Is this really a problem?

[reno tony]

Is this a big problem at UCONN?

http://t.now.msn.com/uconn-to-ban-sex-between-students-and-faculty

 

[vtcwbuff]

Is this a big problem at UCONN?

http://t.now.msn.com/uconn-to-ban-sex-between-students-and-faculty

The faculty/student sex or the banning?

 

[reno tony]

I guess I didn't phrase my question very clearly. I should have asked was there such an abundance of sex going on that they thought it was necessary to ban it. And my addendum would have been...."What are they trying to accomplish?"

 

[meyers7]

ummm, it wasn't banned prior????

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

Is there a Prof around the Boneyard who could post on this?

 

[Icebear]

Maybe is is being banned because it is a way to take action and look assertive but to not have to impact anyone.

Makes the administration look like they are strong without any real costs.

 

[Fightin Choke]

Is there a Prof around the Boneyard who could post on this?

Not a UConn prof but I can weigh in. I have taught at a few colleges and never has there been a ban on student/faculty "fraternization." Many faculty meet their future spouses on campus, sometimes as faculty/staff pairings and yes, sometimes as faculty/student pairings. The important thing is that the student cannot presently be a member of the faculty member's class, but former students are considered acceptable, as the power dynamic is less pronounced. That doesn't mean that faculty that date students have the blessing of their colleagues, but rather that it is not an offense that would cost one their job. Remember that faculty are oftentimes close in age to their students, as there are many returning students nowadays. It's isn't typically 60-year-old faculty dating 20-year old coeds.

 

[Olde Coach]

There are rules against student/faculty hook-ups on many campuses; but the rules are often broken. In most cases, both the students and teachers are of "legal age"; and both are "by instinct" . Nature's callings are hard to regulate.

 

[tomcat]

I'm not a prof but work for a large community college organization, and discussion of this has come up from time to time. It is not something most educational organizations want to confront, and here's why: Faculty members, who on one level are supposed to set standards for behavior, pretty much have the power to behave as they like (because they have academic freedom, among other things). And, as Fightin 'Choke has said, in some cases, there's little age difference between students and profs. From time to time, from what I hear, academic institutions will propose some restrictions on fraternization, which are then quietly resisted by faculty. In my experience, the most conservative, hidebound group of people in the world is a college faculty. So regardless of the merits of an argument, faculty will rise up as one if they feel anyone is trying to restrict them in any way.

What most people forget is that regardless of the age of the faculty member and the student, the faculty member is, or could be, in a position of power over the student. That automatically makes the personal relationship an unfair one, even if both parties enter into it and engage in it with the best of intentions and behavior. Because as soon as something goes wrong with the academic relationship, things in the personal relationship are likely to go south as well. And if something goes wrong in the personal relationship first, anything that happens in the academic relationship can all too easily be blamed on personal retribution.

IMHO, the way it should be is this: If you have or could have an academic relationship with the student, you have no business engaging in a personal one with that person. Most educational institutions, from what I hear, disagree, or at least are unwilling to go to the mat to impose such a rule.

 

[JS]

What most people forget is that regardless of the age of the faculty member and the student, the faculty member is, or could be, in a position of power over the student.

Or vice versa, at least in the suspicions of other students and maybe in reality.

Of course, if you have an ulterior motive for having sex with the professor and he gives you an F in class, you can conclude one of two things. Either he can't be bribed, which reflects well on him but poorly on your judgment, or he can be bribed but the sex isn't good enough, which reflects even worse on you.

On the brighter side, if he has tenure, he probably won't run off anywhere. On the less brighter side, there's always a new freshman class, and you could be over the hill as a sophomore.

All in all, a dicey business. Not like pinning your hopes on Carlos Danger, but some definite pitfalls.

 

[Fightin Choke]

I'm not a prof but work for a large community college organization, and discussion of this has come up from time to time. It is not something most educational organizations want to confront, and here's why: Faculty members, who on one level are supposed to set standards for behavior, pretty much have the power to behave as they like (because they have academic freedom, among other things). And, as Fightin 'Choke has said, in some cases, there's little age difference between students and profs. From time to time, from what I hear, academic institutions will propose some restrictions on fraternization, which are then quietly resisted by faculty. In my experience, the most conservative, hidebound group of people in the world is a college faculty. So regardless of the merits of an argument, faculty will rise up as one if they feel anyone is trying to restrict them in any way.

What most people forget is that regardless of the age of the faculty member and the student, the faculty member is, or could be, in a position of power over the student. That automatically makes the personal relationship an unfair one, even if both parties enter into it and engage in it with the best of intentions and behavior. Because as soon as something goes wrong with the academic relationship, things in the personal relationship are likely to go south as well. And if something goes wrong in the personal relationship first, anything that happens in the academic relationship can all too easily be blamed on personal retribution.

IMHO, the way it should be is this: If you have or could have an academic relationship with the student, you have no business engaging in a personal one with that person. Most educational institutions, from what I hear, disagree, or at least are unwilling to go to the mat to impose such a rule.

Thanks for the flattering portrait, Tomcat! But seriously, I do not know of a single colleague who considers dating students a protected form of academic freedom! Again, you are not supposed to date anyone in your classes (nor are you to teach any relative: child, spouse, etc.) But once the student is no longer dependent on you for a grade, it's just considered two consenting adults. I know of many examples of faculty members dating graduate students, and in fact marrying them eventually. When you spend all your time on a college campus, most of your social interactions will be other faculty, staff, and students. Two of my uncles are retired faculty and both met their spouse on campus. (In both cases, they were staff members, not students who ever attended the school at which each taught.)

 

[pinotbear]

ummm, it wasn't banned prior????

My experience in this area is somewhat dated - back to the mid 90's - but, no, at that point it was commonly not banned at all. In fact, I remember a UVA professor writing a letter to the Chronicle of Higher Education, defending the practice of having sex with his students as beneficial to the student. I also remember, when the notion of a ban was introduced at Connecticut College, that some of the faculty protested vigorously. In fairness to that faculty, many of them were objecting more to the heavy-handed, dictatorial way in which it was being done, rather than the substance of the matter. As has been mentioned previously in this thread, faculty can regard themselves as tenured independent contractors who, simply, cannot be told what to do: you have to ask, and negotiate. I remember going to a Conn College Convocation where the Dean of the Faculty proclaimed "We ARE Connecticut College", which came as a bit of a surprise to the students, administrators, and staff members (many of whom worked far, far more hours and years than tenured,Monday-Thursday, sabbatical-taking faculty).

So, in short, until fairly recently, of-age students were considered fair game, if not one of the perks of a faculty position, and faculty are notoriously resistant to being treated like mere employees who have to do what they are told. Too many of them consider themselves above that sort of thing (the direction, not the self-control).

 

[ursusminor]

There's two questions here; relationships with undergrads, and relationships with graduate students. There was once a young man interviewing for a faculty position at my undergrad who hit on one of my friends during the meet-and-greet lunch. Our reaction was pretty universally "Ick, go get a job at a university that has graduate students."

A new professor may easily be younger than an older grad student, and, culturally, there isn't a lot of social taboo about grad students dating professors. Undergrads are a whole different story.

 

[Joe6cats]

Back when taught at Wesleyan some 20 years ago, occasionally friendships between a student and a faculty member became sexual, but it seemed to be rare. Most of my friends like myself, were junior faculty, so our ages were closer to student ages. The issue was exactly what Tomcat states: power imbalance. As one colleague said, it wouldn't be fair to someone whose attraction to you is influenced by your faculty status, even if you are not their teacher. Not everyone saw it that way. Once when the topic came up, a classics professor I knew said " Everybody sc***s a student sometimes, what's the big deal?" I think he was having us on.

 

[Fightin Choke]

There's two questions here; relationships with undergrads, and relationships with graduate students. There was once a young man interviewing for a faculty position at my undergrad who hit on one of my friends during the meet-and-greet lunch. Our reaction was pretty universally "Ick, go get a job at a university that has graduate students."

A new professor may easily be younger than an older grad student, and, culturally, there isn't a lot of social taboo about grad students dating professors. Undergrads are a whole different story.

I understand your point but I disagree because many undergraduate students are returning students who are much older than the stereotypical undergraduate. 38% of undergraduates in this country are 25 or older. The tails of the distribution suggest there are many undergraduates in their 30's. But the thought of professor hitting on an 18-year old is pretty much abhorrent.

 

[arty155]

My experience in this area is somewhat dated - back to the mid 90's...

Dated? On the contrary, Sir, your excellent points seem just as valid today, as they were back in that historic era!

 

[ursusminor]

I understand your point but I disagree because many undergraduate students are returning students who are much older than the stereotypical undergraduate. 38% of undergraduates in this country are 25 or older. The tails of the distribution suggest there are many undergraduates in their 30's. But the thought of professor hitting on an 18-year old is pretty much abhorrent.

I wasn't aware of that statistic; I would imagine most of those older undergrads are going to state or community colleges that are the most affordable and flexible. There's still a power dynamic at play that makes romantic relationships with undergrads less acceptable. Undergrads are distinctly students, whereas grad students are training to become your colleagues.

 

[UcMiami]

While I agree that student/faculty relationships have some imbalance, I would say that there are very few relationships that are beautifully balanced. And while fraternization may not be against a college's rules, the consequences of a bad ending to a relationship may in fact put the balance more in the students favor - complaints of sexual misconduct against faculty are taken very seriously by most if not all institutions. An outright ban only moves the bar higher on that aspect of fraternization.
The same can be said within the business world, too. Fraternization across levels in businesses that end badly can cause the business real legal problems and the higher ranked employee serious problems.
I am a bit ambivalent on the issue - human nature is pretty strong and personal attractions are going to occur among humans within any community and they will not always be appropriate based on age, responsibility, socio-economic standing, or real or perceived power. I am aware of a number of very successful student teacher relationships and a few really bad ones - about par for relationships in the general population.
NB - I do think there is an age level where it is clearly inappropriate and I would say that a Senior in college is generally at a very different level of personal development than a freshman. And I agree that grad students are very different than undergrads.

 

[Bigpetunia]

My appreciation to Tomcat for providing excellent insight into the true issues that pertain to this matter, and to UCONN for doing the right thing in enacting this ban in the first place. What strikes me as particularly obtuse are those comments that suggest that such relationships, while inappropriate with undergraduates, might justifiably be overlooked where graduate students are concerned. I am a retired doctor who, in addition to private practice, had a continuous teaching appointment at a major university for thirty-five years. My students were not graduate students...they were post-graduate. But any relationship between me and any of them, irrespective of my own marital status, would have been despicably inappropriate. The plain fact, as Tomcat articulately put it, is that any relationship, at any age, is highly inappropriate where the playing field isn't level going in, where there is an inherent imbalance of power. In my own case, for example, the opportunities for crossing that line were abundant and frequent, not because I am any Don Juan, but because there is an element of hero worship inherent in any such relationship that would not likely be a component of a relationship between the same two individuals if they met under different circumstances. So, if a level playing field is an essential component, the list of what should be forbidden interactions becomes fairly clear: Doctors and their patients, (especially, God forbid, psychiatrists and their vulnerable patients), clergy and their congregants (let's not even get into children!), students and faculty, even, in most cases, bosses and their employees. I know I sound excessively stiff-necked about this, but, a reasonable level of equity in the basic power structure of any relationship should really be the fundamental yardstick that governs behavior.

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

At the University where I profed for most of my adult life, we were required to attend yearly mandated seminars where the legal, psychological, class- other students issues, and personal effects and affects of intimate student –prof relationships were discussed in detail. Nowhere or at no time did anyone say that was anything “appropriate” about such relationships…no matter what, ..rather, it was indicated that as a Prof I must keep my hands to myself, my office door open, and my personal life separate from my professional life. I totally agreed with this. Still do.

 

[UcMiami]

My appreciation to Tomcat for providing excellent insight into the true issues that pertain to this matter, and to UCONN for doing the right thing in enacting this ban in the first place. What strikes me as particularly obtuse are those comments that suggest that such relationships, while inappropriate with undergraduates, might justifiably be overlooked where graduate students are concerned. I am a retired doctor who, in addition to private practice, had a continuous teaching appointment at a major university for thirty-five years. My students were not graduate students...they were post-graduate. But any relationship between me and any of them, irrespective of my own marital status, would have been despicably inappropriate. The plain fact, as Tomcat articulately put it, is that any relationship, at any age, is highly inappropriate where the playing field isn't level going in, where there is an inherent imbalance of power. In my own case, for example, the opportunities for crossing that line were abundant and frequent, not because I am any Don Juan, but because there is an element of hero worship inherent in any such relationship that would not likely be a component of a relationship between the same two individuals if they met under different circumstances. So, if a level playing field is an essential component, the list of what should be forbidden interactions becomes fairly clear: Doctors and their patients, (especially, God forbid, psychiatrists and their vulnerable patients), clergy and their congregants (let's not even get into children!), students and faculty, even, in most cases, bosses and their employees. I know I sound excessively stiff-necked about this, but, a reasonable level of equity in the basic power structure of any relationship should really be the fundamental yardstick that governs behavior.

Doctors and Nurses/Orderlies? Pilots and Flight Attendants? I am not trying to be obtuse here, but ... very few workplace relationships are truly 'balanced' and yet for single people that tends to be the largest pool of eligible mates and only in exceptional circumstances is the attraction formed at the exact same level of responsibility/rank/power. At some point people have to take responsibility for their own decisions. And while I am certainly not advocating relations between a student and his/her teacher, a relationship between a student and a faculty member that is not their teacher seems to me to be a grayer area.

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

Doctors and Nurses/Orderlies? Pilots and Flight Attendants? I am not trying to be obtuse here, but ... very few workplace relationships are truly 'balanced' and yet for single people that tends to be the largest pool of eligible mates and only in exceptional circumstances is the attraction formed at the exact same level of responsibility/rank/power. At some point people have to take responsibility for their own decisions. And while I am certainly not advocating relations between a student and his/her teacher, a relationship between a student and a faculty member that is not their teacher seems to me to be a grayer area.

All my students..in class, advisees, those who just wanted to talk Neuroscience and/or Psychology, those I did research with, were treated the same by me…with respect, and relationships were between our minds and intellectual development thereof. No special “personal attention” for any student. Frankly, to think that I would be seen, or have acted, in any other way is abhorrent to my sense of fairness.

 

[cabbie191]

Long ago when I was living in Boston, I had a friend who taught mathematics at one of the city's colleges. It was not unusual for me to sneak into the end of one of Jim's late afternoon classes on days when we going to do something.

On one of those days, a coed stayed a moment after class to ask him a question, and as she left, I could see a forlorn gaze on his face. I asked him if he was interested in her and his response - "I am totally infatuated with her." He wouldn't ask her out though since she was a student and didn't feel that would be proper, so I suggested he let her know he liked her right after the semester ended. He did and they were married 18 months later.

Jim and I were in our early 20's so there was not a large age difference in play here.

Another friend married her high school music teacher right after graduation. Still married 32 years later - their youngest of four boys just finished high school. They are 9 years apart in age.