return to dominance of the big posts, the mid range shot, and the end to players like James Harden who depends on the 3 pt shot and fouls to make his game.

 

[Gus Mahler]

I hope that women's college basketball never resembles the NBA. I like post play, defense and the intermediate game. I was a die hard Celtics fan until the game changed to be what it is now. I occasionally watch a little NBA and get bored extremely quickly. If the women's game evolves to look like the NBA, I'll probably start watching a local high school team.

Me too. I live in an NBA city, have little desire to see another NBA game. I watched the Chicago Loyola-Illinois debacle last month and found little to like. On the other hand, the UCLA/Gonzaga game was indeed interesting. And there was a lot to like in the men's final.

 

[Viet Vet]

It's a brave new world in BB in general, and positionless BB is the rule. That is until the Association changes the lane and moves the 3 pt line. Then you may see a return to dominance of the big posts, the mid range shot, and the end to players like James Harden who depends on the 3 pt shot and fouls to make his game.

James Harden relies on the absurd NBA interpretation of "travelling".

 

[baggerbob]

That 2001-02 team also had 2 pretty good 3-pt shooters in the lineup, who are still knocking down shots in the W today.

Spreading the floor does not necessarily mean that games degenerate into 3-pt shooting contests. If you play a 5-out offense, the best teams will execute backdoor cuts, pick & rolls and will have players capable of putting the ball on the floor and attacking the basket if opponents overplay the perimeter.

Watch Hughes offense in Seattle, spread the floor leaves room for players like Clark, and Howard to drive for easy buckets. Las Vegas learned that lesson in the playoffs.

 

[nwhoopfan]

James Harden relies on the absurd NBA interpretation of "travelling".

What's wrong with taking 7 steps without dribbling so you can get behind the 3 point arc?

 

[nwhoopfan]

Watch Hughes offense in Seattle, spread the floor leaves room for players like Clark, and Howard to drive for easy buckets. Las Vegas learned that lesson in the playoffs.

Except Clark and Howard are gone, so you won't be able to watch that anymore. I'm still extremely bummed about that.

 

[MD#12Fan]

At one of the FF pressers a reporter asked Geno how the WNBA had influenced WCBB. Geno took a somewhat different tack in his answer, talking about how the NBA had influenced WCBB and basketball in general. He spoke about “position-less” basketball and spreading the floor where everyone can shoot the 3. If you watch the NBA recently, that is primarily how the games are played. That style of play has certainly filtered into both MCBB as well as the WNBA, and it is slowly but surely making its way into WCBB as well,

You need look no further than the BE to see a bunch of teams who spread the floor and shoot 3’s. In the case of the BE, this strategy is as much out of necessity as anything else. Doug Bruno’s DePaul teams have largely dominated the conference as an early proponent of spreading the floor and shooting 3’s. In addition, other than UConn, the rest of the BE does not have the size or overall talent to grind it out every night like the SEC.

Beyond the BE, the number of teams that are moving in the direction of the “spread the floor, shoot the 3" offensive mindset is growing significantly. IMO, the most talented team to fully embrace this type of basketball is MD. The Sweet 16 battle between a MD team that wanted to run the floor and shoot 3’s and a TX team that walked the ball up the court, used the 30-second clock and pounded the ball inside was truly a battle between the future and the past. In that instance, the past prevailed. But it was probably the biggest upset of the Tournament.

UConn is not all the way there yet, but the 2016 team had 5 talented players who could all knock down 3’s, and there was no team in the country that came within 10 points of beating them. This year Geno surprised many by going largely with a 4-guard offense that worked particularly well up until Nika’s injury. After the AR game, when the Razorbacks swarmed Liv in the low post, UConn gravitated to an offense that often left the lane open for players to drive to the basket, cut backdoor or pick and roll, effectively spreading the floor.

As WBB continues to evolve in this direction, I think it will have a significant impact on personnel. While small. explosive guards like Crystal Dangerfield and Aari McDonald will always be around, top teams will put a premium on big guards and wings who can shoot it, attack the basket, defend out to the arc and battle in the post on defense if they get caught on a switch against a Big.

More significantly, I personally believe the days of dominant post players like Aaliyah Boston and Elissa Cunane are numbered. I grew up before the 3-pt shot, watching the titanic battles between Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell. In today’s NBA, Chamberlain and Russell would have to develop significantly different skillsets to be effective.

In WBB, players with size who can handle the ball and shoot it are increasingly prominent: Nalyssa Smith, Ashton Prechtel and hopefully Dorka Juhasz to name a few. The gold standard of course are players like Stewie and EDD. I know, great players like Stewie and EDD don’t grow on trees. But right now, there are literally thousands of tall young girls, dribbling a basketball wherever they go and practicing 3-pt shots until they can’t lift their arms. It’s a Brave New World in WBB.

Holy crap! Thinking about your post, I just saw the latest evolved creature. The Knicks- Pelicans game: Zion Williamson was bringing the ball up the floor. The Pels have Bledsoe and Ball to do that. What's it mean? Offenses starting from the wings versus the point. I would argue that that's what Geno did with Paige on the wing and Nika bringing it up.

 

[baggerbob]

Except Clark and Howard are gone, so you won't be able to watch that anymore. I'm still extremely bummed about that.

They have enough young players like Lou and Ezi, who will fit well in the system. Russell has developed very nicely since going to Seattle. Getting Williams in the second round should help in the future.

 

[MD#12Fan]

What's wrong with taking 7 steps without dribbling so you can get behind the 3 point arc?

Wow, there sure is a lot of "get off my lawn" attitude today. Apparently nobody saw the Celtics-Warriors game yesterday. Pure fun! Maybe the BY will go extinct too because of all of these changes to our game. Darn, I wish they had a jump ball after every score like Naismith called for. Darn shot clock, I miss those UVA- UNC games that ended up 8-7.
Sometimes it's not becoming to be so stodgy. It shows a lack of knowledge. (trying to be nice) The NBA is in a really good place right now. The playoffs are a month away and it should be fantastic.
I urge you to watch a game and Covid willing actually go to a game. An NBA game, especially playoff game is truly an event! Give it a try.

 

[nwhoopfan]

They have enough young players like Lou and Ezi, who will fit well in the system. Russell has developed very nicely since going to Seattle. Getting Williams in the second round should help in the future.

Clark and Howard could both put up points when the other team's D was focused elsewhere. That's not the irreplaceable part. They were the 2 best defenders for the Storm, that's what really has made them a Championship team 2 of the last 3 years. It's not gonna be the same without them. Add in Sami's D and energy off the bench, again not seeing a replacement for that. Storm will still be good, but I'll be surprised if they repeat.

 

[Viet Vet]

One thing for the sure, the tattoos have made their way from the NBA to the WNBA, and also both college women and men hoops. High schoolers have even adopted the tat look. What's interesting is that you don't see see that look as prevalent in other sports. Wonder how long Geno can go with the no visible tat look?

Until he loses too many recruits. Then the narrative will shift to becoming more "inclusive".

 

[Gus Mahler]

What's wrong with taking 7 steps without dribbling so you can get behind the 3 point arc?

I've said it dozens of times, not necessarily here: If it weren't for traveling, the NBA would have no game.

 

[baggerbob]

Clark and Howard could both put up points when the other team's D was focused elsewhere. That's not the irreplaceable part. They were the 2 best defenders for the Storm, that's what really has made them a Championship team 2 of the last 3 years. It's not gonna be the same without them. Add in Sami's D and energy off the bench, again not seeing a replacement for that. Storm will still be good, but I'll be surprised if they repeat.

We'll see how well Howard, and Clark do when the don't have Stewie, Loyd, and Sue around.

 

[Viet Vet]

I've said it dozens of times, not necessarily here: If it weren't for traveling, the NBA would have no game.

Completely agree. It's entertainment, not basketball.

 

[nwhoopfan]

We'll see how well Howard, and Clark do when the don't have Stewie, Loyd, and Sue around.

We already did. Storm still made the playoffs and won a first round game. Howard was an MVP candidate. Well they had Loyd part of the season, but she was in and out of the lineup and was not particularly effective that season.

We'll also see how Stewie, Bird and Loyd do w/out Howard around. Before she arrived Seattle had been around a .500 team who got bounced out of the first round of the playoffs.

 

[my2cents]

(adjusted)Paige was only able to get 13 shots off and only made 5! I just found it ridiculous to say that one on one Paige would take Ari to school..proof is in the pudding

You forgot the three shots she was fouled on, where she was 6-6 from the foul line...6 points equaling the same amount of points as if she made all three shots... 8-16 (adjusted) 18 points , just two points under her average....HARDLY OWNED.

 

[Littlemin]

You forgot the three shots she was fouled on, where she was 6-6 from the foul line...6 points equaling the same amount of points as if she made all three shots... 8-16 (adjusted) 18 points , just two points under her average....HARDLY OWNED.

Stats lie, you can argue the verb and spin stats but Bueckers did not have a huge impact on the game. Does not take away from her tremendous year one iota but while her stats are fairly comparable to McDonalds their respective influences on the game were light years apart.

 

[huskyd]

Did you watch the game? Ari took Paige out of her game.To be able to use her height advantage Paige would have to dribble by her and with Ari's quickness was unable to,nor could anyone else for that matter that's why she was 2 time DPOY in the Pac 12.As Ari said before the game she was really looking forward to guarding Paige..she made her point.

Paige's problem wasn't Aari, it was the lack of options for her to utilize. Buckets' game is not about scoring. If her teammates had stepped up and made fairly easy shots at the rim, there would have been no pressure on Paige to force the issue. Better still, UConn would have won the game comfortably.
No player in wcbb can carry a team alone. The nation's top scorer at Iowa could only take her team so far; without balance every team is at an ultimate disadvantage.

 

[TheFarmFan]

Another aspect in the future direction of WBB, is the development of more and more players who can create their own offense. For UConn fans who love the beautiful symphony of movement and passing that always places the Huskies among the nation’s assist leaders, I understand the reluctance to accept the inevitable change that will promote more one-on-one isolation play.

The 2014-15 UConn team still holds the all time NCAA record with 828 assists, or 21+ per game. But if we look at each of the past 4 national semifinal losses by the Huskies, one pattern emerged. Good defensive teams took UConn out of their offense by not allowing easy backdoor cuts or wide open catch and shoot 3’s, forcing UConn to play a style they were both less comfortable with and less effective at.

Going forward, among all the many talents that Paige possesses, her wonderful ability to create her own shot is the most important, imo, whether it’s off a high ball screen or simply a straight isolation. Add in the fact that both Christyn and Evina are pretty good at putting the ball on the floor and getting to their mid-range jumper or all the way to the rim and that’s an excellent trio of players who are capable of creating their own offense.

Finally, there is the prospect of Azzi, maybe the best HS player I’ve ever seen at getting to her “spot” and scoring. Hardly a “catch and shoot” player, Azzi is one of only a handful of WBB players who is adept at creating space at the arc off the dribble without losing accuracy shooting the ball. Azzi is even better at creating her own shot from mid-range with a textbook jumper that is absolutely a thing of beauty.

Between Haley Jones, Paige, and Azzi, that's three straight number one recruits who can really create their own offense in ways quite outstanding for a freshman and unusual even for a lot of top senior guards.

 

[oldude]

Between Haley Jones, Paige, and Azzi, that's three straight number one recruits who can really create their own offense in ways quite outstanding for a freshman and unusual even for a lot of top senior guards.

Haley Jones = the one that got away

 

[chrissaran]

Breanna would guard Diana, Morgan would guard Swin and Moriah would guard Sue. Diana would guard Breanna, Swin would guard Morgan and Sue would guard Moriah.

 

[MD#12Fan]

I've said it dozens of times, not necessarily here: If it weren't for traveling, the NBA would have no game.

You've said it dozens of times because it's old news. Watch a game! They've legislated traveling out of the NBA long ago. Harden's step-back is another story. Reminds me a little of the KLS hop before she shot. Harden is a freakishly good offensive player. You can acknowledge that, can't you?
How can people be basketball fans and not appreciate the greatest players on the planet? And arguably the greatest athletes in the world in general. I implore you to WATCH A GAME!!

 

[nwhoopfan]

Wow, there sure is a lot of "get off my lawn" attitude today. Apparently nobody saw the Celtics-Warriors game yesterday. Pure fun! Maybe the BY will go extinct too because of all of these changes to our game. Darn, I wish they had a jump ball after every score like Naismith called for. Darn shot clock, I miss those UVA- UNC games that ended up 8-7.
Sometimes it's not becoming to be so stodgy. It shows a lack of knowledge. (trying to be nice) The NBA is in a really good place right now. The playoffs are a month away and it should be fantastic.
I urge you to watch a game and Covid willing actually go to a game. An NBA game, especially playoff game is truly an event! Give it a try.

I've refrained from commenting about the NBA in general. Merely pointing out how silly it is with some of what they get away with.

 

[MD#12Fan]

I've refrained from commenting about the NBA in general. Merely pointing out how silly it is with some of what they get away with.

I honestly think it happens so fast that a certain amount of what you're talking about has to be let go. Television doesn't do it justice. NFL is the same. A friend of mine's cousin, Scott Foster is a prominent NBA ref and my friend told me stories about how Scott would get chastised for some of his calls early in his career. Like a defender slapping Shaq's arms. Every play would be a foul. Remember Shaq inside with 3 people hanging all over him. I think it's like watching Paul Bunyan, John Henry, Green Giant, Godzilla, King Kong, and the Marvel super heroes running around on a 94 foot rectangle. Impossible. I recommend sitting back and just enjoy the spectacle.
Yes, Steph Curry went 11-19 from 3, with people draped all over him, half of them from the parking lot! The greatest shooter in the history of basketball. Enjoy it. You might miss it and you'll be disappointed you did.

 

[nwhoopfan]

I honestly think it happens so fast that a certain amount of what you're talking about has to be let go. Television doesn't do it justice. NFL is the same. A friend of mine's cousin, Scott Foster is a prominent NBA ref and my friend told me stories about how Scott would get chastised for some of his calls early in his career. Like a defender slapping Shaq's arms. Every play would be a foul. Remember Shaq inside with 3 people hanging all over him. I think it's like watching Paul Bunyan, John Henry, Green Giant, Godzilla, King Kong, and the Marvel super heroes running around on a 94 foot rectangle. Impossible. I recommend sitting back and just enjoy the spectacle.
Yes, Steph Curry went 11-19 from 3, with people draped all over him, half of them from the parking lot! The greatest shooter in the history of basketball. Enjoy it. You might miss it and you'll be disappointed you did.

I grew up a big Blazers fan, but my NBA fandom was killed off by the superstar treatment. Funny you should bring up Shaq. I know he complained about how much he got fouled, but I remember him putting all 300+ lbs of his body right thru the sternum of countless defenders that were sent sprawling. Not only was an offensive foul almost never called against Shaq, most of the time the hapless defender got tagged w/ a foul. For just standing there and getting annihilated by a freak of nature. The worst ever was a playoff game against the Blazers. Shaq dunked it, did a pull up on the rim, swung his legs forward and karate kicked Sabonis in the chest. Sabonis grabbed onto Shaq's foot so he didn't fall over backward. Foul on Sabonis of course. Should have been a foul, T and probably thrown out of the game against Shaq. I just couldn't deal with that kind of garbage. I think the last straw was when the refs blatantly stole a Western Conference Championship series from the Kings and handed it to Shaq and Kobe in the mid 90s. I haven't followed the NBA more than casually since then. Stern was a habitual liar and a crook, and he was running the league for decades. He's long gone, but I just couldn't bring myself to go back to being a fan. (BRoy was a stud for a few years before his knees fell apart and Dame is a monster for the Blazers, but I hardly ever watch them)