Geno messin w KLM's shot?

[pap49cba]

I think mostly he was ragging on the new uniform jinx thing, but I have no doubt that he's a Nike man given the money involved. I would be too.

Hell, his eyeglasses have the swoosh on them...

 

[JRRRJ]

...Now consider how these changes affect a kid like KML who's shot has been so thoroughly practiced and rehearsed into great precision. Introducing a small change into posture results not just into a bad result but consistently bad results as the body struggles to readjust to a new sight picture and shifts in micro mechanics. The most important correction, however, is not to alter her release point but rather the most fundamental one of correcting her posture getting the neck spine and hips back into good erect alignment. Do this and the shot picture is restored to that one refined by years of practice and shot success is very likely restored. Start tinkering with micro corrections like a higher release point, etc. and the road may be long...
Ironically, the impact of these types shifts are probably less noticeable on someone who's shot is less refined and consistent. The reason for this some old errors now find the goal. In contrast the highly precise shot is now consistently off the mark with less likelihood of error achieving the original goal by happenstance.

More later on why the fall away shot and a few others are less affected.

The long-term effect of the micro-changes is somewhat overstated. It's a vast over-simplification to say that they've practiced the same thing over & over again in the past. Those years of practice & hundreds of thousands of shots were not performed under identical conditions -- they encompassed a multitude of venues, physical conditions, mental conditions, different balls, different shoes, etc. An elite player adjusts. The most obvious example I can come up with is the way pro tennis players adjust to the various (and there are many more than just hard, clay and grass) court surfaces and ball types. But the kicker is that the start of the adjustment needs to be conscious and there needs to be some time to perform the adjustment. They need to practice shooting and running under game conditions of equipment so they can feel what adjustment is needed.

But the key for that adjustment to occur quickly is to be conscious that some change is needed, and to initiate the change. Tennis players know the courts & balls are different, so they focus on making the adjustment.

I can state categorically that even an advanced intermediate tennis player (me) notices a need to change stance and hitting point when changing to a different shoe (and they keep discontinuing the models I like, dammit!), thanks to OC's previous postings on the subject. It might have taken me much longer to make the adjustments if I didn't have that in the back of my mind.

OC's comments about the effects of shoe changes in mid-stream are right on target, but don't seem to get attention from the player and coaches.

 

[vtcwbuff]

The long-term effect of the micro-changes is somewhat overstated. It's a vast over-simplification to say that they've practiced the same thing over & over again in the past. Those years of practice & hundreds of thousands of shots were not performed under identical conditions -- they encompassed a multitude of venues, physical conditions, mental conditions, different balls, different shoes, etc. An elite player adjusts. The most obvious example I can come up with is the way pro tennis players adjust to the various (and there are many more than just hard, clay and grass) court surfaces and ball types. But the kicker is that the start of the adjustment needs to be conscious and there needs to be some time to perform the adjustment. They need to practice shooting and running under game conditions of equipment so they can feel what adjustment is needed.

But the key for that adjustment to occur quickly is to be conscious that some change is needed, and to initiate the change. Tennis players know the courts & balls are different, so they focus on making the adjustment.

I can state categorically that even an advanced intermediate tennis player (me) notices a need to change stance and hitting point when changing to a different shoe (and they keep discontinuing the models I like, dammit!), thanks to OC's previous postings on the subject. It might have taken me much longer to make the adjustments if I didn't have that in the back of my mind.

OC's comments about the effects of shoe changes in mid-stream are right on target, but don't seem to get attention from the player and coaches.

I don't play tennis but I think a similar analogy could be made with golf. There is no doubt that a change in equipment (even shoes) has an affect on my golf game and I agree 100% that you have to be aware of the affect and make adjustments. In my case, I try to work it out at the range. In the case of UConn players, I'm going to assume that if there is any shoe impact it gets worked out in practice. A player gets perhaps 30 minutes in a game and, unlike tennis, the shoe might effect performance for only a small fraction of that time.
I'm still in the dark about how much change there is between the different color shoes.

 

[Icebear]

The long-term effect of the micro-changes is somewhat overstated. It's a vast over-simplification to say that they've practiced the same thing over & over again in the past. Those years of practice & hundreds of thousands of shots were not performed under identical conditions -- they encompassed a multitude of venues, physical conditions, mental conditions, different balls, different shoes, etc. An elite player adjusts. The most obvious example I can come up with is the way pro tennis players adjust to the various (and there are many more than just hard, clay and grass) court surfaces and ball types. But the kicker is that the start of the adjustment needs to be conscious and there needs to be some time to perform the adjustment. They need to practice shooting and running under game conditions of equipment so they can feel what adjustment is needed.

But the key for that adjustment to occur quickly is to be conscious that some change is needed, and to initiate the change. Tennis players know the courts & balls are different, so they focus on making the adjustment.

I can state categorically that even an advanced intermediate tennis player (me) notices a need to change stance and hitting point when changing to a different shoe (and they keep discontinuing the models I like, dammit!), thanks to OC's previous postings on the subject. It might have taken me much longer to make the adjustments if I didn't have that in the back of my mind.

OC's comments about the effects of shoe changes in mid-stream are right on target, but don't seem to get attention from the player and coaches.

I agree that the changes do become adapted to long term. However, there is always a period of adjustment and there is always a most mechanically efficient form. The question is are some changes desirable long term or should correction to core form be the first order of work. If indeed KML is now bending more at the waist and is in a less than optimal form compared to the past that is where the first order of attention should be placed.

Dynamic change always functions best when the number of variables needed for adaptation are minimized. Geno himself and Meghan have noted that the players practice specific shots from specific places on the floor in practice and that those are the shots they strive to take in the game, as well as, minimize other shots during the game. Performance is greatly enhanced by rehearsal. That does not mean that other shots cannot be made simply that the statistical measures of performance will suffer when operating outside of the rehearsed spots. This is why players attempt to shoot 3s from particular spot up positions of the floor.

What OC is talking about affects all of the things I was addressing. Ramp angle alters posture, realigning posture alters the sight frame and that affects performance, such as, flattening ball flight below the optimal flight.

Research today has, actually, identified the preferred amount of time for site acquisition and hold before execution. This was part of research into accuracy in golf in a Canadian study. Both too long and too short had negative impacts on performance.

People practicing long hours with terrible form can become quite proficient using bad form that does not mean they are performing as well as they would with proper form. Repetitive practice of even poor form can help its ability to be repeated in competition but it will, also, tend to break down under pressure because it is not the most efficient or mechanically sound method.

 

[rtm5]

Here's the quote from the Courant article:

"Coach was telling me Thursday to get my shot higher to make sure there is less of a chance to come up short.”

Call it what you will, thinking too much, tinkering/over-coaching, but what I see (regardless of the sneaks) is that she is mechanically trying to add loft. Which is a shame considering how pure and effortless her natural release is.

 

[Icebear]

Here's the quote from the Courant article:

"Coach was telling me Thursday to get my shot higher to make sure there is less of a chance to come up short.”

Call it what you will, thinking too much, tinkering/over-coaching, but what I see (regardless of the sneaks) is that she is mechanically trying to add loft. Which is a shame considering how pure and effortless her natural release is.

What you are missing is that it is not Geno messing with her form. It is that her form had already deteriorated resulting in the flat shot.

 

[rtm5]

I'll grant you that she said "Thursday".

But I don't think I'm missing anything. I see a girl meachanically trying to add loft and it's taking her away from her natural release.

This girl had one of the purest strokes I've ever seen.

Only she and the staff know for sure. I do know one thing -- I would not be fooling with her form other than to run the tapes of when she was going good and encouraging her to get back to where she was.

 

[speedoo]

I'll grant you that she said "Thursday".

But I don't think I'm missing anything. I see a girl meachanically trying to add loft and it's taking her away from her natural release.

This girl had one of the purest strokes I've ever seen.

Only she and the staff know for sure. I do know one thing -- I would not be fooling with her form other than to run the tapes of when she was going good and encouraging her to get back to where she was.

Do you really think it is plausible that Geno, with all his experience coaching great shooters, and knowing what a great natural shooter she is, would be "fooling with her form" for no apparent reason?

 

[Icebear]

I'll grant you that she said "Thursday".

But I don't think I'm missing anything. I see a girl meachanically trying to add loft and it's taking her away from her natural release.

This girl had one of the purest strokes I've ever seen.

Only she and the staff know for sure. I do know one thing -- I would not be fooling with her form other than to run the tapes of when she was going good and encouraging her to get back to where she was.

Absolutely agree KML HAD one of the purest strokes I have seen too. That unfortunately has not been true as the season wore on. No her shot has been noticeably flatter for awhile now. It was noted in a recent game thread. Her mechanics deteriorating is the problem. Geno's comments are addressed to the outcome and the desired correction.

 

[phil sampieri]

whenever I'm having a bad day and need a good laugh, I go on this board and read some of the funniest things. Posted re this subject

 

[vtcwbuff]

whenever I'm having a bad day and need a good laugh, I go on this board and read some of the funniest things. Posted re this subject

Sounds like somebody's shoes don't fit.

 

[Sonny44]

whenever I'm having a bad day and need a good laugh, I go on this board and read some of the funniest things. Posted re this subject

Did y'all ever hear the joke about the Foo bird? It's pretty clean.

 

[Icebear]

Did y'all ever hear the joke about the Foo bird? It's pretty clean.

That's not how I remember it.

 

[easttexastrash]

Maybe she needs to watch BG shoot the three. She hasn't missed one all year.

Is it possible that the year is starting to wear her down mentally, and a little physically? Is this just her stiffening up due to the pressure? Early in the season she was the new kid on the team and she was not expected to carry an offensive load. She is now knee-deep into Big East play and it could be a little bit daunting to a young kid.

That big game against Stanford to start the season may have put too much pressure on her to continue to perform as well in every game.

 

[arty155]

whenever I'm having a bad day and need a good laugh, I go on this board and read some of the funniest things. Posted re this subject

-Inspired me to add more Shoo-Goo before running tomorrow.

 

[VAMike23]

I think that the wear and tear and intensity of the longer college season--esp at UCONN--simply means that there are nights at this point in the year when players have a hard time finding their rhythm because everything feels different: their mind, their body, their feel - everything. I agree that on some nights her form has changed slightly (I was posting in those same threads) but I think it will take care of itself indirectly as she continues to gain experience at this level and she will find her natural shooting form more often. this isn't a commentary on Geno's quote in any way, just a belief that it will work itself out on its own. KML is far too bright and too committed to fall into shoddy habits over the long term re: shooting

 

[arty155]

whenever I'm having a bad day and need a good laugh, I go on this board and read some of the funniest things. Posted re this subject

-Oh, then I take it Sir, you didn’t like my thread on Destruction of Free-Throw Ballistic Similitude Caused by Variation of Inflation-Hole Alignment. Why not just say it?


(Seriously, thanks for that link to OC’s outstanding paper, Nan)

 

[Olde Coach]

Here is a link to Olde Coach's treatise on free throws.....

Thanks for posting and providing the link.

That edition of my article was done in 2008. I am just a few weeks away from posting an update that has a lot of new information. A section on shoes and their relationship to balance, accuracy and consistency. A section on myelin, which is very important to the subject and was simply not known 4 or 5 years ago. And a lot of new information on movement of the head -- or preferably non-movement (stillness) of the head. Plus some observations on the best free throw shooters in American (and world) basketball -- Maya included. I have been observing and "taking notes" at hundred's of games since 2008.

I hope you will be able to put this new version into the same "set-up" as the earlier edition.

Thanks again.

OC

 

[meyers7]

whenever I'm having a bad day and need a good laugh, I go on this board and read some of the funniest things. Posted re this subject

Gotta agree with you phil

 

[vtcwbuff]

OC - I'm still trying to find out what shoes the team wears. Do you know? I'm assuming they're Hyperdunk or Hyperzoom but have no proof other than that's what Nike lists as "team" shoes. Does anyone know if the team has changed shoe models mid schedule. I know shoe colors change. Nike tells me that ramp angle can vary by size (duh) but also within a given shoe size. Anybody know how long a shoe lasts before wear affects traction?

Since Nike shoe's can be customized don't you think it's possible that each shoe is individually fitted to suit the player? I'm also still waiting to find out how one determines a shoe's ramp angle from the sidelines. I think you promised me a response to that question last year. Understand, I'll stipulate that a shoe's fit can affect performance, that's obvious. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how you could figure out that was what was causing UConn players streaky shooting.

I did a bit of Googling to try to get a bit smarter re ramp angle and performance. There are lots of runner blogs castigating Nike for their high ramp angles. What I found most informative is that every single blog had a Nike competitor's advertisement alongside the opinion.

 

[boontonbomber]

i fear that kaleena's already thought too much about her shooting. i don't think there's anything worse for a shooter than to start thinking a lot about how they do what they do. she probably has never thought a whole lot about how she does what she does. can't imagine that she ever heard of spine angles , arc of the shot, etc. she made herself a great shooter by doing a whole lot of it, and if she's left alone there's no reason to believe that she won't return to form. the best thing geno and co. can do is leave her alone, just tell her to keep shooting.

 

[Olde Coach]

OC - I'm still trying to find out what shoes the team wears. Do you know? I'm assuming they're Hyperdunk or Hyperzoom but have no proof other than that's what Nike lists as "team" shoes. Does anyone know if the team has changed shoe models mid schedule. I know shoe colors change. Nike tells me that ramp angle can vary by size (duh) but also within a given shoe size. Anybody know how long a shoe lasts before wear affects traction?

Since Nike shoe's can be customized don't you think it's possible that each shoe is individually fitted to suit the player? I'm also still waiting to find out how one determines a shoe's ramp angle from the sidelines. I think you promised me a response to that question last year. Understand, I'll stipulate that a shoe's fit can affect performance, that's obvious. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how you could figure out that was what was causing UConn players streaky shooting.

Buff:

I don't know the model number of the shoes (plural) UConn has been wearing this winter. But I do know they have worn at least four different models. And that's the problem. The base for their shots (balance, coordination, fine tuning of small muscles and large muscles) is changed with every model change.

The complaints about Nike ramp angles are basically about running shoes.They have no relation to basketball.

It is a fact that basketball and soccer shoes have the lowest ramp angle(s) OF ANY SPORT SHOES. This is true regardless of brand. It is an inheritance in the basketball culture from the old canvas Keds and Converse shoes from the 1940's and 50's.

I am not aware of any "customization kits" for changing ramp angles for Nike basketball (or any other) athletic shoes. The shoe companies just don't want to deal with this kind "nuisance". By contrast, New Balance makes basketball shoes (and shoes for nearly all other sports) in AA or AAA to 5E, and sometimes 6E.

The biggest gripe I have with Nike and Adidas (the two biggest names in US college basketball team contracts) is: they don't even make shoes in varying widths. They only make Medium width. Which is either a "C" or usually a "D" width. Have a wide or narrow foot? Tough luck. Nike doesn't care. (And they are ruining lots of kids feet for the rest of their lives.)

Re: "How can I measure ramp angle without having the shoes in my hands, and the appropriate tools?" I can't give you the exact ramp angle in any given shoe. But I can, with great accuracy, tell whether any shoe the kids wear has too much, too little, or just the right ramp angle -- to provide the best fore/aft balance, and the most efficient and powerful athletic movement.

When the whistle blows and the players stop moving, I can see changes and problems in their postures, balance, muscle tension, and fore-aft knee angles. I can see these issues when the kids walk, when they run, and when they shoot. All these things are reflected in the players balance, skeletal angles, spine angles, hip fore-aft positions, and head positions. I have rare skills with this stuff because I have studied it in snow skiing for 50 years. I can see 1/4 and 1/2 degree changes in lateral knee positions watching TV broadcasts from World Cup races in Europe; or studying training videos at home. I invented lateral (canting) and fore-aft balance adjustments in ski boots way back in the '60's; and I have written the two definitive books on this subject that are read world-wide.

Nearly every time that UConn kids change shoe models, I can see the balance and stance adjustments that are affected. (Ice is good at this kind of analysis, too -- largely because he has also been a boot-fitter for alpine skiers. He helped to pay his his way through college working in a ski shop. BTW -- changes of 1/4 degree in lateral knee positions in ski racing can add or subtract a full second or more in race times.

A reasonable understanding of the problems caused by changing shoes simply does not exist in the basketball culture. Runners are far more tuned in -- because their sport is so simple that they can concentrate on these things whether running 400 yards, or 23 miles. So the runners demand options from the shoe companies. There is no equivalent demand from the basketball world. Getting a new pair of Nikes is close to entering heaven for teen agers (male or female) -- whether they are athletes, or just want to be the coolest kid on their block.And if the shoes are free, that's just a huge plus for the kids. It never occurs to a college basketball players that a Nike or Adidas shoe might be something less than perfect.

Compared to running, basketball is a hugely more complex sport -- so the mass of complex mechanics in players' movements "disguises" small BUT VERY SIGNIFICANT changes in shoe designs. Observers have to be able to see through the "static" of many moving body parts to isolate the specific influence of the shoes.

I have 5 long-time friends in different parts of the USA who are master builders of footbeds -- and have been working in multiple sports for 30 years to help athletes achieve optimum balance and power through their legs/footwear. These pedorthists work with National team, professional team, college, high school, and even grade school athletes to "make their shoes work better (or more efficiently)." They work with skates and ski boots, and bicycle shoes/pedals, and a wide variety of sports. They "get" all this stuff. But, sadly you can count on your fingers the number of guys (or girls) who are really good at this stuff.

I could go on; but it's bedtime.

Hope this is of interest to a few open-minded readers.

OC




I did a bit of Googling to try to get a bit smarter re ramp angle and performance. There are lots of runner blogs castigating Nike for their high ramp angles. What I found most informative is that every single blog had a Nike competitor's advertisement alongside the opinion.

 

[Icebear]

i fear that kaleena's already thought too much about her shooting. i don't think there's anything worse for a shooter than to start thinking a lot about how they do what they do. she probably has never thought a whole lot about how she does what she does. can't imagine that she ever heard of spine angles , arc of the shot, etc. she made herself a great shooter by doing a whole lot of it, and if she's left alone there's no reason to believe that she won't return to form. the best thing geno and co. can do is leave her alone, just tell her to keep shooting.

It is not something to which one wants the kids paying attention but is nonetheless something that affects their balance and therefore their potential play. A body in proper alignment and balance for athletic activity is one that functions best. It is a proper area of activity for coaches and staff. Put in inverse terms you do not want to be constantly putting your players into conditions that potentially complicate and undermine performance. The advantage of addressing posture through proper shoes is that it can affect positive change without ongoing effort or thought.

In a perfect world Nike and shoe manufacturers would create shoes with standardized neutral footbeds that could be fitted with orthotics for adjusting things like ramp angle and cant.

The balance of archers building from the ground up with a shoe that sets them in proper static balance. This is so that muscles are at complete rest and non firin. This is important in producing complete relaxation from which a shot can be executed without introducing micro corrections from muscles competing to keep the shooter in balance and reducing efficiency of muscles dedicated to the shot sequence. The difference of an unlimited division world class archer in balance can be seen in the amount tiny vibrations at the end of the stabilizer off the front of the bow as arm bow arm extends towards the target.

A simple test of static balance in one's shoes is to stand eyes closed still and erect in your shoes and to sense how still one can be without having to work to maintain balance without wavering and correcting one's balance?

Now all of this applies only to a sport where the desired posture is one of complete static balance. Basketball is a sport requiring dynamic balance and a position the makes the execution of certain actions most efficient.

 

[boontonbomber]

It is not something to which one wants the kids paying attention but is nonetheless something that affects their balance and therefore their potential play. A body in proper alignment and balance for athletic activity is one that functions best. It is a proper area of activity for coaches and staff. Put in inverse terms you do not want to be constantly putting your players into conditions that potentially complicate and undermine performance. The advantage of addressing posture through proper shoes is that it can affect positive change without ongoing effort or thought.

In a perfect world Nike and shoe manufacturers would create shoes with standardized neutral footbeds that could be fitted with orthotics for adjusting things like ramp angle and cant.

The balance of archers building from the ground up with a shoe that sets them in proper static balance. This is so that muscles are at complete rest and non firin. This is important in producing complete relaxation from which a shot can be executed without introducing micro corrections from muscles competing to keep the shooter in balance and reducing efficiency of muscles dedicated to the shot sequence. The difference of an unlimited division world class archer in balance can be seen in the amount tiny vibrations at the end of the stabilizer off the front of the bow as arm bow arm extends towards the target.

A simple test of static balance in one's shoes is to stand eyes closed still and erect in your shoes and to sense how still one can be without having to work to maintain balance without wavering and correcting one's balance?

Now all of this applies only to a sport where the desired posture is one of complete static balance. Basketball is a sport requiring dynamic balance and a position the makes the execution of certain actions most efficient.

i was not referring to the shoes. there certainly may be something to that, and it's legit to discuss it. i mean coaches talking to her too much above her release, the arc of her shot, etc. if they're not making her think too much about that stuff, then good.