Is Lebron the Diana of the NBA?

[Vowelguy]

Lebron dragging his team to NBA finals somewhat reminiscent of Diana's 2003 run.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

That certainly is the narrative Lebron wants to have out there. As prodigous a talent as he is, he constant need to be not just the center of it, but all of it, is both annoying and dreary.

 

[CocoHusky]

No. Lebron is not the GOAT of the NBA.

 

[Orangutan]

Lebron dragging his team to NBA finals somewhat reminiscent of Diana's 2003 run.

LeBron's been doing this for a while. In 06-07 he dragged the Cavs to the finals with the other for starters being Drew Gooden, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Larry Hughes, and Sasha Pavlovic.

(They got swept by a far superior Spurs team, but still).

 

[bballnut90]

Very different players and different results....I don't think Diana is in Lebron's league.

Lebron has made 8 straight finals now and has 3 wins. He's done it with a good and bad supporting casts. It's worth noting the Cavs/Heat have usually played in the weaker conference, so the 8 straight likely isn't accomplished if Cavs were in the west. But it's still 8 straight seasons in the finals with different supporting players and coaches. Lebron has won several MVPs and has always been the clear standout on his team. His teams have always lived and died from his production, and his consistent excellence, especially in the postseason, is unlike anything I've seen in my lifetime. The way he fills up a stat sheet and can seemingly will his team to victory is remarkable.

Diana has played in 3 Finals and has sealed the deal each time, but 3 Final appearances in 13 years just doesn't stack up to what Lebron has accomplished. 1 MVP award for DT, but with the exception of 2014, Phoenix has been about a .500 team ever since Cappie left in 2009 despite having DT/Griner/Taylor for most of that stretch. Their best season besides the 29-5 year was when DT was out in 2015 (they went 20-14), and after that every year they've had a record between 15-19 and 19-15. If you look at UCONN results, I'd say it's more comparable in that she won a title with a star studded cast and won titles with less heralded teammates. But her WNBA career doesn't compare to Lebron's NBA career.

I'd say Maya is a better pro comparison as she's led her team to the finals 6 times in 7 tries so far. Main difference between Maya/Lebron is that Moore has always had a ridiculously good supporting cast and hasn't always been the team's best player. I don't think any women's basketball player is on par with Lebron, but Maya would be the best comparison.

 

[UConnCat]

Diana has played in 3 Finals and has sealed the deal each time, but 3 Final appearances in 13 years just doesn't stack up to what Lebron has accomplished. 1 MVP award for DT, but with the exception of 2014, Phoenix has been about a .500 team ever since Cappie left in 2009 despite having DT/Griner/Taylor for most of that stretch. Their best season besides the 29-5 year was when DT was out in 2015 (they went 20-14), and after that every year they've had a record between 15-19 and 19-15. If you look at UCONN results, I'd say it's more comparable in that she won a title with a star studded cast and won titles with less heralded teammates. But her WNBA career doesn't compare to Lebron's NBA career.

What does Cappie Pondexter have to do with this topic?

 

[Orangutan]

What does Cappie Pondexter have to do with this topic?

Think you are focusing on the wrong part of that sentence. The key being "Phoenix has been about a .500 team since 2009".

 

[bballnut90]

What does Cappie Pondexter have to do with this topic?

She was a huge part in Phoenix's first 2 titles, although it's worth noting that even with her, they were only about a .500 team in 2006 and 2008 and missed out on the playoffs, so her leaving Phoenix isn't that noteworthy. DT's teams by and large have been .500 teams, or they've been able to win it all. Lebron's teams consistently make the Finals or make deep runs into the playoffs.

 

[UConnCat]

She was a huge part in Phoenix's first 2 titles, although it's worth noting that even with her, they were only about a .500 team in 2006 and 2008 and missed out on the playoffs, so her leaving Phoenix isn't that noteworthy. DT's teams by and large have been .500 teams, or they've been able to win it all. Lebron's teams consistently make the Finals or make deep runs into the playoffs.

Got it. It's always that when it comes to Phoenix's first two titles. It's the Cappie canard. We hear it over and over again. Diana would not have won those two championships without Cappie. It's always said in a way to diminish Diana's accomplishments. It's like an asterisk next to her championship. *But Cappie Pondester was on the team. Diana has won a championship without Cappie and Cappie hasn't won one since leaving Phoenix. Maybe she'll win another this year as a bench player for the Sparks.

WNBA championships are hard to win as Parker can attest.

 

[UConnCat]

Think you are focusing on the wrong part of that sentence. The key being "Phoenix has been about a .500 team since 2009".

I focused on the part of the sentence I intended to focus on.

 

[stwainfan]

Case closed.

 

[Orangutan]

I focused on the part of the sentence I intended to focus on.

No one said you didn't.

I just thought you missed the larger point. But it seems you had something to get off your chest about Cappie.

 

[UConnCat]

I'm sure you did. And I think your focus is misplaced. But you've now made it clear that Cappie is a sore spot for you.

It's not and she's not. There's a history on this topic.

 

[Orangutan]

There's a history on this topic.

I'm glad that I was unaware because I can only imagine the bickering on this point was exceptionally stupid.

 

[UConnCat]

I'm glad to have missed the great Cappie & Diana wars.

I missed them too, I guess. Different and unrelated history.

 

[Orangutan]

Heck, they invented, and condoned, tanking as a means to get a better draft pick.

Diana just perfected it.

 

[UConnCat]

I'm glad that I was unaware because I can only imagine the bickering on this point was exceptionally stupid.

Wow. For someone who was unaware you've certainly had a lot to say. There was no bickering.

 

[eebmg]

Great job proving the wisdom of Geno (and countless others) that MBB and WBB should never be compared either at a team level or individual level.

 

[Orangutan]

Wow. For someone who was unaware you've certainly had a lot to say. There was no bickering.

Twice as much to say than I intend because you catch my posts before I can edit them.

I don't know. I'm lost. You wrote of hearing the "Cappie canard" "over and over". I assumed this was in reference to message board discussions. Mea culpa.

 

[bballnut90]

Got it. It's always that when it comes to Phoenix's first two titles. It's the Cappie canard. We hear it over and over again. Diana would not have won those two championships without Cappie. It's always said in a way to diminish Diana's accomplishments. It's like an asterisk next to her championship. *But Cappie Pondester was on the team. Diana has won a championship without Cappie and Cappie hasn't won one since leaving Phoenix. Maybe she'll win another this year as a bench player for the Sparks.

WNBA championships are hard to win as Parker can attest.

Really? I've heard quite little mention of those titles having asterisks. Candace wouldn't have won without Nneka in 2016. Maya likely doesn't have any without Whalen/Augustus/Brunson. I also retracted my statement about Cappie, since they were a .500 team for 2 of the years with Cappie and won the other 2. Somewhat goes hand in hand with Phoenix's results after Cappie left too in that they've been a .500 franchise besides the 3 years when they've won it all. I don't think there's any asterisk next to any of Diana's titles, but it's worth noting that when she has won, she's had incredibly talented teammates on her roster. Cappie averaged 20ppg and was one of the best in the world at that time, Griner was 1st team All-W in 2014 and is the most imposing center in the world, and Taylor was there for all 3 and was one of the best in the world for the first 2). You really have to have an extremely talented roster to win a title in the W. Houston had their Big 3, LA had Leslie/Milton/Teasley/Dixon, Detroit was loaded with Smith/Nolan/Ford/Cash during their run, etc. The only team I can think of that really had one marquee standout who really carried them was Indiana winning 2012 led by Catchings.

When comparing Diana to Lebron, he has been able to overcome some crazy obstacles to get to the finals. His team is always there at the end of the season regardless of the roster make up. Diana's teams haven't been. Aside from the three championship seasons, her teams have been around .500 or doesn't make the playoffs. I also think if you ask any common NBA fan who the best player has been the last 5-10 years, you'd universally get an answer of, "Lebron." If you ask a common WNBA fan the same question, you're going to get more responses besides just Diana. That's why I don't think the comparison is accurate when looking at their pro careers.

 

[UConnCat]

Really? I've heard quite little mention of those titles having asterisks. Candace wouldn't have won without Nneka in 2016. Maya likely doesn't have any without Whalen/Augustus/Brunson. I also retracted my statement about Cappie, since they were a .500 team for 2 of the years with Cappie and won the other 2. Somewhat goes hand in hand with Phoenix's results after Cappie left too in that they've been a .500 franchise besides the 3 years when they've won it all. I don't think there's any asterisk next to any of Diana's titles, but it's worth noting that when she has won, she's had incredibly talented teammates on her roster. Cappie averaged 20ppg and was one of the best in the world at that time, Griner was 1st team All-W in 2014 and is the most imposing center in the world, and Taylor was there for all 3 and was one of the best in the world for the first 2). You really have to have an extremely talented roster to win a title in the W. Houston had their Big 3, LA had Leslie/Milton/Teasley/Dixon, Detroit was loaded with Smith/Nolan/Ford/Cash during their run, etc. The only team I can think of that really had one marquee standout who really carried them was Indiana winning 2012 led by Catchings.

It was (and likely still is) very common among Tennessee fans to say the "yeah but Cappie" whenever Diana's first two championships are mentioned. It's often been subtle, but it's always there. It has been said in a way so as not to give Diana full credit for those championships. Of course, there's probably no UConn player hated more by Tennessee fans than Diana and I guess we can thank her remarkable success against the LadyVols for that. The "yeah but" has not been mentioned to the same extent when talking about Maya or other great players who've won championships. When talking about Maya you rarely read "yeah but Sylvia."

Championship teams have great players who play great and receive great coaching. If the coaching is bad or the chemistry is bad then the results are likely to be mediocre. This is particularly true in the WNBA where the compact season does not allow a team the opportunity to overcome or correct those flaws.

 

[bballnut90]

Case closed.

You could make a very similar video pulling random statistics that bode in Lebron's favor too. I don't think there's anything cut and dry about the debate...different players and different arguments for each one. Choosing one over the other comes down to what accomplishments you value more, or just who you like more. .

 

[Fairfield Fan]

Maya is the Michael Jordan of women's basketball. To my mind Michael was the all-time best.

 

[bballnut90]

It was (and likely still is) very common among Tennessee fans to say the "yeah but Cappie" whenever Diana's first two championships are mentioned. It's often been subtle, but it's always there. It has been said in a way so as not to give Diana full credit for those championships. Of course, there's probably no UConn player hated more by Tennessee fans than Diana and I guess we can thank her remarkable success against the LadyVols for that. The "yeah but" has not been mentioned to the same extent when talking about Maya or other great players who've won championships. When talking about Maya you rarely read "yeah but Sylvia."

Championship teams have great players who play great and receive great coaching. If the coaching is bad or the chemistry is bad then the results are likely to be mediocre. This is particularly true in the WNBA where the compact season does not allow a team the opportunity to overcome or correct those flaws.

Guess I'll keep my eyes peeled for it--I haven't noticed it. I think there is merit in mentioning her contributions, she was immensely important in both title runs. She won the Finals MVP in 2007 and arguably should've won Finals MVP again in 2009. After she left, Phoenix wasn't very good for the next 4 seasons and really hasn't been very good with the exception being 2014. No question they don't win in 2007 or 2009 without Cappie, but they don't win with Diana either. It's a team accomplishment. Both players have titles to their credit without asterisks. Anyone can make a case for or against any player though. Parker won a title in 2016 but she had the league MVP on her roster. Same with Maya in 2017 and Cynthia Cooper in 2000. I think if you win a title, you win a title and it's forever yours.

 

[Vowelguy]

Wow, I am impressed that a very light-hearted joke has turned into this thread. It's just lacking a @triaddukefan meme (or is it .gif, I get those confused) to make it complete.

Settle down my children. So often women athletes are compared to men. I was just enjoying a fun opportunity to do the reverse, not entirely seriously. And while DT '03 likely did have a stronger supporting cast than LBJ '18, when you look at what that team did (or more appropriately didn't do) after Diana left, her accomplishment is even more spectacular.