how does recruitment work?

[bags27]

A question for you experienced folks:

In another thread here, high school sophomore Charli Collier is mentioned. So, I looked her up on ESPN, and there says:
April 11, 2015: Collier, who originally committed to Texas, decided to reopen her recruitment.

So, does this mean that a 9th grader had already committed to a college? How do they let someone so young make such a declaration? I thought the NCAA protected very young kids from recruiting pressure. Guess that shows my age!

 

[pinotbear]

A question for you experienced folks:

In another thread here, high school sophomore Charli Collier is mentioned. So, I looked her up on ESPN, and there says:
April 11, 2015: Collier, who originally committed to Texas, decided to reopen her recruitment.

So, does this mean that a 9th grader had already committed to a college? How do they let someone so young make such a declaration? I thought the NCAA protected very young kids from recruiting pressure. Guess that shows my age!

Bags, there are folks who have forgotten more than I know about recruiting, but, as I understand it, an expression of verbal intent can be given as early as this. However, nothing is final until the written acceptance of an offer, which cannot be done until NCAA-specified time frames - and, I think the first one is sometime in the fall of a students' senior year in high school.

Basically, it's like that old Hollywood quote from - Sam Goldwin? - that goes something like "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on".

As to why someone so young would make such a declaration - having two daughters, and coached high school softball for many years, the mind of a high school student is a strange and wonderful thing - mostly, strange. And, sophomores are the biggest whack-jobs of them all.

In this case, maybe Charli has been a Longhorn fan for years, or maybe she just wanted to get the pressure off of her back, or maybe it just sounded cool, maybe her parents favored the 'Horns - who knows? There are almost as many reasons why a kid chooses a school as there are kids - and, as the transfer data for the - 2013? - class shows, the quality of these decisions doesn't seem to be getting any more stable with time.

 

[CocoHusky]

Q: So, does this mean that a 9th grader had already committed to a college?
For college basketball a child can "commit" to a college as early as possible. The youngest I have heard on the Girls side is 7th Grade on the boys side I heard as low a 5th grade.
The "commitment" is not binding on either side until the player signs a National Letter of Intent (NLI). The NLI cannot be signed until at earliest November of the recruits Senior year of HS. The NLI MUST be signed by both the parents and the recruit even if the recruit is pass their 18th Birthday. The signing of the NLI is the end of the recruiting process because the school can officially comment and other schools can no longer recruit the player. One additional benefit also is that the school can provide medical benefits to players that have signed NLI. I know this was the case with Caroline Doty's HS ACL surgery and rehabilitation was provided by the UCONN team doctors and trainers. I suspect Gabby second HS surgery was the same. When you see a kid commit early there is usually a couple of reasons family and Alumni connection to a specific school is the most common. Another common mistake is the Kid blew up suddenly and the parents have not had enough time to do the research and figure out that there is time to make a decision. There is a funny moment in the DT "Kid from Chino" special where she said she got her first letter from Wahlaha Community College in 7th grade and she said: "Yes, that is where I'm going- it can't get much better than that."

Q: How do they let someone so young make such a declaration?
A: As Pintobear said It is a verbal contract and isn't worth the paper it is written on. Actually there is no paper. Some hot shot in the Midwest can declare tomorrow that I'm committing to UCONN and nothing would happen.

 

[Orangutan]

At least some kids are eager to lock in an offer so they don't have to worry about whether they will get a scholarship or not. That was Katlyn Gilbert's (ranked #10 in '18 class) reasoning when she committed to Evansville as a 7th grader. Her mom said, "I see a lot of kids who have been as talented as Katlyn, or perhaps even better, who just get lost in the system. Going into their junior and senior year, they don't have any offers. That's all they worry about. I don't want that to happen to Katlyn."

She has since decommitted. I'm going to guess it's because they figured out how good Katlyn really is and that there was zero chance of her getting lost in the system.

More commonly, I think some kids make an impulsive choice based on a childhood favorite team before considering the realities of the situation. From the schools, perspective the reason to offer early is to demonstrate how much interest you have. To some kids it is a big deal that a school has wanted them since day one.

 

[UcMiami]

And just to be clear, the 'offers' made by colleges are just as 'binding' as the 'commitments' by the kids - while schools may fear the backlash if they do not honor a pre-NLI offer, it is pretty easy for a coach to get a de-commitment from a HS kid. All it takes is a clear statement that we will honor the offer and you can sit on the bench for 4 years.

What bothers me more and happens occasionally is when a coach commits to new recruits above their scholarship totals and in effect forces at least one team member to transfer. I believe that happened with UNC in Diamond's freshman class and with Baylor prior to this year. For Baylor it backfired a little as they lost an extra team member who was good and would have seen some serious playing time. It cannot be a pleasant situation for teammates as they tend to be very close, even the ones that are not getting lots of minutes.

 

[BobbyJ]

All very good points made. A couple of others that factor in are these. One is that some parents are more educated in the recruiting process than others and realize that these early offers are sometimes not necessarily "committable" offers. In other words, coaches are able to string along, let's say 10 kids knowing they may only have 4 scholarships available for the year in question. As that year approaches and the coach determines which 4 he/she wants to take, they have the wiggle room to tell the other 6 that they can't accept their formal commitment because "they don't have room" in the class for them. That's why it's probably a good idea for the parents to have the kid hold off on a verbal commitment until the coach assures them that he/she will accept the kid's commitment. This hedging by coaches is probably more common in football but it does take place. The more successful the program, the more common it is because those coaches can afford to cherry pick. The other point is that the coach who makes the early offer is sometimes no longer at that school 2-3 years after the offer is made and the new coach and the school are not responsible to honor that offer. Probably another reason not to bother making an early verbal commitment.

 

[Sonny44]

A question for you experienced folks:

In another thread here, high school sophomore Charli Collier is mentioned. So, I looked her up on ESPN, and there says:
April 11, 2015: Collier, who originally committed to Texas, decided to reopen her recruitment.

So, does this mean that a 9th grader had already committed to a college? How do they let someone so young make such a declaration? I thought the NCAA protected very young kids from recruiting pressure. Guess that shows my age!

One could make convincing argument that it's not working for us, lately at least.

 

[CocoHusky]

One could make convincing argument that it's not working for us, lately at least.

Sonny, I am not sure what you mean. What is not working for us lately?

 

[Sonny44]

Sonny, I am not sure what you mean. What is not working for us lately?

Recruiting, since the Threemendous 2013 it's been pretty bleak IMO.

 

[bags27]

I don't know nearly as much as you folks about this, but Geno seems to be suggesting that high school players have changed a lot and fewer seem willing to fully commit to what UConn demands of them. Everyone wants to be a star now, not necessarily "merely" a national champion (though that's a false dichotomy, because in playing team ball at UConn great players become even greater--but high school kids may not appreciate that). If Sonny is even partially correct, it will be an interesting test of whether a perhaps less talented but fully committed team can continue to compete with some of the perhaps more naturally talented, but maybe less well coached and less fully committed teams...and whether Geno, as he nears the "wrong" (my!) side of 60, maintains the enthusiasm to pull it off.

 

[JordyG]

Recruiting, since the Threemendous 2013 it's been pretty bleak IMO.

I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about. In 2015 UCONN got the #1 recruit, the #6 recruit and the #23 recruit. Boykin although ranked #23 was injured through much of her high school career she still made the roster of the 2013 U16 team. To me she remains a top 10 pick from that year. Does this sound like a paltry recruiting class to you? If by bleak you mean this past year, perhaps. No college gets 3 top ten recruits every year. Let's try being a little realistic and live a little beyond our noses.

 

[Fightin Choke]

Recruiting, since the Threemendous 2013 it's been pretty bleak IMO.

Are you serious? UConn's recruiting since 2013 has been very good.

Rankings are Hoopgurlz, Prospects Nation, Blue Star. I don't have the ASGR ratings handy, but they are typically VERY flattering to UConn recruits.

2013
Saniya Chong (75, 75, 30)

2014
Gabby Williams (14, 18, 6)
Kia Nurse (33, foreign, 10)
Sadie Edwards (17, 8, 9)
Courtney Ekmark (31, 26, 14)

2015
Katie Lou Samuelson (1, 2, 1)
Napheesa Collier (6, 6, 5)
De'Janae Boykin (23, 21, 9)

2016: Crystal Dangerfield (3, 4, 3)
Kyla Irwin (unranked, 103, 44)
Molly Bent (unranked, unranked, 111)

These rankings are lofty and most importantly, consistent. UConn may not have won the coveted "Best Class Award," but that was primarily because they didn't recruit large classes, but kept things rather balanced. They have suffered some attrition of these recruits due to transfers (Edwards and Boykin), but also acquired Butler through the transfer route. I honestly cannot understand how a UConn fan could complain!

 

[CocoHusky]

Recruiting, since the Threemendous 2013 it's been pretty bleak IMO.

Bleak? I think only partially bleak and only in the post position. The Tremendous Three (Stewie, Morgan, MoJeff) was actually 2012. The year after that we got Saniya but more importantly I think we dodged some bullets in that class consider the amount of transfers among the top players in the class. 2014 brought us (Kia, Sadie, Gabby & Courtney) the former three all ranked very near the top of the class. 2015 was a Stellar class as we snagged #1, #5 and #23. 2016 we got a #3 top guard in the class. We need to sign a contributing post in '17 but our recruiting classes stack up pretty well with most teams in contention for National Championships. In Sadie and De'Janae we lost a couple of McDonalds AA in consecutive years, I can't think of another program that can survive that. There are plenty of minutes available for a quality post players at UCONN in the next couple of years, someone will step up to the challenge.

 

[bags27]

Perhaps it's the relatively low ranking of Kyla and Molly that makes some worry? I personally like both of these kids enormously. I think Kyla is going to be a very big surprise on the upside next year: look at her recent numbers--she's got a fantastic motor. And Molly has had an amazingly quick upward trajectory, and is super-smart. She may not get a lot of playing time next year, but she'll be a leader in other ways very quickly. This is a still-waters recruiting class.

 

[Orangutan]

In Sadie and De'Janae we lost a couple of McDonalds AA in consecutive years, I can't think of another program that can survive that.

I can

(your post was very good but I couldn't resist)

 

[cabbie191]

To the point that colleges can make offers:

Last year, Miami's football coach offered scholarships to 3 8th graders.

http://www.syracuse.com/axeman/inde...all_scholarships_to_three_eighth-graders.html

Seems nuts to me ....................

 

[UcMiami]

I don't know nearly as much as you folks about this, but Geno seems to be suggesting that high school players have changed a lot and fewer seem willing to fully commit to what UConn demands of them. Everyone wants to be a star now, not necessarily "merely" a national champion (though that's a false dichotomy, because in playing team ball at UConn great players become even greater--but high school kids may not appreciate that). If Sonny is even partially correct, it will be an interesting test of whether a perhaps less talented but fully committed team can continue to compete with some of the perhaps more naturally talented, but maybe less well coached and less fully committed teams...and whether Geno, as he nears the "wrong" (my!) side of 60, maintains the enthusiasm to pull it off.

What I have heard from Geno and CD is that the pool of players they can recruit has shrunk mainly because the talent level on the team has increased. They were always limiting the pool based on players they wanted to work with - ones that fit into their philosophy. Now it is being additionally limited by having lots of talent already on the team.

 

[alexrgct]

Bags, there are folks who have forgotten more than I know about recruiting, but, as I understand it, an expression of verbal intent can be given as early as this. However, nothing is final until the written acceptance of an offer, which cannot be done until NCAA-specified time frames - and, I think the first one is sometime in the fall of a students' senior year in high school.

Basically, it's like that old Hollywood quote from - Sam Goldwin? - that goes something like "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on".

As to why someone so young would make such a declaration - having two daughters, and coached high school softball for many years, the mind of a high school student is a strange and wonderful thing - mostly, strange. And, sophomores are the biggest whack-jobs of them all.

In this case, maybe Charli has been a Longhorn fan for years, or maybe she just wanted to get the pressure off of her back, or maybe it just sounded cool, maybe her parents favored the 'Horns - who knows? There are almost as many reasons why a kid chooses a school as there are kids - and, as the transfer data for the - 2013? - class shows, the quality of these decisions doesn't seem to be getting any more stable with time.

Or, more centrally, isn't worth the paper it's NOT written on?

 

[reno tony]

To the point that colleges can make offers:

Last year, Miami's football coach offered scholarships to 3 8th graders.

http://www.syracuse.com/axeman/inde...all_scholarships_to_three_eighth-graders.html

Seems nuts to me .....

Miami also offered Jaden Newman a WBB at 10 years old.

 

[cabbie191]

Miami also offered Jaden Newman a WBB at 10 years old.

Even nuttier!

 

[Sonny44]

Bleak? I think only partially bleak and only in the post position. The Tremendous Three (Stewie, Morgan, MoJeff) was actually 2012. The year after that we got Saniya but more importantly I think we dodged some bullets in that class consider the amount of transfers among the top players in the class. 2014 brought us (Kia, Sadie, Gabby & Courtney) the former three all ranked very near the top of the class. 2015 was a Stellar class as we snagged #1, #5 and #23. 2016 we got a #3 top guard in the class. We need to sign a contributing post in '17 but our recruiting classes stack up pretty well with most teams in contention for National Championships. In Sadie and De'Janae we lost a couple of McDonalds AA in consecutive years, I can't think of another program that can survive that. There are plenty of minutes available for a quality post players at UCONN in the next couple of years, someone will step up to the challenge.

I knew I would take some heat about this. Bleak, not by other's standards, but by ours. That is, will it support a 5th, 6th, 7th etc. National Championship? That's what we're used to. Not hardly, and not only in the post either, although that's the most glaring deficiency. Ideally, you don't replace a player when they're gone; you provide overlap. One by one our most coveted have gone elsewhere.

Fighting Choke's data supports my argument.
2013
Saniya Chong (75, 75, 30) one recruit, still not a starter

2014
Gabby Williams (14, 18, 6) excellent
Kia Nurse (33, foreign, 10) a good serendipitous late find
Sadie Edwards (17, 8, 9) gone
Courtney Ekmark (31, 26, 14) a non-factor so far

2015
Katie Lou Samuelson (1, 2, 1) a starter
Napheesa Collier (6, 6, 5) a question mark with high hopes
De'Janae Boykin (23, 21, 9) gone

2016: Crystal Dangerfield (3, 4, 3) should be excellent
Kyla Irwin (unranked, 103, 44) unranked
Molly Bent (unranked, unranked, 111) unranked

It's not like I'm blaming anyone in particular, they just don't portend a continuing string of NC's. Geno et. al. are miracle workers, maybe they'll prove me wrong, I hope.

Meanwhile will the guy who first predicted that the AAC would hurt our recruiting please stand up and take a bow? Ok, ok there may be other reasons as well.

 

[SCGamecock]

With the parity in recruiting being the way it is now if 2018-2019 comes and we're talking about a 7th straight championship for UCONN.. even worse, a 10th straight championship a few years later then WCBB has major problems throughout. That pretty much means the rest of the country is failing at elevating their game to the level of UCONN's and that Geno is a dark magician that'll triumph over even the most stellar recruiting class... essentially leaving little hope for anybody else to win the natty as long as he is coaching.

Seriously though, I think Notre Dame does a great job at recruiting. They're the only school I can think of that seems to put a consistently well rounded and highly regarded class together each year. I personally think we're about to enter an era of dominance by the Fighting Irish... not necessarily UCONN style-we never lose-dominance, but I think they're about to get their share of titles. Plus, McGraw has a great system in South Bend, offensively and defensively..

I like Maryland's style of recruiting too... the areas they target and such, being a Mid-Atlantic school that recruits the North and South extremely well.

 

[Sonny44]

With the parity in recruiting being the way it is now if 2018-2019 comes and we're talking about a 7th straight championship for UCONN.. even worse, a 10th straight championship a few years later then WCBB has major problems throughout. That pretty much means the rest of the country is failing at elevating their game to the level of UCONN's and that Geno is a dark magician that'll triumph over even the most stellar recruiting class... essentially leaving little hope for anybody else to win the natty as long as he is coaching.

Seriously though, I think Notre Dame does a great job at recruiting. They're the only school I can think of that seems to put a consistently well rounded and highly regarded class together each year. I personally think we're about to enter an era of dominance by the Fighting Irish... not necessarily UCONN style-we never lose-dominance, but I think they're about to get their share of titles. Plus, McGraw has a great system in South Bend, offensively and defensively..

I like Maryland's style of recruiting too... the areas they target and such, being a Mid-Atlantic school that recruits the North and South extremely well.

You are probably right.
Our idea of parity is that the 2nd and 3rd best keep getting closer, but no cigar, ha.

 

[bags27]

Seriously though, I think Notre Dame does a great job at recruiting. They're the only school I can think of that seems to put a consistently well rounded and highly regarded class together each year. I personally think we're about to enter an era of dominance by the Fighting Irish... not necessarily UCONN style-we never lose-dominance, but I think they're about to get their share of titles. Plus, McGraw has a great system in South Bend, offensively and defensively...

Bold and candid words from a Gamecock. Overall, I've feared (and respected) Notre Dame the most for the past 15 years for what you say. But Muffet is getting on in age as well (she's only 18 months younger than Geno, and somehow she can't seem to change that), and so we enter the land of "you never know." At some point pretty soon, potential recruits are going to ask two questions of Geno and Muffet: 1. will you stay for the next 4 years; 2. if you are committed to staying the next four years, will you continue to have the same energy and enthusiasm for coaching? Geno and Muffet may answer "yes" to both questions, but about the second question competing coaches will whisper "no way" in the ears of recruits. Time is a cruel leveler....

 

[Dillon77]

As noted in several posts, this movement towards earlier and earlier recruiting and commitments is prevalent in many sports, including ones both of my (now college-aged, but not playing the sport) daughters engaged in: lacrosse. In fact, both guys and gals lacrosse started the move earlier, in part because it's a spring sport and some folks wanted to get a head start.

In recent years, the NCAA has moved toward deregulation and hasn’t shown a willingness to approve sport-specific legislation. However, to quote an article from Lax Magazine (link below for full article):
"The continued early commitments to top Division I programs have become a trend that many coaches want to end, spurring the IWLCA to submit two proposals to the NCAA in September. The first proposal would revise the Division I recruiting calendar and the second would standardize the initial date for all communication with prospective student athletes......
The recruiting contact date proposal was discussed at length at the end of 2015 by the NCAA's 10-person student-athlete experience committee (SAEC)" SAEC chair Bob Scalise is the Harvard athletic director and a two-time All-American lacrosse player at Brown. He is an outspoken critic of early recruiting.

Men's lacrosse and men's basketball coaches have expressed support of these proposals which, I believe, will be addressed by the NCAA again in April. Lax Magazine has been very good at covering this one...

http://www.laxmagazine.com/college_...ls_to_light_florida_select_caitlyn_wurzburger