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Message: [QUOTE="Northbound, post: 2266529, member: 155"] TL:DR - Nah you don't drive more than me and unless you travel a ton in the north country in the Winter you don't travel in worse conditions than I do - and nobody really cares about my driving habits but I'll tell you about them anyway. Hudson Valley, that's not upstate. I live north and west of Albany and that's not even upstate. I travel often to upstate - think Massena, Malone, Ogdensburg, Gouverneur, Canton, Pulaski and then onto Eastern Canada - many times my commute is 4+ hours each way and I usually do it in a 1970's Toyota Land Cruiser - winter or summer. When someone say they have to travel 2 hours south to Syracuse, then they are upstate. The folks I work with upstate laugh when I say I'm from upstate and they always make sure to say "uh, not really" so I've now adopted their beliefs. If you drive 40K a year, you drive a lot, but you don't drive more than me. We easily do 600 miles plus a weekend - be it to the ADK's or out to the cape. It's a 40+ minute roundtrip with not traffic or lights for me to get groceries - but whatever, nobody cares about my commute or my daily travels. I have a friend who is an attorney that puts 25K on his Yukon XL every 3 months. 4WD is very useful, but only in the hands of folks that understand it. It's as much the stop as it is the go in the winter and 4WD doesn't increase the stopping power. A capable 2WD car in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing is infinitely better than a 4WD vehicle in the hands of someone that is clueless. In that scenario what 4WD will do is make things worse for the driver because they don't understand what 4WD really does which leads to a false sense of confidence and they over drive their ability and regardless of winter of summer once that happens it's bad news. There are a myriad of 4WD/AWD systems - read this for a primer - [URL]http://oppositelock.kinja.com/a-4-wd-what-is-awd-4wd-and-how-does-it-work-1650386909/1650531656[/URL] - it's a good basic outline of how these systems work. For example, I have more than a few Toyota FJ40's and some of have open differentials and others have locked diffs and there's a enormous difference in just that, never mind tire type for terrain, etc. If I had a choice of car for the snow, car mind you, it would be a Volvo V70R, Mitsu Evo, or a Quattro on Hakapiliita's - i will tell you my '05 Land Cruiser with a center locking diff and duratracs is pretty darn good in the snow and I measure that by control and stopping not going, unless it's up my unplowed and unpaved driveway. I do happen to like my Toyota FJ40 with studded snows or my Toyota FJ45 with BFG AT's and chains in the bed just in case - however that is not a practical option for most folks. The converse of that is a Toyota FJ40 with BFG MT's in the snow and an engine that is 2.5 times the horsepower that originally came with the vehicle - let me tell you that you are fully and I mean fully engaged in the driving experience - I had a trip back from Ottawa and one back from State College in snow storms at night last winter there was zero room for error. it's exhausting and no fun because you always know you're driving the car and there's no electronic bailout (i.e. traction control) and if you make a mistake there are no airbags, just flimsy doors and a lap belt. I grew up in snow, but I would recommend that anyone doing a lot of snow driving make the investment and do the Bridgestone Winter Driving School in Steamboat and if you have kids sign them up for the Team Safety Driving School or it's equivalent in your area. [/QUOTE]

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