Is it that some schools don't care about women's BB ? warning NASTY

[Harry Mangurian]

I don't understand why some schools keep high priced coaches that either have passed their peak or just clearly under-perform given their talent. Two that come to mind are Duke & Rutgers. I think recruiting top players at Duke is a cinch (just as with the men). IMO coach M. (about $800k plus ?) has her talent perform below capability consistently.
I don't expect her to beat this year's UCONN team, but a second round KO? I didn't think her complaint about being in the UCONN region was about the second game. (??) CViv ($1M salary plus ?) recruits well but has always failed to improve players and can only coach defense and yet she gets a new contract extension.
Final fours:
Rutgers 2000, 2007 no NCs
Duke 1999, 2002, 2003, 2006 no NCs

There are other examples I could name.
If/when Geno reaches a point like this, UCONN will not have to ask him to retire. He will leave on his own.

Now that I have stirred the pot, I am going to hide. Let the tirades begin.

(p.s. I will have to eat humble pie if UCONN gets knocked off tomorrow )

p.s. "Rutgers women’s basketball coach C. Vivian Stringer earned the university’s top grossing salary at $963,216 in part because her contract stipulates that her annual base salary is no less than that of the Scarlet Knights head football coach."

 

[UConnChapette]

Only cowards hit and run. Stay put, and take your lumps!

There are only a handful of coaches who can get the absolute most out of the talent they have, whether it is McDonalds AA or a player from the middle of the recruiting rankings. Who could do a better job at Rutgers, or Duke, or any of the other "close but no cigar" programs? When Geno retires the playing field will be a bit more level. I, for one, hope he keeps coaching for years to come. All good things come to an end, so I will enjoy the ride for as long as it lasts.

 

[Wbbfan1]

Duke tonight had a bad match up and I contribute it to their loss. Depaul is a smaller team that basically has a four guard lineup. Add Chelsea Gray and Alexis Jones to their roster and they probably easily handle DePaul. Without their best guards in the lineup, IMHO Depaul was the better team and tonight's game proved it. It was a tough season for Duke.

 

[DavidK]

Only cowards hit and run. Stay put, and take your lumps!

There are only a handful of coaches who can get the absolute most out of the talent they have, whether it is McDonalds AA or a player from the middle of the recruiting rankings. Who could do a better job at Rutgers, or Duke, or any of the other "close but no cigar" programs? When Geno retires the playing field will be a bit more level. I, for one, hope he keeps coaching for years to come. All good things come to an end, so I will enjoy the ride for as long as it lasts.

I mean I know this is a whole different topic and wont happen for awhile, i see a drop off after Geno but still the national powerhouse. Just like Ollie coaching the men, the Name UCONN means alot even after the Hall of Fame coach moves on.

 

[Replicant]

I don't understand why some schools keep high priced coaches that either have passed their peak or just clearly under-perform given their talent. Two that come to mind are Duke & Rutgers.

I'd put Landers (GA) and Balcomb (Vandy) in that group.

 

[mudcat]

I'd put Landers (GA) and Balcomb (Vandy) in that group.

I actually think Melanie Balcomb is a good coach (and she's without the second part of the description, the really high salary). Her problem is more that she doesn't recruit well. I can't remember the last time she had a recruit in the top 20 (and for some reason she has never been able to recruit a good big), so her teams also struggle in the rebounding area.

 

[tomcat]

I wouldn't include Balcomb, but I think Landers is definitely past his prime. He can coach a team into the tournament and then they're on their own.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

I posted this in the Andy Landers thread but it also works here! I don't believe Balcomb deserves to join this group!
Andy Landers joins some famous coaches that are good recruiters but lousy game coaches! He still gets some good athletes but can't coach his way out of a paper bag! Others, Sylvia Hatchell, Jim Foster, Gail Goestenkors, Brenda Friese, C. Vivian Stringer, Holly Warlick is quickly joining this group, Nell Fortner, all have great name recognition but no talent with the x's & o's to back it up!
J. P. McCallie might be joining the above group!
Friese won a nat'l title with Jeff Walz on her staff! Hatchell won her title with Sylvia Crawley hitting a 3 vs GA with one sec. on the clock!

 

[AnotherVolFan]

Yea in only her 2nd year....Holly is o so quickly joining those ranks....give me a break....most definitely agree about the others tho!

 

[UcMiami]

It is an interesting question.
Jim Foster got a lot of grief at Ohio State and probably deservedly so for not going as far as he should in the post season, but he goes to Chattanooga and puts up a 29 - 2 season going 18-0 in conference and plays Syracuse pretty tough in the first round in a 6/11 game. He was taking over a good team (with good coaching) but certainly didn't embarrass himself. And you look at the Ohio State years and while he had good teams and good talent, they were never great teams and the talent was generally flawed as has been shown at the next level.

I do agree that there are a number of coaches that get paid big bucks for mediocre results but I think a lot of that has to do with the economics/realities of women's sports. Uconn is one of the few programs where a women's team really drives a decent percentage of both alumni and general giving. At most schools what the women's teams bring in is a pittance compared to men's basketball/football. So having a good team is great, especially one that doesn't embarrass and raises the general academic standards of athletics. But the drive to win championships is just not that important to the AD as it really isn't a driver of increased revenue. On the other hand, ADs and school administrations are very conscious of PR in terms of not shafting women's sports - title IX made sure they take this seriously and it doesn't hurt in that regard to be able to point to both a 'famous' and a well paid women's coach and say ... see we take this seriously. The difference between a $500K and $1M salary is not a big deal when dealing with a BCS athletic department budget. That represents less than 5% of the WCBB program budget and probably less than 0.5% of your total budget. So you get nice publicity, a good defense for the seriousness with which you treat women's sports, and no down side on revenue because they don't win NCs or League titles.
To some degree that is changing. Foster being fired is a sign of that, GG being fired at Texas, the questions and focus on CViv and her contract at Rutgers - all signs that WCBB is being viewed a little differently. Uconn with its TV revenue stream and with the effect on the University's public image is an example to other institutions that there can actually be hidden gold in a high profile and very successful program. And ... while the money seems to flow into college sports, it is not limitless and some very high profile athletic departments have shown that mismanagement and incompetence can lead to staggering financial losses. Budgets everywhere are being reviewed and ADs are not immune.

 

[sarals24]

But the most important question...did you mean "Nasty" like MoJett's pass...?

 

[southie]

Friese won a nat'l title with Jeff Walz on her staff! Hatchell won her title with Sylvia Crawley hitting a 3 vs GA with one sec. on the clock!

I think it was Charlotte Smith who hit the 3-pointer and beat Louisiana Tech.

 

[DobbsRover2]

But the most important question...did you mean "Nasty" like MoJett's pass...?

Let's not escalate things here. Low-level nastiness is just fine, thank you.

But just imagine if Geno had hiked off to some men's program instead of UConn back in the mid-80s and that UConn had never won all those NCs. Other than the fact that few of us would be posting here, if some of those NCs were up for grabs (okay, Pat would have grabbed some of them) and some of these coaches had an NC or at least an NC appearance tucked away, would it change the views on them? Other than Freese with the notion that Walz did much of the good work at MD, I can't think of a coach whose otherwise lack of top success has been elevated a bit by the NC, as Gary Blair has generally had a good rep. Kim, Muffet and Tara have certainly had great moments and need no defending as top tier coaches. But being stifled for the top honor by mainly two coaches' programs in the last twenty years has likely affected our view of the abilities of the second tier coaches.

 

[Icebear]

The vast majority of the schools do NOT care about WCBB more than a modicum amount.

 

[UcMiami]

Let's not escalate things here. Low-level nastiness is just fine, thank you.

But just imagine if Geno had hiked off to some men's program instead of UConn back in the mid-80s and that UConn had never won all those NCs. Other than the fact that few of us would be posting here, if some of those NCs were up for grabs (okay, Pat would have grabbed some of them) and some of these coaches had an NC or at least an NC appearance tucked away, would it change the views on them? Other than Freese with the notion that Walz did much of the good work at MD, I can't think of a coach whose otherwise lack of top success has been elevated a bit by the NC, as Gary Blair has generally had a good rep. Kim, Muffet and Tara have certainly had great moments and need no defending as top tier coaches. But being stifled for the top honor by mainly two coaches' programs in the last twenty years has likely affected our view of the abilities of the second tier coaches.

I think the issue is not necessarily NCs but performing up to talent levels - an NC can be a crap shoot, depending on the quality of the other teams in a given year and having a few good breaks, but if you have a stock of good players and consistently underperform that is a bad sign. People generally respect Doug at Depaul because his teams play up to their talent level even though he has never gotten to a FF. Muffett hasn't had an NC in a decade, but she has gotten to the FF consistently and that has improved her reputation. On the other side, Landers has had talent and bowed out early consistently, JPM same story.

 

[pinotbear]

But the most important question...did you mean "Nasty" like MoJett's pass...?

naw, I was thinkin' "filthy" ...

 

[geordi]

Both might well have more National Championships if UConn didn't happen to be in most of the final fours over the past 15 years.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

As to CVS - and I have said similar on the RU board - she has performed at Rutgers consistent with her performance before Rutgers. So, with fluctuations here and there, she has basically performed up to expectations - if you don't include the expectation that when you give someone a million dollar salary, more is expected. And perhaps more would have been accomplished if not for the disastrous post Imus recruiting class.

When Vivian and the team are on the same page, I think she gives her teams a fighting chance to win. Her defensive strategy keeps it close and it goes from there. This year's team is more offensive minded than in the past and I would think RU should do quite well next year, against a much tougher schedule than the deliberately weak one this year.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Actually I can think of someone whose reputation got hyped way out of proportion by an NC in 1999, but she hasn't coached in a long time. If ever there was a team that won it all on sheer guts with only middling help from the coach, it was Peck's Purdue team. But it has gotten her that glowing tribute every times she's introduced on ESPN for many years.

 

[bbsamjj]

CVS's last contract was negotiated right after the National Championship run/Imus incident, when her stock was sky high. I expect her new contract to be heavy results driven.

 

[choochoo]

Yea in only her 2nd year....Holly is o so quickly joining those ranks....give me a break....most definitely agree about the others tho!

Give it a few year you will get use to the losing with all that talent. Holly is happy any time you win no matter how you play. We beat an unranked team by 7 on our home floor. I though we played well. Only the great teams will be in Nashville, if you get there be prepared to get spanked!

 

[choochoo]

You have 8 High school AA on your team and you struggle in the round of 32 and are happy! good luck with that. Maybe you need to go and watch all the NC spanking UConn has put down on your team 8 and 0 in the National Championship game!

 

[VAUConnFan]

You have 8 High school AA on your team and you struggle in the round of 32 and are happy! good luck with that. Maybe you need to go and watch all the NC spanking UConn has put down on your team 8 and 0 in the National Championship game!

Survive and advance. Just think of Michigan in 1993; Barely survived UCLA in the round of 32, did not play particular well against George Washington and Temple, then beat the hottest team in the tournament when they took out Kentucky.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

southie- -I think you're right! MY BAD!!!!

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

KnightBridgeAZ- - JEWELL OF THE EAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CVS is WAY overrated!

 

[reno tony]

I posted this in the Andy Landers thread but it also works here! I don't believe Balcomb deserves to join this group!
Andy Landers joins some famous coaches that are good recruiters but lousy game coaches! He still gets some good athletes but can't coach his way out of a paper bag! Others, Sylvia Hatchell, Jim Foster, Gail Goestenkors, Brenda Friese, C. Vivian Stringer, Holly Warlick is quickly joining this group, Nell Fortner, all have great name recognition but no talent with the x's & o's to back it up!
J. P. McCallie might be joining the above group!
Friese won a nat'l title with Jeff Walz on her staff! Hatchell won her title with Sylvia Crawley hitting a 3 vs GA with one sec. on the clock!

I am not sure why Warlick belongs amongst these other coaches. This is only her second year and she has them as a 1 seed and hopefully they get a chance to play N.D. in the FF. She has some tremendous size shoes to fill, as Geno's replacement will have, but at least give her time to establish her success or failure.

4 TO GO​

 

[reno tony]

Both might well have more National Championships if UConn didn't happen to be in most of the final fours over the past 15 years.

So Geno is to blame?

49 TO GO​

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

reno tony- - All you have to do is watch Holly on the sidelines & her team running around like a fire-drill to realize that Lady Vols BB no longer exists! It ended when Pat Summitt got sick! It makes no sense for a talented WBB player to choose TN anymore! Not with Coaching at Stanford, ND, UCONN, PSU, SoCar., L'ville, Tx AM, OKLA, KY, TheOhioSt., et al!

 

[ScarlettB]

KnightBridgeAZ- - JEWELL OF THE EAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CVS is WAY overrated!

Vivian has taken 3 programs to the Final Four and was the first coach - women or men to do so. Pitino and Calipari have now done it on the mens side. She is not overrated. Many of y'all just hate her. Geno and Pat have dominated the National Championships for years. I agree with the poster who said if they weren't around, there would be more coaches with the title.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

ScarlettB- - The first 2 times to FF were when there wasn't this much parity or good teams around! Who cares if she was the 1st female/male coach to take 3 teams to the FF! She has NO titles and will never get a title! Jim Foster has taken 4 teams to the NCAA Tournament and he's in the same group of over-rated coaches! Check her track record of recruiting good players and their not improving in 4 years at THE RAC! She came into the Big East with all this bravado and cockiness and failed to produce more than 1 tournament and 1 regular season champion in her 10+ years at Rutgers! She joins the horde of coaches I mentioned above, great recruiters LOUSY game coaches! She is over-rated! She does coach great trash talking and dirty play though, I have to admit!
That's a stupid statement, "If Geno & Pat weren't around there would be more coaches with the title!" THEY WERE/ARE AROUND and showed the WCBB world how to build winning teams over many years!
You're dueling with an empty gun if you're trying to make CVS out to be more than a mediocre coach! I can't believe with CVS contract up, Rutgers leaving for the BIG 10 and her comments in Oct. that the other coaches at Rutgers should come to her practices and games and learn how to coach so they're teams wouldn't stink! (paraphrasing her quote!)