It all comes down to Oklahoma | The Boneyard

It all comes down to Oklahoma

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junglehusky

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"We are being held hostage right now," Loftin said of being forced to stay in the Big 12. "Essentially, we're being told that you must stay here against your will and we think that really flies in the face of what makes us Americans for example and makes us free people."
 
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WVU owes the Big East (and UConn) nothing more than the contractually required notice and exit fee. I would be beyond dismayed if they were sued for leaving. There is no reasonable claim to be made. There were when the ACC raid occurred.
 
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WVU owes the Big East (and UConn) nothing more than the contractually required notice and exit fee. I would be beyond dismayed if they were sued for leaving. There is no reasonable claim to be made. There were when the ACC raid occurred.
Don't disagree, but how is it any different than what's going on in the BXII right now?
 
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1. I've said before, I have no reason to think Baylor or ISU has any non-frivolous claims against Texas A&M or the SEC. But, to be fair, maybe there are facts I don't know about.

2. My point is not about what the Big I plus baggage does. It's about UConn and the Connecticut, taxpayer funded AG's office. It would be awful if public resources were used to sue WVU which, frankly, has been more than a good partner over the years. I would oppose it strongly.
 
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1. I've said before, I have no reason to think Baylor or ISU has any non-frivolous claims against Texas A&M or the SEC. But, to be fair, maybe there are facts I don't know about.

2. My point is not about what the Big I plus baggage does. It's about UConn and the Connecticut, taxpayer funded AG's office. It would be awful if public resources were used to sue WVU which, frankly, has been more than a good partner over the years. I would oppose it strongly.
Its nice that you would oppose it. I myself wouldn't like it either, but if them leaving could potentially cost the remaining schools to lose their BCS bid, I would not expect that the leaders at these schools are just going to stand by with their hands in their pockets and say "those are the breaks". Inclusion in the BCS system is just too valuable, so if the presidents at these schools decide to go the route of lawsuit to preserve that inclusion, I wouldn't like it, but I would understand that they were just doing what they had to protect that valuable asset.
 

nelsonmuntz

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1. I've said before, I have no reason to think Baylor or ISU has any non-frivolous claims against Texas A&M or the SEC. But, to be fair, maybe there are facts I don't know about.

2. My point is not about what the Big I plus baggage does. It's about UConn and the Connecticut, taxpayer funded AG's office. It would be awful if public resources were used to sue WVU which, frankly, has been more than a good partner over the years. I would oppose it strongly.

1. The SEC disagrees with you, otherwise they wouldn't have asked for a waiver.

2. I don't think we have much of a claim against WVU, but I am not aware of the various conference agreements, and it seems unlikely that WVU's departure would be too damaging to the league.
 

UConnSportsGuy

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It is all a little strange. The SEC has set the precedent that they will not raid another BCS conference of another team unless the entire conference that is being raided signs off on it. Where do they find a 14th team if they must get buy in from the other conference?

Or are they going to hold WVU/Big East to a different standard than aTm/Big12? Would they steal WVU from the Big East after this whole charade of 'all of the conference being raided has to approve'? That would just be strange and very inconsistent.

This will be very interesting! I will definately be watching in 5 years when there is a made for TV movie about this whole conference re-org on ESPN.
 

zls44

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"We are being held hostage right now," Loftin said of being forced to stay in the Big 12. "Essentially, we're being told that you must stay here against your will and we think that really flies in the face of what makes us Americans for example and makes us free people."


For some reason, this absolutely slayed me. 5 minutes of solid laughter. Well done, sir.
 
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1. The SEC disagrees with you, otherwise they wouldn't have asked for a waiver.

2. I don't think we have much of a claim against WVU, but I am not aware of the various conference agreements, and it seems unlikely that WVU's departure would be too damaging to the league.

And they were granted that waiver.

Before it was rescinded.

Do you not believe that Texas A&M was granted that waiver verbally long before they officially announced their intentions?
 

FfldCntyFan

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Waylon, despite all of your posturing the possibility does exist that the SEC is just attempting to avoid a nuisance lawsuit.

The possibility does strongly exist that A&M (if they want to proceed without a lawsuit and as they claim do want to leave the B-12) can depart from the B-12, spend a year as an independent and then pursue other options. They also may have some grounds to countersue any B-12 school that attempts to bring suit against them for moving on. Every member of the B-12 was party to a similar scenario sixteen years ago when Rice, TCU, SMU and Houston were all left by the wayside when the SWC and B-8 rolled into the B-12. While the proceedings would do nothing for goodwill for any of the involved parties and could last quite a while, in the end any B-12 member claiming they are somehow being violated by A&M moving to the SEC doesn't hve a leg to stand on.
 
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Waylon, despite all of your posturing the possibility does exist that the SEC is just attempting to avoid a nuisance lawsuit.

in the end any B-12 member claiming they are somehow being violated by A&M moving to the SEC doesn't hve a leg to stand on.

How could anyone be so sure of this? If they lose money because their television contract is greatly reduced or they end up on the outside looking in of the BCS picture, it would seem that they were damaged. I guess the tricky part would be proving that A&M's departure was the only cause of this.

I don't like that Baylor or any school is taking this approach. In fact, they should be suing Texas for insisting on being treated better than anyone else, but there is just too much at stake with getting left out of the BCS. What current BCS conference is lining up to pick up Baylor? From their perspective it is the right move.
 

FfldCntyFan

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How does Baylor justify being on the good end of one of these transactions when the SWC crumbled but now that they are on the bad end, acting like this is wrong?

One other item on this; evidently OU remaining (allowing the B-12 to replace only A&M, reportedly with BYU) will allow A&M to leave. What if OU leaves? Is Baylor going to begin legal action against OU, A&M, the P-12 & the SEC? If OU walks first it could lead to Baylor suing every entity within the NCAA.

There has been far too much movement among conference members during recent years for this to be viewed as anything beyond normal business conduct. There could be a protracted battle here (after A&M leaves) but (stressing BL's point, shy of any language within the B-12's agreement that pertaining specifically to something such as this) in the end there is very little that can be done to prevent a school from changing conferences.
 

RS9999X

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First there was the BEVO-9.

Now it's the Baylor-8.

8 Presidents who won't waive their right to pursue litigation against the SEC and A&M. It doesn't mean they will sue, just that they won't sign any SEC paperwork. The SEC can go screw themselves if they think the Baylor-8 are going to sign any SEC paperwork or pay one dime to their lawyers to read SEC contracts because TAMU wants to leave.

Oklahoma remains TAMU's only stalwart friend in all this.
 
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How does Baylor justify being on the good end of one of these transactions when the SWC crumbled but now that they are on the bad end, acting like this is wrong?

Im not totally sure on this, but i don't think the bcs existed when the swc broke up and I know the television money wasn't it is today. The stakes have changed since the SWC broke up. The BCS has created a haves vs have not dynamic that exists today.

I agree with you, Baylor will probably lose this in the long run, but if you're Baylor you cannot stand by and potentially get left out of the BCS picture without putting up one hell of a fight. If UConn were in their predicament I would hope they do the same. They have to push the envelope and exhaust all options to hope to keep the Big 12 together or they become SMU, Rice etc.
 
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First there was the BEVO-9.

Now it's the Baylor-8.

8 Presidents who won't waive their right to pursue litigation against the SEC and A&M. It doesn't mean they will sue, just that they won't sign any SEC paperwork. The SEC can go screw themselves if they think the Baylor-8 are going to sign any SEC paperwork or pay one dime to their lawyers to read SEC contracts because TAMU wants to leave.

Oklahoma remains TAMU's only stalwart friend in all this.

I would not be shocked at all if the "Baylor-8" are really being directed by Texas behind the scenes.
 

Dann

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if texas/ok/okst all stay with the b12 they why dont they just clean it up and move on?
tex/ok/okst/tt/baylor/ist/kan/kst/mizzu
+byu/uh/tcu
then once mizzu/kan or who ever leave
+smu/latech etc etc
 

nelsonmuntz

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Waylon, despite all of your posturing the possibility does exist that the SEC is just attempting to avoid a nuisance lawsuit.

The possibility does strongly exist that A&M (if they want to proceed without a lawsuit and as they claim do want to leave the B-12) can depart from the B-12, spend a year as an independent and then pursue other options. They also may have some grounds to countersue any B-12 school that attempts to bring suit against them for moving on. Every member of the B-12 was party to a similar scenario sixteen years ago when Rice, TCU, SMU and Houston were all left by the wayside when the SWC and B-8 rolled into the B-12. While the proceedings would do nothing for goodwill for any of the involved parties and could last quite a while, in the end any B-12 member claiming they are somehow being violated by A&M moving to the SEC doesn't hve a leg to stand on.

Apparently FFCountyFan knows the SEC's legal position better than the SEC, which asked for a waiver. The fact that the SEC asked for the waiver serves as an admission of guilt in a legal proceeding. There is an old saying that it is better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. By asking permission, the SEC validated the Big 12's right to provide or withhold it. You can't put that genie back in the bottle.
 
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Yeah ... well, as our BL friend knows, each are these are driven by a different set of facts.

The one clear thing that is in my mind (in contrast to Blumenthal, the BE and that legal process) is that Baylor & the others HAD an agreement with a TV network that Texas A&M was a party to ... that will presumably go away (or, at least, have some potential). As I recall, Baylor was to get $15-17m of that. That's a far cry from where out money was in 2004.
 

FfldCntyFan

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Apparently FFCountyFan knows the SEC's legal position better than the SEC, which asked for a waiver. The fact that the SEC asked for the waiver serves as an admission of guilt in a legal proceeding. There is an old saying that it is better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. By asking permission, the SEC validated the Big 12's right to provide or withhold it. You can't put that genie back in the bottle.
Waylon, shy of any specific language that we are not aware of which would cause a current member leaving the current B-12 different from a member for another conference leaving their conference (including Colorado and Nebraska departing the B-12 a little more than a year ago) this is little more than a nuisance suit and the only party that could be liable (beyond any other conference movement) would be the party leaving the current B-12 (if and only if there is specific language in a new partnership agreement aloowing for this).

Baylor is grasping at straws in an attempt to remain a member of a major conference and the SEC at the moment doesn't want the bother of a lawsuit that could drag on for 20-30 months and give them a ton of bad press. This will resolve itself, It won';t happen as quickly as A&M would like but the reality is that Baylor (at least against the SEC) doesn't have a leg to stand on. They are merely the aggrieved party in a transaction similar to one they were party to (which damaged Rice, Houston, SMU & TCU) one and a half decades ago. By Christmas Baylor (and Kenneth Starr) will be the bad guys in the court ofn public opinion. Once this happens the SEC will be more than willing to make the offer official withhout the current conditions (signed waivers).
 

FfldCntyFan

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I would not be shocked at all if the "Baylor-8" are really being directed by Texas behind the scenes.

Of course they are. What baylor should require in this mess (but will never receive) is a pledge from UT that they will not attempt to go indepent at any time in the future. UT needs a conference with at least some credible members to get the LHN off the ground. A decade from now, if things go as planned, UT will have no use for the remainder of their conference and then move to independence (with a lesser conference as an associate for olympic sports).

This is primarily about UT laying the groundwork to move a few levels above all possible local competition (primarily OU but also A&M who they've been a half step above for quite some time). Baylor is just happy to be along for the ride.
 
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1. The SEC disagrees with you, otherwise they wouldn't have asked for a waiver.

2. I don't think we have much of a claim against WVU, but I am not aware of the various conference agreements, and it seems unlikely that WVU's departure would be too damaging to the league.

It is certainly possible the SEC knows facts that I don't. I'm only commenting on the law based on the facts as they are being reported.

If, e.g., the issue is that the schools individually (as opposed to the conference) signed a TV contract that didn't let them walk by fulfilling their obligations under the conference documents, that would be such a fact. Although it would be a duck* up by the lawyers of mammoth proportions (and one I'm hard pressed to believe happened because everyone knew future departures was a possibility). We will see.
 
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Does any of this B12 noise really matter? To me, this is merely background noise. Regardless of what the B12 does together or individually, seismic change is coming. Sometime in the very near future we will be left w/4 superconferences, each consisting of 16 teams. The facts point to certain BCS schools utimately finding themselves on the outside looking in. Baylor knows it, the entire dialog is simply a way for them to TRY and create leverage to find themselves among the final 64. They will likely fall short.

To me, the question is what is the BE or UConn planning to do to protect themsleves. Of course, if a school like KU refuses to sign off on A&M leaving, it makes it hard for them to engage in a dialog w/any conference, including the BE. Regardless, the B12 is likely done - the fact they stayed together last year was a minor miracle. But no conference can persist as a collective when one member has its own set of rules. Ignore the smokescreen that is Baylor and focus on the critical issue - how does UConn guarnatee itself a seat at the adult's table. Our day of reckoning will soon be here.
 

junglehusky

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As long as Oklahoma decides not to go west and take UT/TTU with them (I also heard if UT stays put, KU could go instead) I could see Baylor and friends playing hardball with TA&M for a few months, if the SEC still wants to avoid the possibility of litigation. After keeping them in a sort of limbo for a while, the Baylor 8 would then open diplomatic back-channels to A&M stakeholders and slowly try to bring them back in the fold. That's some Henry Kissinger type * right there...
 
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I keep hearing this Kansas to the Pac-? too, but I just don't see the sense of it. They aren't a football power. They are culturally and in every other way not a west coast oriented program nor is the school a good fit. They aren't some great market either. Seems to me there are lots of programs between LA and lawernce Kansas that would be a much better fit than the Jayhawks.
 
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