Final Fours vs. Top 10 Recruits | The Boneyard

Final Fours vs. Top 10 Recruits

DefenseBB

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Ok, as I have said on this board, there are many people who make me think/rethink my positions and the last few days in my dialogue with our logical and measured Tenn fan-Stwainfan on McDonald's AA and coaching had me do some HoopGurlz research. I used the last 10 years of HoopGurlz data from 2007-2016 (in 2008 Maya Moore was a Freshman) and compared it to the Final Fours from 2008-17. I then looked at the Top Rank player, top 5 ranked and top 10 ranked and I also adjusted for Transfers.

Some surprising numbers, in 40 slots for FF (10x4) only 16 schools went. UConn-10, Stanford-7 and ND-5 dominate.

Top 10 talent, of the 100 players (10 yrs. top 10) only 37 schools were represented and some lost them to transfers which is why a 0 is listed below (except in Washington/Syracuse's case as they made the FF without a T10 player) Example-Kentucky has had 1 T10 player-Linnae Harper who transferred to OSU so Kentucky is on the list with 0

Tennessee leads the way with 12 players and only 1 FF. Duke had 12 players but lost 2 Top 5 in Salvadores/Jones so has a net 10 T10 and has no Final Four appearances (sorry Triad).

Upside is Tara has 7 FF's and only 4 Top 10 players. That is impressive coaching....

Last point for you-top line Connecticut 10 final fours, 5 top ranked players, 6 players in top 5 revised (deduct EDD, add in Mo, Crystal Dangerfield) and they have had 10 players ranked in the top 10 (had 11 but EDD left). Here's the numbers so enjoy and let the dialogue begin:

upload_2018-2-1_0-25-0.png
 
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Oh man the chart looked good when I was composing the thread but after posting, it is difficult to read.

Nan- help! How can I post an excel sheet?
 

EricLA

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You hit on a great point - teams like Tenn have 2/3 of their team as McD AA's BUT several of those kids were not top 10. Even more important are the kids who are top 5. In a way it's like the difference between Coombs and Walker. UCONN has kids who were ranked in the top 3 of Samuelson, Danger, and Walker. Collier was top 5 and I think one service still had Gabby as #2 even tho she lost 2 years of HS to injuries. We all know if Nurse had been "ranked" coming out of HS she'd have been for sure top 10, and maybe top 5.

Point is UCONN has a bunch of kids who were top 5 coming out of HS. 4 to be exact. That's WAY better than a team who lands 10 top 20 kids over 4 years, but none of whom are top 5 recruits. They may be a really solid team, but they won't be as good as a team like UCONN with higher rated impact players.

I don't know the composite ranking of each player, but next year will look something like this:
Samuelson - #1, Collier #5, Stevens should have been rated way higher
Danger - #3
Walker - #1, Coombs #15
Williams - #1, ONO - #5

There may be teams with more HS AA's, but I don't think there are any with a plethora of more highly rated players...
 

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There's probably a more elegant solution, but I would use the snipping tool to screen capture the sheet then copy-paste the image.
You're a good man! I also thinks this chart points out how both Muffett and Tara do an outstanding job coaching with less talent than many others.
 

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You hit on a great point - teams like Tenn have 2/3 of their team as McD AA's BUT several of those kids were not top 10. Even more important are the kids who are top 5. In a way it's like the difference between Coombs and Walker. UCONN has kids who were ranked in the top 3 of Samuelson, Danger, and Walker. Collier was top 5 and I think one service still had Gabby as #2 even tho she lost 2 years of HS to injuries. We all know if Nurse had been "ranked" coming out of HS she'd have been for sure top 10, and maybe top 5.

Point is UCONN has a bunch of kids who were top 5 coming out of HS. 4 to be exact. That's WAY better than a team who lands 10 top 20 kids over 4 years, but none of whom are top 5 recruits. They may be a really solid team, but they won't be as good as a team like UCONN with higher rated impact players.

I don't know the composite ranking of each player, but next year will look something like this:
Samuelson - #1, Collier #5, Stevens should have been rated way higher
Danger - #3
Walker - #1, Coombs #15
Williams - #1, ONO - #5

There may be teams with more HS AA's, but I don't think there are any with a plethora of more highly rated players...
Eric, I grasp your interpretation-however my list is from HoopGurlz and only shows top 10, not top 20. Tenn had 12 top 10 players and 9 in the top 5. Napheesa was #6 as was Tuck. Gabby was 14 in HG and 18 in Prsopect Nation. PN did not rank Kia but HG did at #33. Next year UConn will have 5 top 5-KLS, Crystal Dangerfield, MW, ONO, CW.

This also reinforces the claim Geno gets all the best kids. He does AND HE MAKES THE MOST OF IT by making FF and winning titles AND PUTTING MORE PLAYERS IN PRO BALL THAN ANYONE ELSE.

Texas and Baylor also have a significant jump in talent next year. I have the data and maybe over the weekend I will show only the last 5 years.
 
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My quick takes:

- UConn does the most with the most
- ND does a lot with a lot
- Tara does an incredible job with what she gets
- Baylor, Texas and Rutgers underperform with the talent they get
- Tennessee and Duke recruit great but massively underperform
- T5 and T1 are hugely important - The "best" players are more important than lots of "really good" players
- UConn really does get the best players
 

nwhoopfan

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Looks like a lot of work, thanks for posting this.

How about some major props to Syracuse, Oregon St., Washington and Mississippi St. for all making a Final 4 w/ zero top 5 or top 10 ranked HS recruits.....+Oklahoma

edited--and LSU for doing it twice...but Big Syl wasn't top 10 coming out of HS, really?


edited again...this shows Oregon St. w/ one top 10, is that already counting transfer Destiny Slocum, who hasn't taken the floor for OSU yet? I know for a fact they had no top 10 players on their FF team.
 

bballnut90

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Ok, as I have said on this board, there are many people who make me think/rethink my positions and the last few days in my dialogue with our logical and measured Tenn fan-Stwainfan on McDonald's AA and coaching had me do some HoopGurlz research. I used the last 10 years of HoopGurlz data from 2007-2016 (in 2008 Maya Moore was a Freshman) and compared it to the Final Fours from 2008-17. I then looked at the Top Rank player, top 5 ranked and top 10 ranked and I also adjusted for Transfers.

Some surprising numbers, in 40 slots for FF (10x4) only 16 schools went. UConn-10, Stanford-7 and ND-5 dominate.

Top 10 talent, of the 100 players (10 yrs. top 10) only 37 schools were represented and some lost them to transfers which is why a 0 is listed below (except in Washington/Syracuse's case as they made the FF without a T10 player) Example-Kentucky has had 1 T10 player-Linnae Harper who transferred to OSU so Kentucky is on the list with 0

Tennessee leads the way with 12 players and only 1 FF. Duke had 12 players but lost 2 Top 5 in Salvadores/Jones so has a net 10 T10 and has no Final Four appearances (sorry Triad).

Upside is Tara has 7 FF's and only 4 Top 10 players. That is impressive coaching....

Last point for you-top line Connecticut 10 final fours, 5 top ranked players, 6 players in top 5 revised (deduct EDD, add in Mo, Crystal Dangerfield) and they have had 10 players ranked in the top 10 (had 11 but EDD left). Here's the numbers so enjoy and let the dialogue begin:

View attachment 28213

From the data, I think the safe conclusions are:
1. The recruiting job UCONN has done is FAR superior to anyone else. If you extend the years to include one year earlier and one year later, UCONN would have 7 number 1 recruits. All of his title teams have had at least 2 players who were #1 recruits. UCONN has been the #1 overall seed in the NCAA tournament in 8 of the last 10 years and has won 6 titles in that time frame.

2. #1 recruits provide a massive advantage for teams that land them. The only #1 recruits who haven't won a title or played in multiple Final Fours are EDD, Cox, and Russell. Going further back to 2000, every #1 recruit besides those 3 and Brittany Hunter has played in multiple Final Fours and/or won a championship. Cox will likely be off of this list when her career is done. Compare that to results for the #2 or #3 overall recruits and I bet it's drastically different.

3. Tennessee has horribly underachieved this decade with all of the talent they've had. A lot of players will show great promise as freshmen and then just don't improve. We've consistently seen this under Holly with Meighan Simmons, Bashaara Graves, Ariel Massengale, Diamond Deshields, etc. Ironically, Russell and Nared are two of Holly's best success stories, and Nared is really struggling as of late. Tennessee's current freshmen class is as talented a class they've had in years, and I think most Tennessee fans are fearful that the talent will go to waste under Warlick.

4. Baylor, Ohio State, and Duke are also major underachievers. Baylor landed arguably the most prominent recruit from the last ten years and was only able to get 1 title out of it. They've also had extremely talented teams the last few years and couldn't get over the hump. Duke has had a ton of talent but hasn't been able to capitalize. Poor coaching and team dynamics despite having several high profile recruits come through Durham. Ohio State hasn't had high expectations like Duke and Baylor, but they've never come close to sniffing the Final Four.

5. Tara and Muffett are clearly the most overachieving coaches on this list. Both have had great results without extremely talented rosters. When they've had talent, they've done exceptionally well and have formed phenomenal teams. Stanford's best squads were in 2010 and 2011 when they had a combination of the Ogwumikes, Appel, Pederson and Pohlen. Notre Dame's best were in 2013, 2014, and 2015 with McBride, Diggins, Loyd, Achonwa and Turner. 2010 Stanford and 2014 Notre Dame likely have perfect seasons if there wasn't UCONN. Both programs haven't been landing top 5 players which means they may be on a downward turn in the coming seasons unless they start landing top players again.
 

nwhoopfan

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Stanford's best squads were in 2010 and 2011 when they had a combination of the Ogwumikes, Appel, Pederson and Pohlen.

I think you should expand that time frame by a couple of years so you can include the end of Wiggins' career. She missed playing w/ the Ogwumikes but the others listed above were there, plus Jillian Harmon who had a solid career. Their string of Final 4's began in '08 and included a runner up finish (they beat you know who in the semi final, much to the chagrin of most of the posters on this site). Wiggins entered before the 2007 class that is the beginning of the data for the table above, but the Final 4 she played a pivotal role in attaining is being counted. Stanford had nobody remotely as dynamic and talented as her in the backcourt during the entire Ogwumike era.
 
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From the data, I think the safe conclusions are:
1. The recruiting job UCONN has done is FAR superior to anyone else. If you extend the years to include one year earlier and one year later, UCONN would have 7 number 1 recruits. All of his title teams have had at least 2 players who were #1 recruits. UCONN has been the #1 overall seed in the NCAA tournament in 8 of the last 10 years and has won 6 titles in that time frame.

2. #1 recruits provide a massive advantage for teams that land them. The only #1 recruits who haven't won a title or played in multiple Final Fours are EDD, Cox, and Russell. Going further back to 2000, every #1 recruit besides those 3 and Brittany Hunter has played in multiple Final Fours and/or won a championship. Cox will likely be off of this list when her career is done. Compare that to results for the #2 or #3 overall recruits and I bet it's drastically different.

3. Tennessee has horribly underachieved this decade with all of the talent they've had. A lot of players will show great promise as freshmen and then just don't improve. We've consistently seen this under Holly with Meighan Simmons, Bashaara Graves, Ariel Massengale, Diamond Deshields, etc. Ironically, Russell and Nared are two of Holly's best success stories, and Nared is really struggling as of late. Tennessee's current freshmen class is as talented a class they've had in years, and I think most Tennessee fans are fearful that the talent will go to waste under Warlick.

4. Baylor, Ohio State, and Duke are also major underachievers. Baylor landed arguably the most prominent recruit from the last ten years and was only able to get 1 title out of it. They've also had extremely talented teams the last few years and couldn't get over the hump. Duke has had a ton of talent but hasn't been able to capitalize. Poor coaching and team dynamics despite having several high profile recruits come through Durham. Ohio State hasn't had high expectations like Duke and Baylor, but they've never come close to sniffing the Final Four.

5. Tara and Muffett are clearly the most overachieving coaches on this list. Both have had great results without extremely talented rosters. When they've had talent, they've done exceptionally well and have formed phenomenal teams. Stanford's best squads were in 2010 and 2011 when they had a combination of the Ogwumikes, Appel, Pederson and Pohlen. Notre Dame's best were in 2013, 2014, and 2015 with McBride, Diggins, Loyd, Achonwa and Turner. 2010 Stanford and 2014 Notre Dame likely have perfect seasons if there wasn't UCONN. Both programs haven't been landing top 5 players which means they may be on a downward turn in the coming seasons unless they start landing top players again.
Dont forget Ruth Riley and Nieles Ivey 2001 NCs.
 

HuskylnSC

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A great chart. I would recommend including top players from 2004 through 2015 and then the results from 2007 to 2016. That would provide a more complete picture. Leaving off the 2016 players would provide them with a margin to create an impact for the team. i.e., Many top 5 freshmen don't play more than 20 minutes a game and therefor are unfairly linked as not getting the team to a FF.
 

CBus13

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edited--and LSU for doing it twice...but Big Syl wasn't top 10 coming out of HS, really?

I had the same question, but then I remembered that the OP mentioned that 2008 is when they started their tracking of recruits, which was when Maya was a freshmen, and at that time Sylvia (#2 in her class out of high school and only behind Candace Parker) was already a senior and approaching her 4th final four with LSU. So, Sylvia and her 6? classmates wouldn't count.

Krystal Forthan, who was the number 5 player in the class, would have been the only recruit LSU counted towards their recruit total but she "transferred" to West Virginia but never enrolled and quit basketball to pursue modeling and then transferred to the Academy of Art and then to Wayland Baptist University.
 
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Nothing but the facts, sure drives the point home. Thanks for your good work.
 

DefenseBB

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I think you should expand that time frame by a couple of years so you can include the end of Wiggins' career. She missed playing w/ the Ogwumikes but the others listed above were there, plus Jillian Harmon who had a solid career. Their string of Final 4's began in '08 and included a runner up finish (they beat you know who in the semi final, much to the chagrin of most of the posters on this site). Wiggins entered before the 2007 class that is the beginning of the data for the table above, but the Final 4 she played a pivotal role in attaining is being counted. Stanford had nobody remotely as dynamic and talented as her in the backcourt during the entire Ogwumike era.
My intent was to go back to Taurasi but I could not get any recruiting data prior to 2007 from the internet-if anyone has it, please advise where I can access and I will continue the research.

As I said, I also have the 2017 and 2018 data but my premise was to link recruiting to FF's so Megan and Chrystal have not had their first tournaments yet and thus those years have been excluded.
 

EricLA

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3. Tennessee has horribly underachieved this decade with all of the talent they've had. A lot of players will show great promise as freshmen and then just don't improve. We've consistently seen this under Holly with Meighan Simmons, Bashaara Graves, Ariel Massengale, Diamond Deshields, etc. Ironically, Russell and Nared are two of Holly's best success stories, and Nared is really struggling as of late. Tennessee's current freshmen class is as talented a class they've had in years, and I think most Tennessee fans are fearful that the talent will go to waste under Warlick.

5. Tara and Muffett are clearly the most overachieving coaches on this list. Both have had great results without extremely talented rosters. When they've had talent, they've done exceptionally well and have formed phenomenal teams. Stanford's best squads were in 2010 and 2011 when they had a combination of the Ogwumikes, Appel, Pederson and Pohlen. Notre Dame's best were in 2013, 2014, and 2015 with McBride, Diggins, Loyd, Achonwa and Turner. 2010 Stanford and 2014 Notre Dame likely have perfect seasons if there wasn't UCONN. Both programs haven't been landing top 5 players which means they may be on a downward turn in the coming seasons unless they start landing top players again.
Nice post. Largely agree with just a few comments on the stuff I quoted above: regarding #3 - I think you'd have to add Meme Jackson as a success story - a starter at SG/PG this season, she was only ranked 49 by HG and seems to be playing really well.

You mentioned Tenn underperforming over the past 10 years but Holly has only been the HC for 6-7 years. I realize Pat's disease may well have affected her towards the end, but did you mean to say that she was underachieving and not developing talent her last 3 seasons?

If you look at the number of top 5-6 recruits in the past 5 cycles it looks something like this:

UCONN and Texas both with 6
Tenn 3
ND and Baylor 2
L'ville, Oregon, MSU, aTm, MD, FSU, SC, UCLA and OSU all with 1 player each.

In a way that sort of disproves the comment by UCONN fans that UCONN doesn't get ALL the best players. Well... we may not get all of them, but we have more than any other program not named Texas. For ND I included transfer in Shephard and deducted transfer out Boley. For Tenn I included Russell who was a RS from the class before Nared, who was also top 5-6 along with Westbrook.
 

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My intent was to go back to Taurasi but I could not get any recruiting data prior to 2007 from the internet-if anyone has it, please advise where I can access and I will continue the research.

You put plenty enough work into this already! My post wasn't directed at you. Another poster said Stanford's most talented teams were 2010 and 2011. I was merely saying I would include their 2008 team w/ Wiggins as a Sr. in the discussion of their most talented squads.
 

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L'ville, Oregon, MSU, aTm, MD, FSU, SC, UCLA and OSU all with 1 player each.

I mentioned this earlier. The OSU player has to be transfer Destiny Slocum, who is sitting out this year and has not yet ever taken the floor for the Beavers in a game. So in essence they've had 0 top 10 players during the period being looked at.
 

EricLA

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I mentioned this earlier. The OSU player has to be transfer Destiny Slocum, who is sitting out this year and has not yet ever taken the floor for the Beavers in a game. So in essence they've had 0 top 10 players during the period being looked at.
Actually it was Kelsey Mitchell... ;)
 

bballnut90

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Nice post. Largely agree with just a few comments on the stuff I quoted above: regarding #3 - I think you'd have to add Meme Jackson as a success story - a starter at SG/PG this season, she was only ranked 49 by HG and seems to be playing really well.

You mentioned Tenn underperforming over the past 10 years but Holly has only been the HC for 6-7 years. I realize Pat's disease may well have affected her towards the end, but did you mean to say that she was underachieving and not developing talent her last 3 seasons?

If you look at the number of top 5-6 recruits in the past 5 cycles it looks something like this:

UCONN and Texas both with 6
Tenn 3
ND and Baylor 2
L'ville, Oregon, MSU, aTm, MD, FSU, SC, UCLA and OSU all with 1 player each.

In a way that sort of disproves the comment by UCONN fans that UCONN doesn't get ALL the best players. Well... we may not get all of them, but we have more than any other program not named Texas. For ND I included transfer in Shephard and deducted transfer out Boley. For Tenn I included Russell who was a RS from the class before Nared, who was also top 5-6 along with Westbrook.

Jackson is a lot better than she was last year, but if she's a top success story for Holly, that's a bad sign. In Holly's defense, I thought she did a fantastic job with Isabelle Harrison before the ACL.

I'd consider 2012 as Holly's team more than Pat's based on how involved Holly was vs. Pat. Holly would lead huddles and seemed to be in charge. Pat definitely wasn't fully there that year.

I actually thought Tennessee and Pat did a great job in 2010 and 2011. Going into the tournament, they were expected to make the Final Four but were upset by a Griner led Baylor team and a Notre Dame team who ended Maya Moore's career. Both games were competitive and Tennessee battled. No shame in either loss. Both years they were #1 seeds and went 32-3 and 34-3....quite a bit different than modern day where Tennessee has lost 4 of their last 6 games and is trying to avoid their third consecutive double digit loss season. Players like Stricklen and Johnson were standouts both seasons and made big improvements under Pat. I thought Cain did too--she was exceptional in 2010 before getting injured. Brewer made big strides too before the weird candle stick injury. Bjorklund never developed into the player I hoped she'd become, and Baugh's injuries really held her back. In 2009 it's fair to say they underachieved, but her roster was literally all freshmen, a sophomore and a RS senior. They graduated 5 starters and lost 2 projected starters (McMahan and Baugh) in the offseason. It was an ugly season. I was impressed with how much better Tennessee was in 2010 and 2011 with essentially the same roster. So to answer that question, no I don't think Pat was underachieving her last 3 years of coaching.

Any way the recruiting rankings are analyzed, I think UCONN comes out solidly ahead of any other program. There are almost always 2 number 1 recruits on the team along with several other top players.

Possibly the biggest factor that hasn't been pointed out is that UCONN's top recruits all have a clear path for playing time at UCONN. There's almost always a perfect void for them to fill in either their freshman or sophomore seasons, and in turn they become double figure scorers by their sophomore season. If you look at the last several top 5 kids, you have:
Dangerfield who slid into Chong's role as a sophomore, became a double figure scorer
Collier who slid into Tuck's role as a sophomore, became a 20ppg scorer
KLS who slid into KML's role as a 3pt shooter, not sure if she was over 10 as a frosh but averaged 20ppg as a sophomore
Jefferson who took over PG duties as a sophomore, double digit scorer
Tuck who took replaced Dolson in the front court...different role than Dolson, but became a double digit scorer as a RS soph
Nurse who took over Hartley's role as the combo guard...averaged close to 10ppg her first 2 years.

Next year Walker likely slides into a starting role and will be averaging double digits. In 2019-20, C. Williams likely steps into the starting lineup with the graduation of KLS, and ONO starts in the front court with the graduation Stevens/Collier. It's great planning by Geno and a great way to maximize the effectiveness of his players. Geno recruits some players who will likely never be starters or major contributors (ex. Irwin/Bent) but will be good teammates and hard workers to help push the top players. I'm guessing these players are great for keeping intensity high and the overall vibe positive. I'd much rather have that environment on the bench than having top 10 players po'd that they aren't getting playing time.

On the flip side, at Texas, sure they're loaded up with top 5 kids, but it's not balanced. You have the #4 overall recruit as a third string PG and the #3 overall recruit who can't break the rotation. Patterson has Sutton (2016 #6 PG) and the reigning Big 12 POY(McCarty) ahead of her.

Boothe has been a bust so far and seems to have her own battles, but she also is competing against RS Jr White (2014 #7) and Holmes (2016 #2) for playing time. Next year she'll be battling with those 2, plus Collier and Prince. At least 2 top 10 kids will not make the rotation. They have more top 10 players than anyone, but I don't think having Patterson/Boothe on the team is necessarily a great asset if both are on the bench and potentially not pleased with playing time.



Baylor and SC have also overloaded their frontcourt at times with good players, and Tennessee did too when they had Harrison/Graves/Russell all competing. Interestingly, SC and Tennessee both looked better once they lost their top center, Coates and Harrison. It allowed better spacing offensively for SC and Davis became much more effective in their new system. Same thing at Tennessee but it was Graves who shined in Harrison's absence. Actually, same at Baylor too...Davis was a much more effective player without a physical big like Brown playing. The only programs that seem to usually recruit well without overloading certain positions are Notre Dame, Connecticut and Stanford. You almost never see these programs overload their roster with top 10 kids. UCONN can overload their roster with players in the 10-50 range, but those players usually find a role or end up transferring out.


And last comment--Michigan State technically has 2 players if you count Taya Reimer (and Sidney Cooks).
 
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Great job! Tara/Stanford really have done a great job with less while UTenn and Duke look terrible with their richness.
 

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