Is The WNBA Folding?

[VAUConnFan]

One cannot help but admire how jplotinus defends his position. Well defended positions make for great debates, great discussions, and long battles.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

One cannot help but admire how jplotinus defends his position. Well defended positions make for great debates, great discussions, and long battles.

Nah. At some point, I just give up because there is no sense to his argument, unless you address the basic question of where the money comes from.

I also don't like folks who make accusations that just are not true. I'm not sympathetic to owners, but I get that they are in a "for profit" business. As near as I can tell, he wants the teams to operate like a charity and exist to provide entertainment and pay the players.

 

[Rb335]

I think it is hard to imagine the WNBA folding as it is finally getting more exciting (although I have always enjoyed it). With the rosters being reduced from 13 to 11, it is much harder to claim a roster spot. Also, high school classes from the AAU circuit are getting deeper, translating into deeper WNBA drafts. With an influx of better players, ie Maya Moore, Tina Charles, Griner, Delle Donne, Parker, over the last 6 years, most teams have deeper rotations. I can see from the few games this year that the competition seems more like NBA style basketball, although the scores aren't as close. When players like Kraayveld and Anosike, a proven All star, don't make rosters, it means competition is getting much better. I think over the next 5 years, as these primed recruiting classes reach the WNBA, the WNBA will have a bigger pool of better talent. You can already see roster with multiple superstars like the Miami Heat in Phoenix, LA, Minny, Conn, Indiana, and ATL. I think the WNBA is only just starting to tap into its potential.

Sidenote, the sponsoring of jerseys could be one of the things that has saved the WNBA through the recession, especially with teams folding.

 

[trisailin]

The thing I find most interesting about posts like the above is the degree to which they reflect a genuine, pure, unadulterated adoration of the ownership and management side of the equation.

One might ask, does the NBA and the independent owners of WNBA franchises need the help? Don't they already have (well) paid staffs consisting in business executives, sales people, accountants, lawyers, PR specialists and assorted assistants for all of the foregoing, all looking out for ownership interests?

Quite the contrary. Your post clearly proved my point. You HAVE NO IDEA of the actual budget of a WNBA team or the league as a whole. YET you claim to know the workers are underpaid.

As I said earlier - if it was so darn easy to just pay the players more, then all you have to do is go find investors willing to invest into your great idea (or put your own money into it) and have at it. If you aren't willing to take that step, all you are doing is spouting hot air - perfectly willing to tell somebody else how to run their business with their money.

 

[jplotinus]

Quite the contrary. Your post clearly proved my point. You HAVE NO IDEA of the actual budget of a WNBA team or the league as a whole. YET you claim to know the workers are underpaid.

As I said earlier - if it was so darn easy to just pay the players more, then all you have to do is go find investors willing to invest into your great idea (or put your own money into it) and have at it. If you aren't willing to take that step, all you are doing is spouting hot air - perfectly willing to tell somebody else how to run their business with their money.

Yes, that is what you said earlier and very likely what you will continue to say, not just twice but thrice or more.

I get it.

You see the labor/ownership dualism from the perspective of ownership. That is the side you see, hear and feel (for). Fine. That is how you roll. Yea for the owners. Right?

The players are no more obliged to accede to ownership's public poor house pronouncements than does the man in the moon. Players do not have to limit their demands to ownership threats to go out of business if they have to pay a team, say, $5million a year, instead of less than $1million.

Whenever the owners cry broke, the players should demand access to the books. Yes, the hidden ones too.

I note that you do not say that owners are obliged to learn how to do a 360 degree no look layup over the outstretched hand of Brittney Griner ( as did Shoni Schimmel). So, perhaps you will (or won't) here grasp that one side of a negotiation does not have to tailor its demands to the whims or fancies or arbitrary declarations of the other.

Oh, one other thing, I here assert women athletes are underpaid, not just relative to the product they produce, but also consistent with a social blind spot and norm that is both pervasive and perverse. It should not be allowed to exist in a 21st Century developed society.

The WNBA players have an opportunity to woman-up here. I hope they will use their incredible skill, talent and physical attributes to take a stance for themselves and working women everywhere.

Meanwhile, you can have lunch with the assistant to the owner's deputy dog. You know, the one who does the real work of cooking the books so the suits can keep on looking good.

 

[vtcwbuff]

JPlod - No matter how you spin it, the WNBA is a business. You've presented lots of arguments that the WNBA players are underpaid. Well no s*&t! Message to JPlod - everyone already knows that. The point is - can anything be done about it. My guess is no. The WNBA will sink or swim in the marketplace and player salaries will have nothing to do with that. Unless of course you think the government should step in and pass a law (Title 99) that female athletes in the WNBA should be paid the same as male athletes in the NBA because that is the fair thing to do.

What you can't seem to grok is that the money IS NOT THERE to pay them more. I don't see you presenting a single suggestion that would provide higher player salaries. Owners mortgaging their homes maybe? Do you have a clue about the expenses involved with running a business like this? Exactly how would you increase player salaries for a sport that so few people care about. The WNBA is a decade old and they have failed to attract enough fans to achieve league solvency. Attendance (and interest?) is stagnant at best.

 

[Icebear]

There is an argument to be made for the WNBA players being underpaid or at least under valued. It is to compare how they are valued and paid on the world market for the length of those seasons or the number of games vs their WNBA compensation.

 

[vtcwbuff]

There is an argument to be made for the WNBA players being underpaid or at least under valued. It is to compare how they are valued and paid on the world market for the length of those seasons or the number of games vs their WNBA compensation.

ICE - I agree that the world market is a different kettle of fish. In the European market there seems to be several dynamics at work (money laundering, prestige etc.). As for China I think that it is actual fan support that is driving salaries.

All of that means nothing to the WNBA if there is no support in the US. Better pay for the players won't fill the empty seats or increase TV viewership. A large part of the American sports audience considers wbb an inferior product and so far the WNBA has not been able to change that. FWIW the LPGA has had the same problem for many years.

I would suggest that it is because, in general, US women (the natural WNBA audience) don't support women's sports.

 

[Scotter]

ICE - I agree that the world market is a different kettle of fish. In the European market there seems to be several dynamics at work (money laundering, prestige etc.). As for China I think that it is actual fan support that is driving salaries.

It's not actual fan support driving salaries in China either.

 

[jplotinus]

JPlod - No matter how you spin it, the WNBA is a business. You've presented lots of arguments that the WNBA players are underpaid. Well no s*&t! Message to JPlod - everyone already knows that. The point is - can anything be done about it. My guess is no. The WNBA will sink or swim in the marketplace and player salaries will have nothing to do with that. Unless of course you think the government should step in and pass a law (Title 99) that female athletes in the WNBA should be paid the same as male athletes in the NBA because that is the fair thing to do.

What you can't seem to grok is that the money IS NOT THERE to pay them more. I don't see you presenting a single suggestion that would provide higher player salaries. Owners mortgaging their homes maybe? Do you have a clue about the expenses involved with running a business like this? Exactly how would you increase player salaries for a sport that so few people care about. The WNBA is a decade old and they have failed to attract enough fans to achieve league solvency. Attendance (and interest?) is stagnant at best.

I wish it were true that everyone knows WNBA players are underpaid, but I don't think that is the case. If anything, the media spin on the matter places emphasis on presenting the players as well paid and as highly valued. Little mention has been made of what the "3 to see" get paid. Rather, the focus this week was on Jay-Z giving Sky Dig a Mercedes. Lots of coverage of that, but little thought given to the fact that her WNBA salary is likely inadequate to pay for premium fuel for the guzzler she now has.

The larger point is that more attention does need to be focused on the exploitation the WNBA is engaging in. What they are doing is wrong and shameful, could more of us but realize it, own it and say it. Instead of willy nilly buying into owners and WNBA crying broke, more attention needs to be paid to a full understanding of WNBA economics, not merely taking at face value what is printed up on ESPN or some other corporate media source.

To get higher pay, the intention to do so and the willingness to make it happen must be formulated. The players obviously need PR help because few people seem to grasp the rank exploitation the players are being subjected to. On the other hand, the idea that the WNBA is broke and struggling and that Goliath, er, the owners need sympathy seems to have rooted, branched and blossomed full on.

That is PR at its finest.

Did you see Chicago v Phoenix today? Place was packed and lots of commercials aired. That whole thing had the look of money, honey; all around, all, that is, except the players.

Goliath doesn't need sympathy. The women players do.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Um, I was at the game. The entire upper reaches of the arena were closed. There were numerous, if scattered, empty seats in the lower level. I was enticed to go to the game with what amounted to $15 tix (usually higher than that), a free food voucher. Many of the courtside seats that cost a fair amount were empty. Concession stands were not overly busy and some were not open. Business in the team store was tepid. I have no idea if the reported attendance was "real" because I have never been to the arena before, but years of going to the Garden to see the Liberty convinced me that the Liberty inflated attendance beyond belief most of the time (after the first few years). A crowd half the size of the 9000 crowd the year before was 8000??? Right.

ESPN broadcasts what - 20 games? or less - in a season. Few games are broadcast except on the internet, and the few that are are often distributed on NBA-TV. Sometimes, it is the internet game - with 2 cameras and one announcer not in the building - that is seen on NBA-TV.

I am also tired of the assumption that the women's players are "stupid". Heck, their player union head was a lawyer in the beginning.

However, as long as you insist there is tons of money being made . . .

And PS - not one woman's player needs their WNBA salary - so if it is unacceptable, all they have to do is not play. DT, Bird, Griner going forward will all make much more overseas. So why don't you send them e-mails about how exploited they are and suggest they no longer play here.

 

[jplotinus]

Um, I was at the game. The entire upper reaches of the arena were closed. There were numerous, if scattered, empty seats in the lower level. I was enticed to go to the game with what amounted to $15 tix (usually higher than that), a free food voucher. Many of the courtside seats that cost a fair amount were empty. Concession stands were not overly busy and some were not open. Business in the team store was tepid. I have no idea if the reported attendance was "real" because I have never been to the arena before, but years of going to the Garden to see the Liberty convinced me that the Liberty inflated attendance beyond belief most of the time (after the first few years). A crowd half the size of the 9000 crowd the year before was 8000??? Right.

ESPN broadcasts what - 20 games? or less - in a season. Few games are broadcast except on the internet, and the few that are are often distributed on NBA-TV. Sometimes, it is the internet game - with 2 cameras and one announcer not in the building - that is seen on NBA-TV.

I am also tired of the assumption that the women's players are "stupid". Heck, their player union head was a lawyer in the beginning.

However, as long as you insist there is tons of money being made . . .

And PS - not one woman's player needs their WNBA salary - so if it is unacceptable, all they have to do is not play. DT, Bird, Griner going forward will all make much more overseas. So why don't you send them e-mails about how exploited they are and suggest they no longer play here.

Thank you for the first hand attendance survey, broadcast infomercial, discourse on ticket pricing, souvenir accountancy and concession analysis. The way I put it is catchier though. I just put it down to the NBA and owners crying broke.

Similarly, your observation on what the players need to do is more aptly communicated the way I've alluded to earlier; namely, take it or leave. (You eliminated the "it" part). By omitting the "it" after "leave," you appear to fall back on another time honored ditty, inviting them to leave the country, too, if they don't like low pay.

That is rich.

Well, I've got news for you: No, they're not leaving. And thank goodness. They add a lot to our social well being and are worthy of higher pay in recognition of their high level of skill and the enjoyment it brings. Some are willing to stand firm to see to it that the injustice of their low pay is reversed and overcome. This is a matter requiring fortitude and persistence.

Back to you.

 

[Icebear]

It's not actual fan support driving salaries in China either.

Fans are never the only thing driving perceived value. It is one metic and the dominant one in the US.

One potential decision for the best stars of the WNBA is to simply decide to play only over seas denying the US market their talents. I don't think it will work but if the WNBA closed the end result will be the same.

Another metric is the advertising value of media exposure time of product as used by NASCAR. The WNBA seems to be moving a bit in this direction with sponsored teams. 40 minutes of Go Daddy, Lifelock, Pepsi, etc. on TV may be time valuable enough to companies it far outweighs the revenue raised by fans in seats. Direct corporate sponsorship is an option we now see being explored in the WNBA.

 

[baggerbob]

The 2 games being on TV yesterday was a start, also finally an engaging woman analyst in the studio Sue Bird.

 

[meyers7]

.
One web site said the WNBA is folding, so it must be true!

They can't put it on the internet unless it's true. I know because I read that on the internet.

 

[Icebear]

They can't put it on the internet unless it's true. I know because I read that on the internet.

Plus I heard that on TV and you know they can't put anything on TV that isn't true, too.

 

[jplotinus]

Plus I heard that on TV and you know they can't put anything on TV that isn't true, too.

And, consider, too, the source. The OP source is a sports affiliate of FOX NEWS.

Fox News for crying out loud! The WNBA story is, then, sourced to an agenda driven, propaganda outlet that shamelessly, blatantly and openly espouses an agenda. Staunch defense of the prerogatives of owners and a keen dislike of the economic interests of professional women would, in my opinion, be consistent with the directionality of Fox propaganda.

Asking rhetorically whether the WNBA is closing invites unquestioned acceptance of the owners' no money claims and hampers efforts by players to call attention to the unfairness of their low pay, because it puts them in the position of appearing unmindful of the poor, poor, pitiful, long suffering business owners aka "the suits."

Donald Drapper couldn't have come up with a more cleverly disguised propaganda hit piece.

Sheesh :-/

I think we thwarted Faux Noose this time, though, posters.

Busted, rusted and dusted.

 

[meyers7]

The only somewhat league comparable to the WNBA is the MLS, which both began about the same time. There is more growth potential for the MLS, but it does has to fight similar startup and perception issues. They both have to fight the stigma of being leagues with a second tier quality of play (MLS versus Europe and WNBA versus NBA). They both have complicated relationships with European colleagues where they rely on the European clubs to help subsidize salaries (MLS through exhibition games and selling players, and WNBA through off season jobs), but also have calendar that is in regular logistical conflict with the international calendar that the European clubs are on.

I think it is telling that the minimum MLS salary which the majority of players make close to is still only 32,000. There is a higher range of salaries in the MLS partlyl driven by the need to compete for top players since the players can't play a full European season like WNBA players can. Overall the WNBA salaries aren't that far off from the majority of MLS salaries.

This comparison does have some merit. The MLS salaries do vary quite dramatically though. The minimum is similar. Around $35,000 for MLS and around $38,000 for WNBA. However the MLS average is around $141,000 this year. And Designated Players (DPs such as Donavon, Henry, Keane, used to be Beckham) can be paid much more ($3-4 million) with only a portion being applied to the cap. WNBA team salary cap is $913,000 this year. (according to this site http://www.altiusdirectory.com/Sports/wnba-salaries.php)

However, as Scotter said, MLS does play Mar/Apr through Oct/Nov. While WNBA is a much shorter season. Another difference is the WNBA has most of the worlds best players. MLS does not (really have any - definitely a much lower tier league.)

 

[Phil]

Plus I heard that on TV and you know they can't put anything on TV that isn't true, too.

Plus I heard that on the Boneyard, and you know, they can't say anything on the Boneyard that isn't true. If you've never heard this before, you have now.

 

[pinotbear]

Plus I heard that on the Boneyard, and you know, they can't say anything on the Boneyard that isn't true. If you've never heard this before, you have now.

..so, if I understand this correctly, if I say something on the internet, it's true, and, if I say it on the Boneyard, it's doubly true, and saying it on video makes it triply-true.

Kate Upton has the hots for me.

..time to work on a youtube video of me saying that...then, I just wait for Kate to call!

 

[vtcwbuff]

And, consider, too, the source. The OP source is a sports affiliate of FOX NEWS.

Fox News for crying out loud! The WNBA story is, then, sourced to an agenda driven, propaganda outlet that shamelessly, blatantly and openly espouses an agenda. Staunch defense of the prerogatives of owners and a keen dislike of the economic interests of professional women would, in my opinion, be consistent with the directionality of Fox propaganda.

Asking rhetorically whether the WNBA is closing invites unquestioned acceptance of the owners' no money claims and hampers efforts by players to call attention to the unfairness of their low pay, because it puts them in the position of appearing unmindful of the poor, poor, pitiful, long suffering business owners aka "the suits."

Donald Drapper couldn't have come up with a more cleverly disguised propaganda hit piece.

Sheesh :-/

I think we thwarted Faux Noose this time, though, posters.

Busted, rusted and dusted.

"I think we thwarted Faux Noose this time, though, posters."

Are we reading the same thread? I think that you don't have a clue.

JPLOD - You keep beating the same drum but you have yet to answer the question. Declining attendance (down 6%+ last year), poor TV coverage/viewership, lack of profits (only 3 teams in the black) are all plaguing the league.Where is the money to come from?

 

[meyers7]

Kate Upton has the hots for me.

It could work.

 

[Icebear]

Clearly she favors bears.

 

[vtcwbuff]

Clearly she favors bears.

Yeah, faux bears.

 

[pinotbear]

Yeah, faux bears.

well, sure. Real bears are scruffier, and harder to give piggy-back rides to. Plus, real bears sometimes have garbage-can breath. Faux bears usually don't. We both do suffer from the occasssional bout of donut-breath, however..