Game Two: PcketnfNiels vs. Tzznandrew

[PcketknfNiels]

So much for one statement and then shutting up. I'm voting against who ever wins in the next round.

Yeah I imagine this is affecting voting some too. Too bad whatif only goes to 1999 apparently, would be fun to see how the analytics would treat this.

 

[hoophuskee]

I'm giving an edge to tzz here but both these two teams are among the best I’ve seen. Very well done by both. I believe Kemba/Hanson are the difference makers.

One note about this game- tz’s team doesn’t need to protect the rim in this confrontation. Kemba can do well enough vs Smith. There isn’t anybody else on pckt’s team that is going to slash much other than Smith. Daniels is a jump shooter. Tate wasn’t a slasher. Neither was Mouring. Mouring’s effectiveness along with Tate’s was there jump shots.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

I'm giving an edge to tzz here but both these two teams are among the best I’ve seen. Very well done by both. I believe Kemba/Hanson are the difference makers.

One note about this game- tz’s team doesn’t need to protect the rim in this confrontation. Kemba can do well enough vs Smith. There isn’t anybody else on pckt’s team that is going to slash much other than Smith. Daniels is a jump shooter. Tate wasn’t a slasher. Neither was Mouring. Mouring’s effectiveness along with Tate’s was there jump shots.

Besides the Hanson nonsense, Ray was very much capable of getting to the rim in college. I think people that just see him now on Miami and on the Celts before forget/don't know that. I have 2 guys who are dominant scorers and both very capable of driving past people.

 

[hoophuskee]

Tony Hanson:


6'5 Tony Hanson made his living on the inside defensively, and between his defensive positioning and his 50% FG, it's likely he played inside on offense as well.

In his career he was inside/outside player. When big men guarded him, he shot from the outside. When small guys guarded him, he posted them down low. HE could play both. But imo you are looking at this way wrong. Why not ask “if he was only about 6’5 then how is he averaging 26 ppg while shooting 52% from the floor when he is going against bigger guys?” Answer: Because he was able to shoot outside too.

And why not ask, “if he was able to shoot such a high percentage and his shot wasn’t very good- why was he shooting 52% - and how is someone so small shooting such a high percentage along with averaging 26 ppg along with averaging 10.5 rbg? Answer: He’s very athletic too.

My point is, if he was predominantly inside- then there would be several games in which inevitably he’d run into some big frontlines to negate his scoring/efficiency/ and rebounds thus overall there’d be games that dropped his fg efficiency/ppg and rebounds. Thus-- at 6’5 how is he such a prolific scorer and rebounds as well as he does if he wasn’t a good shooter or a very good athlete?

The New Orleans Jazz were the team that selected him, and were a newly formed expansion team that had only been in existence for 3 years prior. The Jazz were so desperate for talent that year that they actually chose a female player who declined to even try out for the team, yet Hanson was cut before even playing 1 game with this newly formed franchise. How would a 6'5 interior player who got cut before ever seeing an NBA court by an expansion team that drafted a female player in the same draft fare against guys like Boone and Oriakhi? You be the judge.

During the season – before Tony was drafted the Jazz had five players in double figures – in order in terms of scoring they had Maravich, Goodrich, Nate Williams, Aaron James and Jim McElroy. All five of these players are either gaurds ro small forward. Hanson was a scorer but a half-court scorer. He shouldn’t have been picked by this team. There was no room for him. The team already had scorers at the 1-3 positions.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NOJ/1977.html

The following year they were 25-24 before The Pistol got hurt. Not as bad as you make it cound. In addition – again imo you are looking at it wrong. The fact the organization would even invite a woman shows they weren’t serious about trying to win, doesn’t it? They were looking for flash – and Hanson wasn’t a flash player.

All this probably doesn’t convince – but at least for me it’s what I believe I saw. Thus Hanson has no relationship with Boone or Oriakhi. He's a wing.

 

[hoophuskee]

Besides the Hanson nonsense, Ray was very much capable of getting to the rim in college. I think people that just see him now on Miami and on the Celts before forget/don't know that. I have 2 guys who are dominant scorers and both very capable of driving past people.

You never saw him play. It's fine if you want to call it a nonsense. I'm very crtical of Quimby so I get it. But imo you're way wrong about Hanson.

 

[hoophuskee]

Besides the Hanson nonsense, Ray was very much capable of getting to the rim in college. I think people that just see him now on Miami and on the Celts before forget/don't know that. I have 2 guys who are dominant scorers and both very capable of driving past people.

No Ray wasn;t a slasher.CAN get to the rim is a LOT different than being able ot take advantage as you suggest. He was a super jump shooter and used his size to post at times. He didn't look to bust people off the dribble.
Ray is not what you say. Which is why I say you're wrong when you think your team can take advantage of no shot blocking.

 

[champs99and04]

After reading most of the back-and-fourth, this one still seems like a coin flip. Couple observations:

1. As much as tzz is trying to advertise Kemba's defense, I'm still not sure he's doing him justice as a two-way player. He was a very good defensive player - the best defensive guard in this game, even better than Taliek, IMO - whose impact on that end wasn't as immense as it could have been had he not been such a tireless worker offensively. It should be noted, though, that whenever he confronted a comprably talented guard during that run - Knight and Mack come to mind - they were shut down. Knight was what, 6 of 24 in the final four? Napier had a hand in that, but Kemba was the one guarding him during Kentucky's final possession. People rave about his quickness, but his deceptive strength is what really made him a formidable defender at the college level. He could body up bigger guards and keep them out of the lane. He was also one of the most proficient help-defenders in UConn history. He would come out of nowhere to strip big men, fly from across the court to contest shooters, crash the glass for rebounds, etc. There was a certain voracity, an unrelenting swiftness to Kemba's game that just couldn't be quantified. And his demeanor and infectious personality only encouraged his teammates to play with that same sense of desperation defensively. Jay Bilas put it best: "Kemba almost shames his teammates into playing hard".

2. The gap between Kemba and Ray offensively isn't as big as some of the numbers might suggest. Their scoring averages were virtually identical, but Ray's mind-boggling efficiency - 47/47/81 - has caused some to incorrectly conclude that he was a superior offensive player. The problem with that logic was that Kemba got to the line at a much higher rate, averaging 7.7 free throws per game, a preposterous mark for a college guard. Ray only got to the line slightly over four times per game, and, adjusting for pace, the gap in free throw proficiency might be even larger than those numbers suggest. Kemba and Ray both took around 18 shots per game, but, given free throws negate the field goal attempt, you can pretty much add an additional four shots to Kemba's total and two to Ray's total. Viewed through that scope, Ray put up a virtually identical scoring average on two less shots per game. But is that fair? I don't think so. Ray played with considerably better, and more refined, offensive talent. Before Lamb emerged during the second half of the season, that '11 UConn squad was one of the most egregious one-man shows in program history. Kemba was the only player on that team capable of consistently creating offense off the bounce. He was asked to burden a decidedly unreasonable workload, and improvise late in the clock countless times, and it simply did not matter. For as good as Ray was offensively, Kemba might have been a little bit better. Add defense to the equation, and it's no-contest, Kemba's the best player in the game.

3. Smith/Allen is going to be a nightmare of a duo to deal with.

4. I'm curious to see what sort of role Niels Giffey plays in this match-up. Could he guard Allen? I'm not convinced he couldn't. At the very least, he could guard Daniels. While Daniels went ahead of Giffey in both drafts, I still think there is an argument to be made that Giffey had the better overall season.

5. I thought Oriakhi was a really good value pick in the seventh round. If this exact draft was held in the off-season of 2011, I guarantee Alex would have been selected in the third round, no later than fourth. And, theoretically, that's all that should matter, since we're drafting these players at their peak. Essentially, that 2012 season can be voided. Guys like Amida Brimah being taken ahead of Alex is crazy to me.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

No Ray wasn;t a slasher.CAN get to the rim is a LOT different than being able ot take advantage as you suggest. He was a super jump shooter and used his size to post at times. He didn't look to bust people off the dribble.
Ray is not what you say. Which is why I say you're wrong when you think your team can take advantage of no shot blocking.

Dude, you're legitimately a genius. Ray could score however he wanted in college.

Anyways I'm feeling pretty good I wasted all this time just for you and 28 other dipsh!ts to blow your collective load over Kemba playing with some clown who got cut by a team that drafted a woman.

But 26-10!!! A 6'5 guy grabbing 10 boards is clearly playing inside-out (whoever said this needs to take a lap) and against top competition!

Oh well at least I don't have to be like @tzznandrew and waste time just to lose to Oak. Have fun arguing that kiddo.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

After reading most of the back-and-fourth, this one still seems like a coin flip. Couple observations:

1. As much as tzz is trying to advertise Kemba's defense, I'm still not sure he's doing him justice as a two-way player. He was a very good defensive player - the best defensive guard in this game, even better than Taliek, IMO - whose impact on that end wasn't as immense as it could have been had he not been such a tireless worker offensively. It should be noted, though, that whenever he confronted a comprably talented guard during that run - Knight and Mack come to mind - they were shut down. Knight was what, 6 of 24 in the final four? Napier had a hand in that, but Kemba was the one guarding him during Kentucky's final possession. People rave about his quickness, but his deceptive strength is what really made him a formidable defender at the college level. He could body up bigger guards and keep them out of the lane. He was also one of the most proficient help-defenders in UConn history. He would come out of nowhere to strip big men, fly from across the court to contest shooters, crash the glass for rebounds, etc. There was a certain voracity, an unrelenting swiftness to Kemba's game that just couldn't be quantified. And his demeanor and infectious personality only encouraged his teammates to play with that same sense of desperation defensively. Jay Bilas put it best: "Kemba almost shames his teammates into playing hard".

2. The gap between Kemba and Ray offensively isn't as big as some of the numbers might suggest. Their scoring averages were virtually identical, but Ray's mind-boggling efficiency - 47/47/81 - has caused some to incorrectly conclude that he was a superior offensive player. The problem with that logic was that Kemba got to the line at a much higher rate, averaging 7.7 free throws per game, a preposterous mark for a college guard. Ray only got to the line slightly over four times per game, and, adjusting for pace, the gap in free throw proficiency might be even larger than those numbers suggest. Kemba and Ray both took around 18 shots per game, but, given free throws negate the field goal attempt, you can pretty much add an additional four shots to Kemba's total and two to Ray's total. Viewed through that scope, Ray put up a virtually identical scoring average on two less shots per game. But is that fair? I don't think so. Ray played with considerably better, and more refined, offensive talent. Before Lamb emerged during the second half of the season, that '11 UConn squad was one of the most egregious one-man shows in program history. Kemba was the only player on that team capable of consistently creating offense off the bounce. He was asked to burden a decidedly unreasonable workload, and improvise late in the clock countless times, and it simply did not matter. For as good as Ray was offensively, Kemba might have been a little bit better. Add defense to the equation, and it's no-contest, Kemba's the best player in the game.

3. Smith/Allen is going to be a nightmare of a duo to deal with.

4. I'm curious to see what sort of role Niels Giffey plays in this match-up. Could he guard Allen? I'm not convinced he couldn't. At the very least, he could guard Daniels. While Daniels went ahead of Giffey in both drafts, I still think there is an argument to be made that Giffey had the better overall season.

5. I thought Oriakhi was a really good value pick in the seventh round. If this exact draft was held in the off-season of 2011, I guarantee Alex would have been selected in the third round, no later than fourth. And, theoretically, that's all that should matter, since we're drafting these players at their peak. Essentially, that 2012 season can be voided. Guys like Amida Brimah being taken ahead of Alex is crazy to me.

RE Kemba/Ray offensively:

Kemba played like 7 more MPG than Ray because Rays team was winning by 18PPG. Ray's stats would have been even more ridiculous if he wasn't sitting in a lot of blowouts.

Next time you do this figure out a better system than voting or just do 4 teams or mandate that everyone starts with Oak Kemba Bazz Rip so everyone can be a goober and disrespect the guys who didn't win titles through no fault of their own.

 

[Danzz]

That was some awesome digging in the crate for the Tzz quotes on Ray. I think a lot of this match up comes down to who Tony Hanson actually is. I wish there was footage. I think I would like Tzz's defensive matchup's against you more if he put Niels in for Corny.

Tony Hanson would still be a star if he played today. Only about 6'4", Hanson could rebound and score inside and outside. He wasn't as athletic as say Rudy Gay or some other small forwards but he was tough as hell and very strong for his size. Hanson really was outstanding.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Tony Hanson would still be a star if he played today. Only about 6'4", Hanson could rebound and score inside and outside. He wasn't as athletic as say Rudy Gay or some other small forwards but he was tough as hell and very strong for his size. Hanson really was outstanding.

No he wouldn't. If he had the skills to be a stud now he wouldn't have been cut by the same team that drafted a woman. He was an undersized forward who feasted on weaker competition in the Yankee conference.

 

[hoophuskee]

Dude, you're legitimately a genius. Ray could score however he wanted in college.

Anyways I'm feeling pretty good I wasted all this time just for you and 28 other dipsh!ts to blow your collective load over Kemba playing with some clown who got cut by a team that drafted a woman.

But 26-10!!! A 6'5 guy grabbing 10 boards is clearly playing inside-out (whoever said this needs to take a lap) and against top competition!

Oh well at least I don't have to be like @tzznandrew and waste time just to lose to Oak. Have fun arguing that kiddo.

Okay buddy. Keep clutching your Ray Allen doll. Of course Ray Allen was Michael Jordan, right?

 

[champs99and04]

RE Kemba/Ray offensively:

Kemba played like 7 more MPG than Ray because Rays team was winning by 18PPG. Ray's stats would have been even more ridiculous if he wasn't sitting in a lot of blowouts.

Next time you do this figure out a better system than voting or just do 4 teams or mandate that everyone starts with Oak Kemba Bazz Rip so everyone can be a goober and disrespect the guys who didn't win titles through no fault of their own.

You're making my point for me. Ray played on a loaded team, and as a result, was far less taxed on the court than Kemba. It doesn't take Nate Silver to note that minutes played and shooting percentages are usually inversely related. More to the point, the composition of the '96 team was such that Ray could play to his strengths. The things Ray did best - shooting off the catch, curling off a screen and attacking the basket, side pick and rolls - were emphasized. Meanwhile, "Kemba do something" was a staple of our playbook in '11, especially in the first half of the season (I also think that brief stretch where everybody zoned us was responsible for a major drop in his shooting percentage). I'm not trying to take away from Ray, who was a remarkable player. It's simply worth noting that he was forced into uncomfortable situations under high degrees of distress far less frequently than Kemba, and, as you alluded to, he played on a team that was deeper and better and was thus fresher.

As for the system, I'm open to suggestions. I don't think you'd be complaining though and calling people idiots if your team had won.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Okay buddy. Keep clutching your Ray Allen doll. Of course Ray Allen was Michael Jordan, right?

You'll probably vote for Kemba over Oak too being the 15 year old that you are.

Kids man.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

You're making my point for me. Ray played on a loaded team, and as a result, was far less taxed on the court than Kemba. It doesn't take Nate Silver to note that minutes played and shooting percentages are usually inversely related. More to the point, the composition of the '96 team was such that Ray could play to his strengths. The things Ray did best - shooting off the catch, curling off a screen and attacking the basket, side pick and rolls - were emphasized. Meanwhile, "Kemba do something" was a staple of our playbook in '11, especially in the first half of the season (I also think that brief stretch where everybody zoned us was responsible for a major drop in his shooting percentage). I'm not trying to take away from Ray, who was a remarkable player. It's simply worth noting that he was forced into uncomfortable situations under high degrees of distress far less frequently than Kemba, and, as you alluded to, he played on a team that was deeper and better and was thus fresher.

As for the system, I'm open to suggestions. I don't think you'd be complaining though and calling people idiots if your team had won.

Ray played 40 minutes a game in his 2nd NBA season, and 38 plus minutes 7 times in his NBA career. Guess he must have developed those skills in the NBA though, clearly that has nothing to do with UConn blowing teams out and emptying the bench, right?


And I said this voting sucked in your original thread before I even knew where I'd be drafting or anything else. Putting together the best team =/= picking guys purely to try and cover voting tracks.

As for a better system? Not sure. Whatif only going back to 99 sucks, but otherwise it's just a popularity contest, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Kemba beat Oak, which would be a travesty.