Great Players Win Championships | The Boneyard

Great Players Win Championships

oldude

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With apologies to a number of BY’ers who have initiated similarly themed threads and posts over the past couple days, I decided to initiate my own thread/post on this topic while borrowing liberally from your well-stated musings on the subject.

During each of UConn’s 11 national championships, I would argue that the Huskies had either the best player in the country and/or one or more dominant scorer(s) who had the ability to put the ball on the floor and score whenever the offense bogged down. In 1995 UConn had the best player in Rebecca as well as another player who could take over on offense in Jen, along with a really talented supporting cast. In 2000, UConn had the best collection of scoring guards ever on the same team with Shea, Sveta & Sue, along with another really talented supporting cast. For each of the next 9 championships the Huskies had one of the 3 greatest WBB players of all time: DT (3), Maya (2) & Stewie (4),

During each of the past two remarkable seasons, UConn has fielded a wonderful group of smart, talented basketball players that has relied on beautiful offensive sets, movement, pinpoint passing and great shooting. But against MS St’s tough man-to-man pressure last year, and ND’s matchup zone this year, both of which took UConn out of their offensive sets to a significant degree, the Huskies fell just short, unable, in either instance, to convert a late score that would have won the game. In both games, UConn struggled at times to run their offense and they turned the ball over more than usual. So what exactly was missing?

It is no accident that each of the other 3 teams in this year’s FF possess one dominant offensive player who could shoot as well as put the ball on the floor and take it to the basket. Vivians, Durr and ND’s FF hero, Ogunbowle are each of their team’s “go to” players when they need a bucket. Last season, SC’s Wilson was the dominant player, ably assisted by Gray & Davis who consistently beat defenders off the dribble.

As for UConn, they do have two players who can consistently beat defenders off the dribble. Crystal is explosively quick. She can dish and has a nice pull up jumper. But at 5’5”, Crystal can get lost among the trees when she drives to the basket. Gabby is also explosively quick. She can dish and finish at the rim against much bigger players. But Gabby lacks the consistent pull-up jump shot to be the “go to” scorer. What Vic Schaefer and Muffet McGraw realized is that if you force UConn to put the ball on the floor, you’ve got a chance to beat them. But fear not, I believe help may be on the way.

While I know that many BY’ers are disappointed with MW, I would only point out that Tina, Mo, Gabby, Crystal and many other UConn stars didn’t set the world on fire during their freshman year. Even DT shot an abysmal 1-15 in her first national semifinal as a freshman. After that, DT lead the Huskies to 3 straight championships. Before I moved back to upstate NY, I lived in Chesterfield, VA where I had the opportunity to follow MW closely during her freshman & sophomore years at Monacan HS. Even back then, MW could take over a game. While she was a good shooter, her size and athleticism allowed her to drive into the paint and score almost at will. MW has shown us some glimpses of that ability this season. I believe that we will see a significant sophomore leap from MW next season when she will start, and Geno will ask her to be far more aggressive on offense.

But there’s more. We all got another glimpse of the future watching the McD AA game last week. CW is the real deal. She is a big, physical guard with a beautiful handle, who’s shot is “money” from the arc. CW can beat players off the dribble, pull up for a soft jump shot, dish to teammates or finish at the rim with either hand. CW reminds me of Chennedy Carter, only with much more discipline. Like all freshmen, CW will go through a learning period, and there will be some tough lessons, but I am hopeful that by about midway through the season, she will start to show everyone that she is the best freshman in the country, capable of lighting it up on any given night.

While it’s not absolutely necessary to have a dominant player/scorer to win a championship, at every level, HS, college and pro, men’s or women’s, more often than not, the team that usually wins the championship has one or more dominant player/scorer. Undoubtedly, Geno and his staff will look hard at the ND game in order to fix the problems that lead to the loss. Fortunately, they won’t have to look too far as the answers will hopefully be standing right in front of them when practice starts next fall. When it’s all said and done, GREAT PLAYERS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS.
 
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oldude

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One interesting and somewhat counterintuitive aspect of UConn's lack of a big time scorer who can isolate one-on-one with a defender is the fact that UConn has lead the nation in each of the last two seasons in assists. Last year UConn set the all-time single season record with 863 assists. This season the Huskies were only 20 assists short of that mark, and would certainly have had a decent chance to break the record had they made it to the national final. As Seth Greenberg recently stated, "UConn is the best passing team in basketball, men's or women's, college or pro." But every now and then, when everyone is covered, it would be really nice to have a DT type player to just take the ball and score.
 

SVCBeercats

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Oldude: "When it’s all said and done, GREAT PLAYERS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS."

Good job! I was just about to make a similar point by saying Chistyn Williams had better be a dominant transformative player in order for UCONN to win the national title any time soon. UCONN wins with dominant transformative players. During the last two years UCONN has not had a dominant transformative player.
UCONN NCAA Tournament champions
1995 – Rebecca Lobo
2000 – TASS
2002 - Diana Taurasi
2003 - Diana Taurasi
2004 - Diana Taurasi
2009 - Maya Moore
2010- Maya Moore
2013 – Breanna Stewart
2014 – Breanna Stewart
2015 – Breanna Stewart
2016 – Breanna Stewart
 

oldude

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Good job! I was just about to make a similar point by saying Chistyn Williams had better be a dominant transformative player in order for UCONN to win the national title any time soon. UCONN wins with dominant transformative players. During the last two year UCONN has not had a dominant transformative player.
UCONN NCAA Tournament champions
1995 – Rebecca Lobo
2000 – TASS
2002 - Diana Taurasi
2003 - Diana Taurasi
2004 - Diana Taurasi
2009 - Maya Moore
2010- Maya Moore
2013 – Breanna Stewart
2014 – Breanna Stewart
2015 – Breanna Stewart
2016 – Breanna Stewart
The one thing I'm a little worried about is the window for success. It would be great if both MW and CW step up next year as dominant scorers. When paired along with Lou, Pheesa, Z and Crystal, UConn could have one of their most formidable offensive teams ever. However, if it takes another year for MW & CW to really develop, then UConn loses Lou, Pheesa & Z and the supporting cast is not as formidable, with the potential to depend on "yet to be determined" incoming freshmen, along with ONO to fill the front court spots.
 
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I remember listening to the FAN Mike Francesa many years ago when during a FF interview with Jim Calhoun, he kept asking JC "who is your go to guy?". It somehow stuck with me over the years as both men and women BB have won with the go to player and have lost without one. Khalid El Amin and Richard Hamilton came to mind for the men, for the women there were so many already mentioned above.
 
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If MW becomes a big time impact player it will be a shame she did not get substantial minutes this year and be allowed to develop. She might have been able to help in the final four. While D had a terrible 1st final four game, she had been an impact player all year. Geno is very 'loyal' to his 'starters', almost to a fault and sometimes to the detriment of the team. I can still remember when Caroline Doty had to practically be wheeled onto the court her last year as I was saying to no one: 'let the little girl play'. The little girl was Freshman Moriah Jefferson.
 
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I wrote this on another thread:

As Geno used to say: "I've got Di and you don't". Dianna Taurasi is what I call a Transcendent Player. A player whose cobination of talent, competetiveness, personality and leadership made her unique. She had a significant impact on the program immediately. The Dianna Taurasi's of the world are few and far between. With a top level program supporting cast they lead their teams to Championships. After college they will become recognized as among if not the best players in the world. Since 1995 I would classify the following in that category: Jackie Stiles, Chamique Holdsclaw, Taurasi, Candace Parker, Mya Moore, Elena Delle Donne and Brianna Stewart. Maybe I missed someone? Among current college players I think Sabrina Ionescu may be one. Stiles was robbed of professional greatness by injury and Holdsclaw although having a lifetime WNBA average of 20 points per game had inner demons to fight that limited her true greatness. The others have proved how special they are over and over again.

Geno has had the fortune of coaching three of those players and 9 of his 11 championships had one of these players. Pat Summit won five of her championships with these players. It is not a coincidence. Geno is a great coach but he has been fortunate to have three (almost four) of the all-time best players.
 

oldude

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I wrote this on another thread:

As Geno used to say: "I've got Di and you don't". Dianna Taurasi is what I call a Transcendent Player. A player whose cobination of talent, competetiveness, personality and leadership made her unique. She had a significant impact on the program immediately. The Dianna Taurasi's of the world are few and far between. With a top level program supporting cast they lead their teams to Championships. After college they will become recognized as among if not the best players in the world. Since 1995 I would classify the following in that category: Jackie Stiles, Chamique Holdsclaw, Taurasi, Candace Parker, Mya Moore, Elena Delle Donne and Brianna Stewart. Maybe I missed someone? Among current college players I think Sabrina Ionescu may be one. Stiles was robbed of professional greatness by injury and Holdsclaw although having a lifetime WNBA average of 20 points per game had inner demons to fight that limited her true greatness. The others have proved how special they are over and over again.

Geno has had the fortune of coaching three of those players and 9 of his 11 championships had one of these players. Pat Summit won five of her championships with these players. It is not a coincidence. Geno is a great coach but he has been fortunate to have three (almost four) of the all-time best players.
Fingers crossed that he has another one or two Transcendent Players on the roster next season.
 

bbsamjj

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I wrote this on another thread:

As Geno used to say: "I've got Di and you don't". Dianna Taurasi is what I call a Transcendent Player. A player whose cobination of talent, competetiveness, personality and leadership made her unique. She had a significant impact on the program immediately. The Dianna Taurasi's of the world are few and far between. With a top level program supporting cast they lead their teams to Championships. After college they will become recognized as among if not the best players in the world. Since 1995 I would classify the following in that category: Jackie Stiles, Chamique Holdsclaw, Taurasi, Candace Parker, Mya Moore, Elena Delle Donne and Brianna Stewart. Maybe I missed someone? Among current college players I think Sabrina Ionescu may be one. Stiles was robbed of professional greatness by injury and Holdsclaw although having a lifetime WNBA average of 20 points per game had inner demons to fight that limited her true greatness. The others have proved how special they are over and over again.

Geno has had the fortune of coaching three of those players and 9 of his 11 championships had one of these players. Pat Summit won five of her championships with these players. It is not a coincidence. Geno is a great coach but he has been fortunate to have three (almost four) of the all-time best players.

I would add Griner to that category, maybe Catchings. In terms of recent players, Wilson is on the edge (though I would put her more in an "exceptionally excellent" category like Tina Charles/Sylvia Fowles/Angel McCoughtry as opposed to transcendent)
 

SVCBeercats

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The one thing I'm a little worried about is the window for success. It would be great if both MW and CW step up next year as dominant scorers. When paired along with Lou, Pheesa, Z and Crystal, UConn could have one of their most formidable offensive teams ever. However, if it takes another year for MW & CW to really develop, then UConn loses Lou, Pheesa & Z and the supporting cast is not as formidable, with the potential to depend on "yet to be determined" incoming freshmen, along with ONO to fill the front court spots.

I am suspect your fears will reach fruition. Only Maya Moore had "got it" in her freshman year. So Williams has to be "legendary" in her freshman year. ONO will have to be on her heels as well.
 
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I wrote this on another thread:

As Geno used to say: "I've got Di and you don't". Dianna Taurasi is what I call a Transcendent Player. A player whose cobination of talent, competetiveness, personality and leadership made her unique. She had a significant impact on the program immediately. The Dianna Taurasi's of the world are few and far between. With a top level program supporting cast they lead their teams to Championships. After college they will become recognized as among if not the best players in the world. Since 1995 I would classify the following in that category: Jackie Stiles, Chamique Holdsclaw, Taurasi, Candace Parker, Mya Moore, Elena Delle Donne and Brianna Stewart. Maybe I missed someone? Among current college players I think Sabrina Ionescu may be one. Stiles was robbed of professional greatness by injury and Holdsclaw although having a lifetime WNBA average of 20 points per game had inner demons to fight that limited her true greatness. The others have proved how special they are over and over again.

Geno has had the fortune of coaching three of those players and 9 of his 11 championships had one of these players. Pat Summit won five of her championships with these players. It is not a coincidence. Geno is a great coach but he has been fortunate to have three (almost four) of the all-time best players.

It angers me that the last two years lend credence to the narrative that Geno can't win close games or Geno can't win without a generational talent.

On the latter, who is responsible for developing that generational talent?
 

Aluminny69

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Oldude: "When it’s all said and done, GREAT PLAYERS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS."

Good job! I was just about to make a similar point by saying Chistyn Williams had better be a dominant transformative player in order for UCONN to win the national title any time soon. UCONN wins with dominant transformative players. During the last two years UCONN has not had a dominant transformative player.
UCONN NCAA Tournament champions
1995 – Rebecca Lobo
2000 – TASS
2002 - Diana Taurasi
2003 - Diana Taurasi
2004 - Diana Taurasi
2009 - Maya Moore
2010- Maya Moore
2013 – Breanna Stewart
2014 – Breanna Stewart
2015 – Breanna Stewart
2016 – Breanna Stewart
Let me add non-UConn winners and MOP
2001 - Notre Dame Ruth Riley
2005 - Baylor Sophia Young
2006 - Maryland Laura Harper
2007 Tenn Candace Parker
2008 Tenn Candace Parker
2011 Texas A&M Danielle Adams
2012 Baylor Britney Griner
2017 S. Carolina A'ja Wilson
 
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I think generational talent is nurtured, not developed. Most of these players were the best player (or nearly the best) on their team the 1st time they stepped on the floor. This is why I think Ionescu may be in this category. She was the best player on her team as a freshman and one of the best players in the country as a sophomore. She is clearly the leader of her team already.
 
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So if UConn needs the transcendent generational type player (the type that is so much better than every one else it's obvious and doesn't matter who the opposition has) to win a national championship, how come other teams don't?
 

oldude

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So if UConn needs the transcendent generational type player (the type that is so much better than every one else it's obvious and doesn't matter who the opposition has) to win a national championship, how come other teams don't?
While a transcendent talent may be a necessary ingredient for a national championship, it’s still a team game. SC won last year with Wilson, and this year they were blown out by UConn at the Regionals. The obvious difference, no Gray, Davis or Cuevas-Moore.
 

bbsamjj

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Agree with olddude, and with the idea that generational talent is mostly "nurtured" as opposed to developed. Almost every player who is ranked #1 out of HS is going to become an exceptional player, barring injuries or something else weird.

I would argue that since Stewart left, there has been no "transcendent" talent replacement in WCBB. A LOT of very good players, but no one at the Stewart/Parker/Moore/Griner level.

In fact, if you just look at the All American lists, the fact that this Final Four was the closest in history (?) makes sense when considering the distribution of talent:

Miss St: 1 first team AA (Vivians), 1 3rd team (McCowan)
Louisville: 1 first team AA (Durr), 1 3rd team (Hines Allen)
UConn: 1 first team (Samuelson), 1 2nd team (Williams), 1 3rd team (Collier)
ND: 1 second team (Arike)
 
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The generation talent argument is flawed true. Sorry but Arike isn’t a generational talent & led her team to a championship. She was barely an AA this year. You could also argue the talent is far better on other teams, especially when DT & Maya were around.

Keep this in mind, the USA national team only named 4 current college players to its roster. Asia Durr, A’ja Wilson, Lou & Pheesa. So, we have 2/3 remaining college players on our roster. I think we will be fine.
 

bbsamjj

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I don't think anyone is arguing that Arike IS a generational talent, more so that there were not any generational talents in WCBB this year.

In terms of distro of talent, this Final Four reminds me a lot of the 2006 final four of MD, UNC, Duke, LSU.
 
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During each of UConn’s 11 national championships, I would argue that the Huskies had either the best player in the country and/or one or more dominant scorer(s) who had the ability to put the ball on the floor and score whenever the offense bogged down. In 1995 UConn had the best player in Rebecca as well as another player who could take over on offense in Jen, along with a really talented supporting cast. In 2000, UConn had the best collection of scoring guards ever on the same team with Shea, Sveta & Sue, along with another really talented supporting cast. For each of the next 9 championships the Huskies had one of the 3 greatest WBB players of all time: DT (3), Maya (2) & Stewie (4),

UConn's go to player in 1995 was Nykesha Sales.

Your points are well taken.
 

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I think generational talent is nurtured, not developed. Most of these players were the best player (or nearly the best) on their team the 1st time they stepped on the floor. This is why I think Ionescu may be in this category. She was the best player on her team as a freshman and one of the best players in the country as a sophomore. She is clearly the leader of her team already.

They do need support from their teammates. They really can't do it by themselves. Their support teammates need superior coaching to get them to the needed level and the superstar needs the superior coaching to shape and refine her game. Ionescu cannot do it by herself. She needs to understand this. When her team gets behind she tries to take over the game by herself dribbling all over the place and Oregon's offensive scheme be damned. This works against weak to good teams not as much against very good to excellent teams. When she learns to stay within their offensive scheme and TRUST her teammates then the NCAA title will within her and her team's grasp.
 
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...Transcendent Player. A player whose combination of talent, competitiveness, personality and leadership made her unique. She had a significant impact on the program immediately. The Diana Taurasi's of the world are few and far between. With a top level program supporting cast they lead their teams to Championships. After college they will become recognized as among if not the best players in the world. Since 1995 I would classify the following in that category: Jackie Stiles, Chamique Holdsclaw, Taurasi, Candace Parker, Maya Moore, Elena Delle Donne and Brianna Stewart. Maybe I missed someone? Among current college players I think Sabrina Ionescu may be one. Stiles was robbed of professional greatness by injury and Holdsclaw although having a lifetime WNBA average of 20 points per game had inner demons to fight that limited her true greatness. The others have proved how special they are over and over again.

Geno has had the fortune of coaching three of those players and 9 of his 11 championships had one of these players. Pat Summit won five of her championships with these players. It is not a coincidence. Geno is a great coach but he has been fortunate to have three (almost four) of the all-time best players.
Agree on the transcendent player concept and most of your players. But what team has EDD ever led to a championship?
 

bballnut90

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Oldude: "When it’s all said and done, GREAT PLAYERS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS."

Good job! I was just about to make a similar point by saying Chistyn Williams had better be a dominant transformative player in order for UCONN to win the national title any time soon. UCONN wins with dominant transformative players. During the last two years UCONN has not had a dominant transformative player.
UCONN NCAA Tournament champions
1995 – Rebecca Lobo
2000 – TASS
2002 - Diana Taurasi
2003 - Diana Taurasi
2004 - Diana Taurasi
2009 - Maya Moore
2010- Maya Moore
2013 – Breanna Stewart
2014 – Breanna Stewart
2015 – Breanna Stewart
2016 – Breanna Stewart

Worth noting...2002 DT had a pretty mediocre game besides drawing the 5th on Dales. And in 2000, it was really a true team effort that year. Ralph and Schumacher were sensational in the finals while TASS didn’t standout much.

I do agree though, great go to players win championships. You saw similar results at Tennessee where 7/8 titles were led by Parker, Mique or Gordon. Many years Tennessee came quite close without a big standout (2003-2005) but couldn’t get it done.

I wouldn’t put all my chips on freshman CW being that player right away...I think both KLS and Collier can be the goto game on the line player for you next season even if they came up short this year.
 

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I wouldn’t put all my chips on freshman CW being that player right away...I think both KLS and Collier can be the goto game on the line player for you next season even if they came up short this year.

Maya Moore was the only freshman for UCONN who had a stellar freshman year. The odds are against a stellar year for Williams but she could (must?) have a really good freshman year. The same must be said for ONO. If they are significant contributors, it will be good. One can hope the remaining three frosh will have much better sophomore seasons. Although the were quite unremarkable this season.
 
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Maya Moore was the only freshman for UCONN who had a stellar freshman year. The odds are against a stellar year for Williams but she could (must?) have a really good freshman year. The same must be said for ONO. If they are significant contributors, it will be good. One can hope the remaining three frosh will have much better sophomore seasons. Although the were quite unremarkable this season.

Maybe my standard is different but Nykesha Sales, Diana Taurasi, Tina Charles, and Brianna Stewart all had very good, if not stellar, freshman seasons.
 

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