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Is coaching overrated?

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junglehusky

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The head coach has a huge effect on recruiting.
He designs the offense and the defense.
He sets the practice schedule.
He decides what things will be emphasized in practice.
He picks the starters.
He decides the substitution pattern.
He creates and implements the game plan.
He makes all the critical calls on game day.

So, yes, the question this thread poses is dopey.
If anything, by listing 7 other things that the coach does other than play calling, it makes the point of the OP - which, despite the title, is not that "coaching" is overrated, but specifically "play calling" is. Play calling is one aspect of all the other things that a coach does to make a successful football program... By no means am I an expert, but IMHO fans and media tend to get hung up on individual play calls, like the Seahawks goal line play calling, and coaches are (hopefully) more focused on finding patterns over the course of a drive, quarter, game. Of course, good coaches can do their job better when they have a deeper / more talented roster, and good or bad coaches can still be prone to brain farts that can cause a team to lose.
 

Dooley

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I'm a Redskin fan and obviously biased but I always thought that Joe Gibbs was the greatest coach of my lifetime. Won 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QB's (none of whom are HOF'ers).

Joe Theismann
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien

That is unheard of.

That really was impressive...particularly Doug Williams. If my memory serves me correctly, Williams did not do much before or after that playoff run. Both he and Rypien dismantled completely overmatched AFC teams for their wins.

I think Theismann could have been a HOF if he didn't get hurt.

The 'Skins had some great teams back then, but yeah, Gibbs is one of the best. One of my favorite Super Bowl memories as a kid was John Riggins' jersey tearing run. Iconic Super Bowl moment.
 
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Coaching and playcalling definitely matter.

Playcalling is a tactical issue. The gameplan is the strategy. Even if you have a bad strategy, then sound playcalling that capitalizes on your team's strength and the opponent's weakness at the right point in time can overcome bad strategy.

Conversely, if you have a great strategy, but you are not calling plays well, you can't manage to get the right players on the field, and you can't even manage the clock with timeouts then your strategy will fail due to poor execution.

Players execute on the field. Coaches are supposed to set the players up for success on the field by having the right combinations of players on the field at the right time and employing them effectively through play calling. What coaches can do is set favorable conditions for success. They can also set unfavorable conditions. When you are rotating QBS throughout a game, and the line has to react to two different cadence's, you are possibly setting yourself up for a bunch of false starts.

Wehn you're subbing in lots and lots of players then you have set environment where you might have the wrong players on the field.

When your best WR is standing on the sideline when you need a TD or 1st down on 3rd and forever or 4th and long, then, perhaps you could say that you are not putting your team in the best position to succeed.
 
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Sounds to me like the game planning worked despite Irvin's show boating - Aikman went away from the double on Irvin and got a single-covered Harper for a big play. To me, scripting is starting off a game with 10 (or so) pre-called plays to evaluate how the defense responds. That being said maybe we're just having a semantics difference.



I was writing from memory last night. The actual play is at 1:53:30 or so of this video. Listen to John Madden go on and on about Norv Turner's brilliance in play calling afterward - it's quite funny when you know what actually happened. Turner is standing up in the booth because he probably has no idea why Harper has the ball on the play he called. I was wrong on the specific of my memory, San Fran reacted to the different personnel alignment in the same formation with Irvin and Harper switched, with a safety blitz coming from Aikman's left side (which normally would have been Irvin's side), which was a deviation from the SF defensive game plan. Blitz should not have come from that side on that play call formation regardless of who was running the route, the SF defensive game plan called for a safety blitz on a different offensive play calling formation with the WR's lined up as they were. They failed to recognize that Irvin and Harper had simply switched spots in the same offensive play call formation, and by blitzing the safety from that side, they left Irvin's normal route on the play call in single coverage on a slant and go. WR gets leverage on running his route, and the ball comes properly and it's off to races, which is exactly what happened. Bill Romanowski was a defensive leader for that San Fran team.

Aikman read the safety blitz properly, and jumped all over it, thinking it was a mistake by the defense (which it was) and knowing that the route would be open, and fired the ball very fast after the snap to what should have been Irvin's route on the quick slant which was open with the safety up in blitz as I just noted. Harper catches the ball on a great accurate throw, and exploits what was actually a breakdown of the defense game plan.

Had Irvin not made the unpredictable switch to the right side of the formation coming out of the huddle, Harper lines up out on the normal right side of the formation, and SF players play their D, and Aikman goes to Harper on a quick hook, San Francisco doesn't blitz and stays within their game plan, and it's 2nd down and 6 or 7 to go, with almost no time off the clock at the 24 yard line. What's the next play call there?

The interesting thing about it all, other than the irony of it all, is that running the ball there, in that game situation, clock situation with a 4 point lead, Emmitt Smith and Cowboys offensive line of the early 90s and a 4 point lead with 4 minutes to go. But that wasn't the game plan, to run on first down against the D that was stacked to stop it, and that's not what the head coach wanted to do (play it safe like that) and they stuck with their game plan on first down and 10 to go to get to the sticks, and made a game changing and history making play - because the players themselves changed up the personnel alignment.

The entire situation is like the proverbial story of the guy everybody knows that was in a terrible car wreck, and only lived because he was NOT wearing a seat belt. It's not good practice for players to be switching things up on their own on the field, just like it isn't good to go driving without a seat belt. I just thought of it as a great example of what really matters in coaching.

It wasn't the play call, it was that the Dallas players knew everything about their offense inside out, knew their scouting of the opponent and what to do, and they were fundamentally sound in executing the blocking, route running, ball exchange and throw and catch. That's where the coaching matters.

I hope this has been interesting. It is for me!!! :)
 
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Coaching and playcalling definitely matter.

Playcalling is a tactical issue. The gameplan is the strategy. Even if you have a bad strategy, then sound playcalling that capitalizes on your team's strength and the opponent's weakness at the right point in time can overcome bad strategy.

Conversely, if you have a great strategy, but you are not calling plays well, you can't manage to get the right players on the field, and you can't even manage the clock with timeouts then your strategy will fail due to poor execution.

Players execute on the field. Coaches are supposed to set the players up for success on the field by having the right combinations of players on the field at the right time and employing them effectively through play calling. What coaches can do is set favorable conditions for success. They can also set unfavorable conditions. When you are rotating QBS throughout a game, and the line has to react to two different cadence's, you are possibly setting yourself up for a bunch of false starts.

Wehn you're subbing in lots and lots of players then you have set environment where you might have the wrong players on the field.

When your best WR is standing on the sideline when you need a TD or 1st down on 3rd and forever or 4th and long, then, perhaps you could say that you are not putting your team in the best position to succeed.

I think it's important that a coach - any coach, in any sport at any level, have the following thought in mind always:

"The players deserve a chance to win, and it's your responsibility to give it to them."
 

Bonehead

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I think it's important that a coach - any coach, in any sport at any level, have the following thought in mind always:

"The players deserve a chance to win, and it's your responsibility to give it to them."

Even in the Pre-season/Spring Training/Exhibition games?
 

nelsonmuntz

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Most coaching occurs in practice. Once the game starts, I think the coaches ability to positively impact the outcome is reduced, although not eliminated. I think Rick Barnes is one of the smartest play callers in college basketball but I don't think he is a great coach. In the last 2 minutes of the game, he is as good as anyone, and has outcoached both Calhoun and Ollie on occasions to win games. I would never trade Barnes for either of those two. Barnes "over coaches" players during games rather than letting them dictate the game, and he is not half the player development coach that either Calhoun or it appears Ollie are. That is why Barnes has 1 Final Four, 12 years ago, in all that time at major programs.

I don't think Calhoun was a great game coach, but he may be the best player development coach in college history. I don't think Izzo is even a good recruiter, but he manages a game and coaches his players up as well as anyone in the last 20 years. Dixon, JT III and Few are as good at X's and O's as anyone (I love all 3 offenses), but they are three of the biggest chokers in big games that I have ever seen.

Coaches have all kinds of styles, and a lot of them seem to work. I loved Temple's matchup zone defense, but I thought Cheney's teams played too conservative on offense which is why a team with McKie and Eddie Jones didn't make the Final Four. For 20 years, Gene Keady somehow taught the slowest, least athletic team in the Big 10 how to press and won a slew of Big 10 titles along the way despite his complete inability to recruit anyone with talent other than Glenn Robinson.
 
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Every coach mentioned in this thread was not so great at every stage of his career. Jimmy Johnson with Dolphins or Okie State? Belichek w/Browns? Lombardi with Redskins? Petrino with Celtics? Joe Gibbs 2.0? Coaching is not overrated, but even the very best of them need to be surrounded with the pieces to succeed.
 
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Belichick did actually take the Browns to the playoffs, his failure there was in PR and ownership relations - not football related. Jimmy Johnson in Miami was successful - had to look it up just to make sure, but three straight seasons going to the playoffs 36-28 overall. He was also 29-25 at Ok State with a 1-1 record in bowl games. Joe Gibbs took the Skins back tot eh playoffs in 2 of 4 years after his return to the game. If you're measuring success by super bowl championships, that's a pretty high standard. Lombardi was 7-5 in one season in Washington. Winning record.

I'm not disagreeing with the concept that you need players - I've written that. You need players that are physically capable of playing with the level of competition on your schedule. That's a given. After that - it most definitely is coaching.
 
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I'm a Redskin fan and obviously biased but I always thought that Joe Gibbs was the greatest coach of my lifetime. Won 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QB's (none of whom are HOF'ers).

Joe Theismann
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien

That is unheard of.
He had the HOGS...Timmy Smith (who?) was super Bowl MVP..Hogs. Skins fan here too
 
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Belichick did actually take the Browns to the playoffs, his failure there was in PR and ownership relations - not football related. Jimmy Johnson in Miami was successful - had to look it up just to make sure, but three straight seasons going to the playoffs 36-28 overall. He was also 29-25 at Ok State with a 1-1 record in bowl games. Joe Gibbs took the Skins back tot eh playoffs in 2 of 4 years after his return to the game. If you're measuring success by super bowl championships, that's a pretty high standard. Lombardi was 7-5 in one season in Washington. Winning record.

I'm not disagreeing with the concept that you need players - I've written that. You need players that are physically capable of playing with the level of competition on your schedule. That's a given. After that - it most definitely is coaching.
Those are GOOD records, not great. 1/3 of teams make playoffs, so getting in to top third is good, not great.
 

RedStickHusky

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Jim Lee Howell coached the Giants from '54-'60; Tom Landry had his defense and Vince Lombardi ran his offense. He was a great coach... used to read the papers during practice :)
 

RedStickHusky

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Specifically to Carl's point, when a coach says we're breaking it down and starting over, I would assume that to mean a heavy emphasis on position coaching and technique. No point in learning assignments for a 3000 play playbook when your athletes haven't mastered the skills required to execute. I totally agree with Carl that that is often what we've looked like over the last couple of years -- a team that knew what was supposed to happen but couldn't quite make it so, especially on the o-line.
 

CL82

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Is coaching overrated?

7612466-e1377831328840.jpg


No.
 
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Great coaches recognize unseen talent.

Great coaches build a vision for their team.

Great coaches recognize their own shortcomings and bring in people to compensate for their own weaknesses.

Great coaches adjust to poor performance and elicit improved effort from their players who have underperformed.

Great coaches recognize great coaching from their peers.

None of this happens overnight. But it does happen. The jury is out.
 
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Medic I think you can use DeLeone's job as OL coach/OC as a complete opposite of this...especially after he was gone and Foley tried to reconstruct the pieces.

Was going to add this to Whaler's comment that "play calling is over rated" in the New OC Frank Verducci thread but didn't want too spin that thread to far off track...

I remember reading this a few years ago ...http://smartfootball.com/grab-bag/is-coaching-overrated#sthash.bQC7fRlb.zZE2xWtV.dpbs

>>In the cult of football, surely few things are more overrated than play calling. Much football commentary, from high school stands to the NFL in prime time, boils down to: “If they ran they should have passed, and if they passed they should have run.” Other commentary boils down to: “If it worked, it was a good call, if it failed, it was a bad call,” though the call is only one of many factors in a football play. Good calls are better than bad calls — this column exerts considerable effort documenting the difference. But it’s nonsensical to think that replacing a guy who calls a lot of runs to the left with a guy who calls a lot of runs to the right will transform a team.<<

>>One factor here is the Illusion of Coaching. We want to believe that coaches are super-ultra-masterminds in control of events, and coaches do not mind encouraging that belief. But coaching is a secondary force in sports; the athletes themselves are always more important. TMQ’s immutable Law of 10 Percent holds that good coaching can improve a team by 10 percent, bad coaching can subtract from performance by 10 percent — but the rest will always be on the players themselves, their athletic ability and level of devotion, plus luck. If the players are no good or out of sync, it won’t matter what plays are called; if the players are talented and dedicated, they will succeed no matter what the sideline signals in. Unless they have bad luck, which no one can control<<

I also subscribe to the fact that as a program - we have surely had some bad luck of late.
 
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