Good players; no championships | The Boneyard

Good players; no championships

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FanFromMaine

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In the NBA, Tom Van Arsdale holds the record for most games played, 929, without ever reaching the post-season. And he was a three time NBA all star.

Why do some good players never win it all? Angel McCoughtry comes to mind. She has played 349 games in the WNBA. If her injury allows, Angel may still win a championship with the Aces. But to date she has never won a game in the Finals.

Thoughts?
 
Most without winning a championship series

Career Win Shares.
  • Becky Hammon (45.0)
  • Vickie Johnson (40.5)
  • Angel McCoughtry (37.6)
  • Tina Charles (37.0)
  • Sancho Lyttle (35.8)
Career All-WNBA Teams
  • Tina Charles (8)
  • Angel McCoughtry (6)
  • Becky Hammon, Sophia Young-Malcolm, Courtney Vanderslott, Skylar Diggins-Smith, Teresa Weatherspoon (4)
Career Games Played
  • Becky Hammon (450)
  • Monique Currie (411)
  • Vickie Johnson (410)
  • Michelle Snow (402)
  • Chasity Melvin (393)
Most without appearing in championship series

Career Win Shares
  • Tina Charles (37.0)
  • Chasity Melvin (33.8)
  • Chamique Holdslaw (33)
  • Michelle Snow (31.4)
  • Natalie Williams (29.3)
Career All-WNBA Teams
  • Tina Charles (8)
  • Skylar Diggins-Smith (4)
  • Chamique Holdsclaw & Natalie Williams (3)
  • Liz Cambage & Eva Nemcova (2)
Career Games Played
  • Michelle Snow (402)
  • Chasity Melvin (393)
  • Dominique Canty (380)
  • Leilani Mitchell (367)
  • Muriel Page (354)
Table below shows Top 50 players by Total Win Shares in WNBA History.

1622556516298.png
 
Last edited:
maccca3232 said:
Most without winning a championship series

Career Win Shares.
  • Becky Hammon (45.0)
  • Vickie Johnson (40.5)
  • Angel McCoughtry (37.6)
  • Tina Charles (37.0)
  • Sancho Lyttle (35.8)
Career All-WNBA Teams
  • Tina Charles (8)
  • Angel McCoughtry (6)
  • Becky Hammon, Sophia Young-Malcolm, Courtney Vanderslott, Skylar Diggins-Smith, Teresa Weatherspoon (4)
Career Games Played
  • Becky Hammon (450)
  • Monique Currie (411)
  • Vickie Johnson (410)
  • Michelle Snow (402)
  • Chasity Melvin (393)
Most without appearing in championship series

Career Win Shares
  • Tina Charles (37.0)
  • Chasity Melvin (33.8)
  • Chamique Holdslaw (33)
  • Michelle Snow (31.4)
  • Natalie Williams (29.3)
Career All-WNBA Teams
  • Tina Charles (8)
  • Skylar Diggins-Smith (4)
  • Chamique Holdsclaw & Natalie Williams (3)
  • Liz Cambage & Eva Nemcova (2)
Career Games Played
  • Michelle Snow (402)
  • Chasity Melvin (393)
  • Dominique Canty (380)
  • Leilani Mitchell (367)
  • Muriel Page (354)
Table below shows Top 50 players by Total Win Shares in WNBA History.

View attachment 67726
Expand ...
Extraordinary table! Many thanks...

As a newbie to win shares, the data include longer term players: only Cynthia Cooper has less than 7 seasons in the league. Why is that?
 
FanFromMaine said:
Extraordinary table! Many thanks...

As a newbie to win shares, the data include longer term players: only Cynthia Cooper has less than 7 seasons in the league. Why is that?
Expand ...
Below is extract from Basketball Reference explanation on Win Shares.

Win Shares is a player statistic which attempts to divvy up credit for team success to the individuals on the team.

The more games you play, the more opportunities you have to generate win shares.

I added a couple of different metrics, Total Games Played, All-WNBA and Win Shares, but I also could have also added Total Minutes Played, to provide different perspectives, longevity (GP), awards (All-WNBA) and analytics (WS).

Note: Cooper only played 4 games in her final season at age 40, so really only 4 full seasons.

Table below shows Win Shares at Age for selected WNBA Players.

1622595967718.png
 
Last edited:
.-.
maccca3232 said:
Below is extract from Basketball Reference explanation on Win Shares.

Win Shares is a player statistic which attempts to divvy up credit for team success to the individuals on the team.

The more games you play, the more opportunities you have to generate win shares.

I added a couple of different metrics, Total Games Played, All-WNBA and Win Shares, but I also could have also added Total Minutes Played, to provide different perspectives, longevity (GP), awards (All-WNBA) and analytics (WS).

Note: Cooper only played 4 games in her final season at age 40, so really only 4 full seasons.

Table below shows Win Shares at Age for selected WNBA Players.

View attachment 67753
Expand ...
So Total Win Shares, as its name implies, is an aggregate measure. Got it.

Could you run another table in rank order with:

1. Average wins shares per year, and
2. Number of titles.

It appears that Cynthia Cooper would top this sort having averaged 7 win share per year and having won 4 titles. But it would be interesting to see if average win shares correlates with titles won.

Thanks
 
Angel has never won a title in NCAAs or the pros because she has never been on the best team. In fact, she's been to four WNBA finals, and been swept in all four.

She's lost two finals to Minnesota (who had Moore, Augustus, Fowles, Whalen) and two finals to Seattle (who had Bird and Lauren Jackson; then Bird and Stewart and Lloyd and Howard). It's pretty amazing she made it to three finals with Atlanta, when the second best player on that team was arguably Sancho Lyttle.

The Vegas team last year was the most talented she'd been on, but Seattle was at another level by the playoffs.

It is very tough to win a WNBA title; you need more than one elite player, and sometimes that's not even enough. Angel has done remarkable given the teammates she's been surrounded by.
 
FanFromMaine said:
So Total Win Shares, as its name implies, is an aggregate measure. Got it.

Could you run another table in rank order with:

1. Average wins shares per year, and
2. Number of titles.

It appears that Cynthia Cooper would top this sort having averaged 7 win share per year and having won 4 titles. But it would be interesting to see if average win shares correlates with titles won.

Thanks
Expand ...
So instead of 'Win Shares per year' I have sorted by 'Win Shares per 40' which is calculated as 'Total Win Shares' divided by 'Total Minutes Played' multiplied by 40 minutes to provide you a Win Share per game.

Table below shows Top 50 All-Time (minimum 2250 career minutes)

1622722516179.png
 
Even the greatest players need alot of help to win hardware. Very Good players around them, good coaching, good fit in a system and a nice sprinkling of luck.
 
maccca3232 said:
So instead of 'Win Shares per year' I have sorted by 'Win Shares per 40' which is calculated as 'Total Win Shares' divided by 'Total Minutes Played' multiplied by 40 minutes to provide you a Win Share per game.

Table below shows Top 50 All-Time (minimum 2250 career minutes)

View attachment 67805
Expand ...
Thanks again. Is there significance to the shaded players?
 
eebmg said:
Even the greatest players need alot of help to win hardware. Very Good players around them, good coaching, good fit in a system and a nice sprinkling of luck.
Expand ...
To your list I would to add “stickiness.” Some players seem to attract other good players to be teammates.
 
.-.
FanFromMaine said:
Thanks again. Is there significance to the shaded players?
Expand ...

It looks like the shaded players are currently active. The others have ridden off into the retirement sunset. I find it interesting that Chiney Ogwumike is #11 on this list -- just goes to show that when healthy, she can help her team win. It's a shame that she's been derailed by injuries.

I've been surprised at how highly rated Madam President (Nneka) is on these lists, but just goes to show what a fabulous player she has been. It's a shame she doesn't have much support this year.
 
Lorcan said:
It looks like the shaded players are currently active. The others have ridden off into the retirement sunset. I find it interesting that Chiney Ogwumike is #11 on this list -- just goes to show that when healthy, she can help her team win. It's a shame that she's been derailed by injuries.

I've been surprised at how highly rated Madam President (Nneka) is on these lists, but just goes to show what a fabulous player she has been. It's a shame she doesn't have much support this year.
Expand ...
Thanks...
 
Reviewing the Win Share/40 list, it appears that active bigs dominate. Only Diana, Angel, Epiphanny and Tiffany appear. No Sue!

I’m not sure what to make of this but to say that smaller good players need to attach themselves to good bigs to win championships. No big news that.
 
UPDATED to include 2022 Season. The previous included up to 2020.

Most without winning a championship series

Regular Season Career Win Shares.
  • Becky Hammon (45.0)
  • Tina Charles (41.8)
  • Vickie Johnson (40.5)
  • Angel McCoughtry (37.7)
  • Sancho Lyttle (35.8)
Career All-WNBA Teams
  • (9) Tina Charles
  • (6) Angel McCoughtry, Skylar Diggins-Smith
  • (4) Becky Hammon, Sophia Young-Malcolm, Teresa Weatherspoon, Jonquel Jones
Career Games Played
  • Becky Hammon (450)
  • Monique Currie (411)
  • Vickie Johnson (410)
  • Michelle Snow (402)
  • Leilani Mitchell (395)
  • Chasity Melvin (393)
Most without appearing in championship series

Regular Season Career Win Shares
  • Tina Charles (41.8)
  • Chasity Melvin (33.8)
  • Chamique Holdslaw (33)
  • Michelle Snow (31.4)
  • Natalie Williams (29.3)
Career All-WNBA Teams
  • (9) Tina Charles (9)
  • (3) Chamique Holdsclaw & Natalie Williams
  • (2) Liz Cambage, Eva Nemcova & Arike Oqunbowale
Career Games Played
  • Michelle Snow (402)
  • Leilani Mitchell (395)
  • Chasity Melvin (393)
  • Tina Charles (388)
  • Dominique Canty (380)
  • Muriel Page (354)
Table below shows Top 50 players by Regular Season Total Win Shares in WNBA History.
1663554184662.png
 
What's interesting to me is that a lot of these players who have come close but haven't won one always played on MAJOR underdogs. The Liberty teams from the Comets/Sparks runs and the trio of Atlanta teams were never favorites and quite frankly weren't very good, they benefitted from being in the Eastern conference which was almost always underwhelming. Look at their record compared to the western conference champions:

1997 Houston: 18-10
1997 New York: 17-11 (1st in East)
Houston wins 1-0

1999 Houston: 26-6
1999 New York: 18-14 (1st in East)
Houston wins 2-1

2000 Houston: 27-5
2000 New York: 20-12 (1st in East)
Houston wins 2-0

2002 LA: 25-7
2002 New York: 18-14 (1st in East)
LA wins 2-0

2010 Seattle: 28-6
2010 Atlanta: 19-15 (4th in East)
Seattle wins 3-0

2011 Minnesota: 27-7
2011 Atlanta: 20-14 (3rd in East)
Minnesota wins 3-0

2013 Minnesota: 26-8
2013 Atlanta: 17-17
Minnesota wins 3-0

The west won 15 out of 19 titles before they ditched the conference format. Even since then, in 26 years, 20 of the champions came from the west.

Moreover, to win a title you need to have talented teammates, plain and simple. All of the greats won their titles with loaded rosters and talented teammates who were in their prime (Parker, Taurasi, Moore, Cooper, Jackson, Leslie, etc). The only one who somehow won a title without a stacked roster was Tamika Catchings but she's the exception rather than the norm. Hammon had some brilliant years in San Antonio but never had the teammates to get the job done, Angel never had the talent necessary in Atlanta and was past her prime in Vegas (and her teammates hadn't hit their prime yet). Charles never had strong teammates in New York or Connecitcut and has yet to reach a finals in her 12 years, and Diggins-Smith's teams always seem to underperform or have chemistry issues. Also, all of the NYL greats like TSpoon, Hammon, Lobo, Johnson and Crystal Robinson made several finals but their talent always paled in comparison to the likes of Houston (Swoopes, Cooper, Thompson, Arcain) or the Sparks (Leslie, Milton-Jones, Dixon, Mabika). Ultimately history says you need multiple stars to get the job done, so if you're a star and want to get a title, you need to find your way on a roster with a couple other elite players who can do the heavy lifting to get you there.
 
.-.
bballnut90 said:
1997 Houston: 18-10
1997 New York: 17-11 (1st in East)
Houston wins 1-0
Expand ...
Good research and analysis but one minor point: Houston was in the Eastern Conference in the inagural year. The east was NY, Cleveland, Houston and Charlotte. The west was Phoenix, Utah, LA, and Sacramento. In 1998 Washington and Detroit were added which shifted Houston to the west.
 
WFFL said:
First player that comes to mind is Tina Charles
Expand ...
She will never win a championship, this was her best chance, but isn't willing to be a role player. She hurt the chemistry of a good defensive team, by having to be a starter.
Her offense is not that good anymore, and she is a fair to poor defender.
Seattle needs a new coach and GM, Loyd might end up being the only one left on the team next year.
The only other person under contract is Russell, and who knows if she will be able to play?
 
baggerbob said:
She will never win a championship, this was her best chance, but isn't willing to be a role player. She hurt the chemistry of a good defensive team, by having to be a starter.
Her offense is not that good anymore, and she is a fair to poor defender.
Seattle needs a new coach and GM, Loyd might end up being the only one left on the team next year.
The only other person under contract is Russell, and who knows if she will be able to play?
Expand ...

She could win a championship and likely tries to sign with a team in the hunt next year, but I dont see her winning one as a star player. Her list of possible destinations may be somewhat limited too based on her style of play and leaving Phoenix high and dry. Based on personnel, I dont think a legitimate title contender would be smart to add Charles to the mix (Connecticut/Vegas/New York/potentially Chicago) if they already have a title contending squad. All of those franchises have a PF who is better than Charles at this time and fills a similar role. If Parker leaves Chicago, Charles could slide in but I don't think she makes them a title contender. Tina's always been a volume shooter and realistically will need to be comfortable taking on a reduced role and transition her game to be more efficient and more of a role player if her team will be successful. The other potential destinations include:

Indiana-train wreck franchise, no way she signs here

Atlanta-not a terrible option but unlikely to be a title contender

Washington-could be a good fit alongside EDD, although last time she played there it didn't go well

Dallas-I don't see Tina signing here

Phoenix-definitely not signing here

Minnesota-could be a decent option but they aren't competing for a title

LA-another franchise that's not in the title hunt unless they land a couple big name players in the off season

Seattle-appears to be disbanding after this year and they arent going to be a contender without Stewart


Realistically Phoenix was her best shot on paper but the team was a disaster, and then Seattle made a good push riding Stewart but Charles struggled in the series and they ultimately lost. Curious to see where she ends up next year and if she can be an impact player for a winning team.
 
bballnut90 said:
She could win a championship and likely tries to sign with a team in the hunt next year, but I dont see her winning one as a star player. Her list of possible destinations may be somewhat limited too based on her style of play and leaving Phoenix high and dry. Based on personnel, I dont think a legitimate title contender would be smart to add Charles to the mix (Connecticut/Vegas/New York/potentially Chicago) if they already have a title contending squad. All of those franchises have a PF who is better than Charles at this time and fills a similar role. If Parker leaves Chicago, Charles could slide in but I don't think she makes them a title contender. Tina's always been a volume shooter and realistically will need to be comfortable taking on a reduced role and transition her game to be more efficient and more of a role player if her team will be successful. The other potential destinations include:

Indiana-train wreck franchise, no way she signs here

Atlanta-not a terrible option but unlikely to be a title contender

Washington-could be a good fit alongside EDD, although last time she played there it didn't go well

Dallas-I don't see Tina signing here

Phoenix-definitely not signing here

Minnesota-could be a decent option but they aren't competing for a title

LA-another franchise that's not in the title hunt unless they land a couple big name players in the off season

Seattle-appears to be disbanding after this year and they arent going to be a contender without Stewart


Realistically Phoenix was her best shot on paper but the team was a disaster, and then Seattle made a good push riding Stewart but Charles struggled in the series and they ultimately lost. Curious to see where she ends up next year and if she can be an impact player for a winning team.
Expand ...
Washington is not touching charles with a 10 foot pole . Atlanta and Minny would be the likely options as Dallas has McCowan and no need for charles along with LA still trying to figure out the ogumikes . Seattle may need to keep her if Stewie walks but not sure if Tina wants to stay with the whole "only player to not do an exit interview" on the storms roster.
 
WFFL said:
Washington is not touching charles with a 10 foot pole . Atlanta and Minny would be the likely options as Dallas has McCowan and no need for charles along with LA still trying to figure out the ogumikes . Seattle may need to keep her if Stewie walks but not sure if Tina wants to stay with the whole "only player to not do an exit interview" on the storms roster.
Expand ...
Was there any bad blood when Charles left Washington?
 
.-.
WFFL said:
Washington is not touching charles with a 10 foot pole . Atlanta and Minny would be the likely options as Dallas has McCowan and no need for charles along with LA still trying to figure out the ogumikes . Seattle may need to keep her if Stewie walks but not sure if Tina wants to stay with the whole "only player to not do an exit interview" on the storms roster.
Expand ...
Her attitude is going to make it hard to find anyone who wants to play with her.
She showed she wasn't willing to be a role player to help win a championship.
Having to sit Ezi who was in the running for Defensive player of the year. She was leading the league in blocks, and playing well.
Seattle's defense was top 2 in the league, then Tina started and the defense fell apart.
 
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