Hokies were 'strongest candidate' for SEC expansion in 2012

[Slasher]

What I meant to say is that OSU's presence in Ohio would prevent the SEC from considering Cincinnati, as UC draws from a very localized city population versus the entire state of Ohio. In other words, UC doesn't really bring anything to the SEC table in terms of fanbase. ECU has a bit of a stronger case for the SEC than UC IMO.

I think Cincinnati has a much stronger case than ECU. Cincinnati has >43k enrollment (largest in it's history), resides in a very fertile recruiting ground (usually ranked #3 behind Texas and California), has much better academics (#63 top public schools - tied with LSU and UK according to US News - ECU is unranked), has much better brand recognition (non-directional school - BCS history - very good basketball history), and sits in a state with the 7th most population but just one Power 5 team (NC has 4.) And as important as football is to the SEC, the commissioner has repeatedly expressed disappointment in the basketball side of the conference, something Cincinnati can help in (2 national titles, 6 final fours, 28 tournament appearances including 4 straight.)

 

[pj]

I think Cincinnati has a much stronger case than ECU. Cincinnati has >43k enrollment (largest in it's history), resides in a very fertile recruiting ground (usually ranked #3 behind Texas and California), has much better academics (#63 top public schools - tied with LSU and UK according to US News - ECU is unranked), has much better brand recognition (non-directional school - BCS history - very good basketball history), and sits in a state with the 7th most population but just one Power 5 team (NC has 4.) And as important as football is to the SEC, the commissioner has repeatedly expressed disappointment in the basketball side of the conference, something Cincinnati can help in (2 national titles, 6 final fours, 28 tournament appearances including 4 straight.)

Except that Ohio is not "Southeast". If they want to maintain their Southeastern identity, then North Carolina and Virginia are the states they lack and need. If they want to grow outside the southeast, then they might as well go for UConn (much larger population base than Cincy, better basketball) over Cincy.

 

[Slasher]

Except that Ohio is not "Southeast". If they want to maintain their Southeastern identity, then North Carolina and Virginia are the states they lack and need. If they want to grow outside the southeast, then they might as well go for UConn (much larger population base than Cincy, better basketball) over Cincy.

Cincinnati is 80 miles north of UK, can't really see that being an issue.

EDIT: UConn isn't in a contiguous state, and actually the population difference isn't as big as you'd think. The Cincy metro area is 2.1M people, and the entire state of Connecticut is 3.59M people.

 

[clmssun]

Except that Ohio is not "Southeast". If they want to maintain their Southeastern identity, then North Carolina and Virginia are the states they lack and need. If they want to grow outside the southeast, then they might as well go for UConn (much larger population base than Cincy, better basketball) over Cincy.

Much of the Cincinnati metro area is in Kentucky. (It would be UK who would raise the strongest objections)

I hardly call Missouri "Southeast." And while Virginia folks probably aren't fond of Louisville folks, I hardly think they seek to be conference mates with schools in Arkansas and Mississippi.

Everybody knows the SEC "lacks" North Carolina and Virginia in the "Southeast". If the ACC goes unstable, those schools are available; if the ACC remains stable, those schools are not available.

Everyone agrees the B1G, SEC, and Pac are "above" the ACC and Big XII. Everyone agrees that, for better and worse, the Pac is geographically unique and isolated. My main point in "suggesting" Cincinnati to the SEC (or Vandy to B1G) is that is/are the best avenues toward cross-pollination and head-to-head competition between the behemoths, and yes, I think Cincy to SEC is more likely than Vandy to B1G.

 

[pj]

UConn brings Connecticut plus significant share in NYC and Boston. Cincy brings only a fraction of the Cincinnati market given that, as clmssun says, the SEC already has Kentucky.

Kentucky like Missouri has a part-southern feel whereas Ohio is all north. If you are going north, there's more to be said for showcasing SEC teams in NY/New England than for extending their Kentucky franchise a few miles north.

I agree with clmssun that the SEC won't reach for the likes of ECU but will wait to see if an ACC team will give them entry into Virginia or North Carolina. But, if they find one team to expand and are looking for a partner, I think UConn would be better than Cincy, odd as that may seem to most SEC fans.

 

[Calamitous]

Much of the Cincinnati metro area is in Kentucky. (It would be UK who would raise the strongest objections)

I hardly call Missouri "Southeast." And while Virginia folks probably aren't fond of Louisville folks, I hardly think they seek to be conference mates with schools in Arkansas and Mississippi.

Everybody knows the SEC "lacks" North Carolina and Virginia in the "Southeast". If the ACC goes unstable, those schools are available; if the ACC remains stable, those schools are not available.

Everyone agrees the B1G, SEC, and Pac are "above" the ACC and Big XII. Everyone agrees that, for better and worse, the Pac is geographically unique and isolated. My main point in "suggesting" Cincinnati to the SEC (or Vandy to B1G) is that is/are the best avenues toward cross-pollination and head-to-head competition between the behemoths, and yes, I think Cincy to SEC is more likely than Vandy to B1G.

I've been talking a lot about ECU and some others Cincinnati; but the reality is that neither will make it into the SEC or B1G without something spectacular happening for each school (i.e. ECU wins 2 NCs in the next 5 years in football). Even then, the SEC still may not be receptive. The B1G and SEC want a wholesale school that can lay claim to their entire state. That's why you only see 1 private school in each of their conferences while the others are flagship, land grant or both.

In a way, FSU is just like ECU. FSU is not the flagship school nor is it the land grant school for Florida. They are tucked away in the panhandle away from the bulk of the state's population, but at least in the state's capital. If FSU were in Pensacola and called Western Florida instead of Florida State, the perception of them may have been different. Maybe Cincinnati ought to rename themselves Taft University and ECU should rename themselves Carolina University (although UNC and USC-e would go nuts if they even tried). And along the same lines, I think if UConn were in Hartford or Stamford instead of Storrs and Virginia Tech in Fairfax County or Virginia Beach instead of Blacksburg, their perception would be very different.

 

[clmssun]

Yes, FSU was much later to the "big school" party than UF (due to its roots as a women's school, which is older than UF), but, my, has it gained ground. More and more with each passing day, FSU to UF is like Texas A&M to UT-Austin.

Given the chess being played by the conference commissioners, I would not rule out Delany pursuing Vandy nor Slive pursuing Cincy for the express purpose of planting a flagpole up the other's a s s in the other's "territory." The SEC routinely embarrasses the B1G on the football field; what better way to assert superiority?

 

[Calamitous]

Yes, FSU was much later to the "big school" party than UF (due to its roots as a women's school, which is older than UF), but, my, has it gained ground. More and more with each passing day, FSU to UF is like Texas A&M to UT-Austin.

aTm is very comparable to Texas. Both have > 50,000 students. aTm = $8.7 bil endowment compared to Texas $6.0 bil. Big time money. Texas is ranked 15 spots ahead of aTm in USNWR (both are top 70).

FSU is catching up to Florida in student population (41K to UF's 49K). UF has a $1.4 bil endowment while FSU is just over $500 million. FSU may be near the bottom of the ACC in terms of endowments, as I know my school is close to the bottom at $750 million. UF is ranked 44 spots ahead of FSU in USNWR (48 vs 95). Not saying FSU is a bad school, but they still have a lot of work to do to catch up to UF IMO.

 

[pj]

FSU is not the flagship school nor is it the land grant school for Florida. They are tucked away in the panhandle away from the bulk of the state's population, but at least in the state's capital. If FSU were in Pensacola and called Western Florida instead of Florida State, the perception of them may have been different. ... And along the same lines, I think if UConn were in Hartford or Stamford instead of Storrs and Virginia Tech in Fairfax County or Virginia Beach instead of Blacksburg, their perception would be very different.

Storrs is a lot closer to Hartford (28 miles), or for that matter NYC (141 miles) and Boston (86 miles), than Tallahassee is to Tampa (275 mi), Orlando (257 mi), or Jacksonville (165 mi), or than Blacksburg is to DC (269 mi) or Richmond (217 miles).

 

[CoastAtlantic]

Would a WVU/UConn combo work for the SEC? Both state flagships schools and would give that conference access to key Eastern markets, not to mention the basketball for the SECN.

 

[Calamitous]

Storrs is a lot closer to Hartford (28 miles), or for that matter NYC (141 miles) and Boston (86 miles), than Tallahassee is to Tampa (275 mi), Orlando (257 mi), or Jacksonville (165 mi), or than Blacksburg is to DC (269 mi) or Richmond (217 miles).

Storrs is technically a part of the Hartford MSA as well. But a lot of people still view Storrs as being in the sticks (no offense intended). Not like Tech though... you really have to go out of your way to get to Blacksburg. Even Penn State has less travel miles to big cities. They are 193 miles to Philadelphia and 136 miles to Pittsburgh, some of which are hard mountain miles. My school is probably one of the more difficult big universities to get to east of the Mississippi, barring maybe Mississippi State in Starkville. Orono Maine is almost as close to Boston as Tech is to Richmond. Jim Boeheim, Jim Calhoun and Geno Auriemma have all taken stabs at us "hicks" from Blacksburg... surprised that we have electricity

 

[billybud]

aTm is very comparable to Texas. Both have > 50,000 students. aTm = $8.7 bil endowment compared to Texas $6.0 bil. Big time money. Texas is ranked 15 spots ahead of aTm in USNWR (both are top 70).

FSU is catching up to Florida in student population (41K to UF's 49K). UF has a $1.4 bil endowment while FSU is just over $500 million. FSU may be near the bottom of the ACC in terms of endowments, as I know my school is close to the bottom at $750 million. UF is ranked 44 spots ahead of FSU in USNWR (48 vs 95). Not saying FSU is a bad school, but they still have a lot of work to do to catch up to UF IMO.

Being a Land Grant Uni is overblown....USC, UCLA, Oregon, and Texas...for example, are not land grant Universities...while in Texas, A&M and Prairie View are...in Oregon, Oregon State is, not Oregon...Virginia is not while VT is....

Oklahoma is not while Oklahoma State is a landgrant.

Michigan is not a land grant uni, nor is North Carolina...Iowa is not, Iowa State is...etc.

Alabama is not...Auburn is...

And, FSU is one of the two Flagship universities designated as such by the Florida legislature.

 

[pj]

Storrs is technically a part of the Hartford MSA as well. But a lot of people still view Storrs as being in the sticks (no offense intended). Not like Tech though... you really have to go out of your way to get to Blacksburg. Even Penn State has less travel miles to big cities. They are 193 miles to Philadelphia and 136 miles to Pittsburgh, some of which are hard mountain miles. My school is probably one of the more difficult big universities to get to east of the Mississippi, barring maybe Mississippi State in Starkville. Orono Maine is almost as close to Boston as Tech is to Richmond.

The problem in Connecticut is underinvestment in freeways. 60 miles in Connecticut is like 120 miles in other parts of the country.

 

[Calamitous]

The problem in Connecticut is underinvestment in freeways. 60 miles in Connecticut is like 120 miles in other parts of the country.

I always feel like CT is a deceiving long state. You look on a map and the reality feel like 2 different things.

 

[Calamitous]

Being a Land Grant Uni is overblown....USC, UCLA, Oregon, and Texas...for example, are not land grant Universities...while in Texas, A&M and Prairie View are...in Oregon, Oregon State is, not Oregon...Virginia is not while VT is....

Oklahoma is not while Oklahoma State is a landgrant.

Michigan is not a land grant uni, nor is North Carolina...Iowa is not, Iowa State is...etc.

And, FSU is one of the two Flagship universities designated as such by the Florida legislature.

But the ones you mention are all Flagship schools except for USC-w and UCLA. UCLA is part of a very prestigious state university system that places several UC-insert name universities in the top 100 academically. USC is a private university. Oregon, UVa and Texas are the flagships. The big conferences, barring the ACC, want flagships or land grants. The proof is in their membership. B1G has one school that doesn't qualify (NW), same with the SEC (Vandy). The PAC has all flagship or land grant universities except for Stanford and USC-w. UCLA technically has flagship status. The Big XII has all flagship or land grant universities except for Baylor, TCU and Texas Tech (TT is akin to FSU and are at least a large state school). Before the departure of Nebraska, aTm, Colorado and Mizzou, Baylor was the Big XII's only private school. The ACC has a total of 3 land grant schools (Clemson, NCSU & VT), 2 flagship schools (UVa & UNC), 3 state schools (FSU, GT & Pitt), 1 state-city-commuter school (UL) and 5.5 private schools (Miami, Duke, Wake, SU, BC and a partial ND).

 

[Calamitous]

Would a WVU/UConn combo work for the SEC? Both state flagships schools and would give that conference access to key Eastern markets, not to mention the basketball for the SECN.

WVU would. West Virginia is somewhat southeast even if Morgantown is Pittsburgh-centric. If Connecticut were in the southeast, UConn would too. A WVU / ECU combo is something the SEC should really look at IMO.

 

[billybud]

Calamitous...FSU IS a Flagship school...one of the three so designated in Florida in Florida by the Florida Legislature.

The term "Flagship" is pretty undefined (in legal terms)...leading folks to make up their own lists based on perception. Dr. Bergdahl probably offers the best interpretation.

As far as legal definition goes....The Florida Legislature officially has designated Florida, FSU, and USF as the state "flagship universities". And this has some actual meaning......in terms of increased state funding versus other state public universities.

But those of us in the know will tell you that the official Florida Flagship is in Key West.


"
TALLAHASSEE — The Florida Legislature has OK'd the schooner Western Union as the state's official flagship.

The House on Wednesday voted for the bill (SB 326) by 115-0. The Senate already approved the measure.

The Western Union is a 130-foot-long ship based in Key West, where it is being turned into a floating museum.

 

[Calamitous]

Calamitous...FSU IS a Flagship school...one of the three so designated in Florida in Florida by the Florida Legislature.

The term "Flagship" is pretty undefined (in legal terms)...leading folks to make up their own lists based on perception. Dr. Bergdahl probably offers the best interpretation.

As far as legal definition goes....The Florida Legislature officially has designated Florida, FSU, and USF as the state "flagship universities". And this has some actual meaning.in terms of increased state funding versus other state public universities.

Understood. I believe the original move in 2010 was that UF was trying to establish themselves as the sole flagship as the state didn't have an official flagship school. Then FSU and others jumped in and wanted to be part of the party. Am I close on this assumption? Anyway, didn't mean to disrespect FSU's flagship status.

 

[billybud]

Understood. I believe the original move in 2010 was that UF was trying to establish themselves as the sole flagship as the state didn't have an official flagship school. Then FSU and others jumped in and wanted to be part of the party. Am I close on this assumption? Anyway, didn't mean to disrespect FSU's flagship status.

Yep...Florida politics have been an arm wrestling match between FSU and Florida...

Florida has tried for some years to have their university named as the state's "flagship" university....But ran into powerful politicians connected with FSU.

Senator John Thrasher (FSU booster) was Chair of the Republican Party of Florida and is Vice Chair of the Subcommittee for Higher Education Expenditures and Chair of the Rules Committee...He was one that stopped the Florida lobby along with the Speaker of the House, Alan Bense.

Bense is current FSU Board Chairman and Thrasher is a front runner for the FSU President position which has been vacant since Barron accepted Penn State's presidency.

Weatherford, the current Speaker of the House is the son in law of Alan Bense and his brother played quarterback at FSU....

 

[Calamitous]

Yep...Florida politics have been an arm wrestling match between FSU and Florida...

Florida has tried for some years to have their university named as the state's "flagship" university....But ran into powerful politicians connected with FSU.

Senator John Thrasher (FSU booster) was Chair of the Republican Party of Florida and is Vice Chair of the Subcommittee for Higher Education Expenditures and Chair of the Rules Committee...He was one that stopped the Florida lobby along with the Speaker of the House, Alan Bense.

Bense is current FSU Board Chairman and Thrasher is a front runner for the FSU President position which has been vacant since Barron accepted Penn State's presidency.

Weatherford, the current Speaker of the House is the son in law of Alan Bense and his brother played quarterback at FSU....

I think Texas (aTm, UT, Houston, North Texas) is like Florida, but with even more schools identifying themselves as flagship universities. There may be some other states like this too. I don't see Purdue or Clemson listed as flagships, but I've heard they're considered flagships in their states as well.