Feds uncover large-scale college entrance exam cheating plot

[Robertelamin]

2 comments on this

The value of a college degree is going down IMO. My friend, his father and grandfather both graduated from the same engineering school

Grandfather's first job covered his entire college bill with 6 months salary
His father covered his entire bill with 1 year's salary
My friend covered his entire college bill with 2 years salary. (1985)
Now...college cost 280k...how many years to earn that as a new grad? If you factor in student loan costs that compound that number, 280 could easily become 350

College tuition is a scam....another friend's kid is at a school where he pays full freight...but 1/2 of the kids are going almost for free....how does that make sense? It's another tax/wealth distribution model.

Well @upstater has to feed his family too.

 

[the Q]

Honestly as someone who is <10 years removed from this game, the thing I've realized is that once you reach a certain threshold of school "quality", all that really matters is how well you do when you're there. Sure, a 3.0 at MIT is perceived much more favorably than the same at UConn, but by and large you control your own fate. Now, that first job out of school might not be "elite", like Goldman or Mckinsey by nature of them only hiring from a select few schools, but 1) if you aren't a status-seeking tool you can totally find quality jobs if you did well in college (in the right major and 2) if you did well in undergrad you can then get into these prestigious places for grad school and just saved a bunch of money and stress.

Or just go to those prestigious firms from your first job rather than it being your first job

 

[LIuconn]

Kinda bummed UConn's not on this list

 

[storrsroars]

You sent your PSAT scores to schools with your college application?

That's how I recall it working back in 1973 - colleges received your scores. No application. I don't recall exactly what the process was, but I heard back from a number of schools that I never applied to. Pretty sure it was as simple as checking a box that gave permission for schools to see your scores.

Who knows, I was drunk first time I took the SATs too. I don't know why they always scheduled those tests on Saturday mornings

 

[storrsroars]

Umm the Naval Academy (and all service academies) are totally tuition free...

You're missing the point. I was at best a C student and I was given an offer on the basis of one test in which I was momentarily Puerto Rican.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Umm the Naval Academy (and all service academies) are totally tuition free...

You still have to apply and if you don't complete your degree, under certain circumstances, you're on the hook for reimbursement.

You get letters from the academies saying they're interested in you and letter when you are accepted.

 

[mussels]

A number of big city schools have dramatically raised their admissions profile from prior generations as urban living becomes more attractive

Also, at least one non-big city school seems to be trying to actively recruit the not-so-bright by convincing them that Times Square is in Storrs' backyard.

 

[uconngb]

That's interesting. Didn't know that. Has there been a big shift in recent years or has it always been competitive? I've always thought of it as the Florida St of the west coast, but it appears my perceptions were way off.

It is generally regarded as a top 25 school now. About on par w Georgetown (where my other daughter went).

 

[HooperScooper]

If someone has a child that has a dream school and doesn't get admitted I have a suggestion. Have the kid enroll another school that is a notch below(USC>UCLA).

I always thought UCLA was higher rated and harder to get into than USC.

 

[Travelman6]

Feds uncover large-scale college entrance exam cheating plot
Yale...

 

[QDOG5]

A quick google search says they are basically a tie on admission standards. My apologies to any Bruins out there. I'm pretty sure Bill Walton reads the Boneyard.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

I always thought UCLA was higher rated and harder to get into than USC.

Ratings seem to be fairly subjective. UCLA also has about 12k more undergrads. My sense from living out here for a decade or so is that UCLA is considered academically more rigorous, a UCLA degree travels better outside of the state of California, but the USC alumni network is more formidable in-state.

 

[UconnU]

My brother went to USD. He was a good student, not great, surprised that someone needed to be bribed to get in there. Their acceptance rate is well north of 50%.

 

[upstater]

My brother went to USD. He was a good student, not great, surprised that someone needed to be bribed to get in there. Their acceptance rate is well north of 50%.

USD or Cal San Diego? Cal SD is a lot more stringent than that.

 

[whaler11]

Honestly as someone who is <10 years removed from this game, the thing I've realized is that once you reach a certain threshold of school "quality", all that really matters is how well you do when you're there. Sure, a 3.0 at MIT is perceived much more favorably than the same at UConn, but by and large you control your own fate. Now, that first job out of school might not be "elite", like Goldman or Mckinsey by nature of them only hiring from a select few schools, but 1) if you aren't a status-seeking tool you can totally find quality jobs if you did well in college (in the right major and 2) if you did well in undergrad you can then get into these prestigious places for grad school and just saved a bunch of money and stress.

as someone who works with mckinsey constantly... its funny to think they are some big landing spot for the elite

its like working with robots who say nothing but ‘does that resonate with you’

yes this workflow document is really resonating... i feel it in my soul

 

[auggie22]

as someone who works with mckinsey constantly... its funny to think they are some big landing spot for the elite

its like working with robots who say nothing but ‘does that resonate with you’

yes this workflow document is really resonating... i feel it in my soul

This was funny, and I normally don’t think the synthesis step is a laughing matter.

 

[UconnU]

USD or Cal San Diego? Cal SD is a lot more stringent than that.

University of San Diego.

 

[J187Money]

We may sidetrack this thread, but I've come to agree with you. In fact, I think that kids will do fine at a "good school" (non-elite) even with specific intentions you mentioned in your post. I went to two good, not elite, public universities. It may have been a bit harder, but I've done fine and had opportunities to do even better had I wanted. Some of my worst employees have gone to elite schools.

I should qualify what I meant by "good schools." I was being a bit dramatic. I was really referring to elite schools. I am surprised how tough schools have gotten across the board. It seems to have trickled down from the elite to other schools that I'm shocked have become so difficult to get into.

I, like many parents, started by wanting my kids to get into an elite school. I wanted the best for them, and I'm sure some of it was my pride/ego. I'd still love for that to happen, if it works out for them. I'm not going to stop them from trying to do their best, and I'll prod them if I don't feel they are working hard enough, but I won't get obsessed and I don't want them to work themselves into oblivion. I have friends that disagree with me. They are driving their kids hard. It's costing them a lot of money and I hope their kids don't burn out.

I was a top student - and almost everyone I knew went Ivy or equivalent. With my grades/scores/etc - I could have done the same - but finances dictated that I did not. I went to UCONN under duress. And it didn't hurt me at all. I ultimately got an Ivy league MBA - but what I learned is that if you get good grades at any good school you can get a good job - and then it is on you to perform. I also work in NYC with lots of people that are pressing their kids / spending $40K/year on private high schools etc and I'm just choosing not to play. My kids go to public school and I've basically told them that I will pay for college as long as I see the value there. My older son got into UCONN. He wanted to run and ended up going to a private school outside Boston. He also got $25K/year in academic scholarships - so I said fine - net it costs me about the same as UCONN or maybe a little more. He is super happy, even though it is objectively a "worse" school than UCONN. But his grades are great and he is happy and he loves running so it is a win/win. And if you told me that I would be sending him to a private catholic d3 school I would have bet the farm against it, and here we are.

There are exceptions, but generally people end up where they are supposed to be. Smart, driven people will be successful no matter where they go to school - or even if they don't go to school at all.

 

[J187Money]

Honestly as someone who is <10 years removed from this game, the thing I've realized is that once you reach a certain threshold of school "quality", all that really matters is how well you do when you're there. Sure, a 3.0 at MIT is perceived much more favorably than the same at UConn, but by and large you control your own fate. Now, that first job out of school might not be "elite", like Goldman or Mckinsey by nature of them only hiring from a select few schools, but 1) if you aren't a status-seeking tool you can totally find quality jobs if you did well in college (in the right major and 2) if you did well in undergrad you can then get into these prestigious places for grad school and just saved a bunch of money and stress.

Agree 100%. My 2nd job was Goldman. Which of course made it super easy for me to get into a Ivy League MBA program. The key is studying something useful and getting a good 1st job. If you do good work at a quality organization you can go anywhere from there.

 

[CL82]

Umm the Naval Academy (and all service academies) are totally tuition free...

Kind of tough to nail that down without the required nomination letter from a congressman, senator or the VP.

 

[Waquoit]

One these brats said, “I don’t know how much of school I’m going to attend... “But I do want the experience of game days, partying…” She paused. “I don’t really care about school, as you guys all know.”

 

[businesslawyer]

The Willkie Farr partner lives in Greenwich. I think I've spoken to him over the phone a few times over the years, and I know plenty of people who know him.

Agree 100%. My 2nd job was Goldman. Which of course made it super easy for me to get into a Ivy League MBA program. The key is studying something useful and getting a good 1st job. If you do good work at a quality organization you can go anywhere from there.

When we hire, once you've been working a few years we're much less focused on your academics and more focused on what you've been doing in the workplace. I don't think we're alone in that.

 

[superjohn]

 

[Engineer90]

This has little to do with being a legacy. It is more about buying your way into a coveted spot whether legacy or not. It is coveted for several reasons. First, you have the network. Some schools simply have a better network to wealth and power. Second, you have ego. There are a lot of parents who are projecting their desire for achievement onto their kids. They like to brag about their kids at dinner parties and so on. It is the same mentality that drives parents to behave like psychos at sports. Sometimes it is the same parent. Sometimes the parent only rides their kid to succeed at school and sometimes it is only in sports. Whatever the combination, the result is the same, if my kid succeeds then I am a successful parent. For those with an insatiable need for validation, it just goes on and on. Little league today, spelling bee tomorrow, high school class rank, college admissions, graduate school...

Some people are calling for admissions to move to a straight meritocracy. But a straight meritocracy won't stop this. People will just cheat on what they need to cheat on. SAT cheating will just get worse. Prep schools that hand out As will get worse. We will have fake prep schools like we now have fake schools that are just there to get athletes qualified for sports.

And what about the damage that Tiger parents are doing to their kids? That will only get worse as well with a straight meritocracy. Anxiety and depression in colleges is rising rapidly. Kids seeking counseling is rising rapidly. Their parents are riding them like racehorses from a very young age. The parents are robbing their kids of a normal childhood so they can study more and do better on the spelling bee or practice more and win music competitions or spend ungodly hours working with Olympic coaches so they can become good enough to get recruited to top colleges. It is great for the ones that achieve their parent's goals but what happens to the ones that don't? Train wreck.

You can't just focus on the cheaters to fix this very broken system. You have to look at the bigger picture and that includes the abusive tiger parents. The bigger problem here is that *people with a particular political ideology* broke the original Holistic admissions system. Yes, the original one was evil in that it was created to address "The Jewish Problem" at Princeton. But, really, it makes sense to include soft skills along with SAT scores and grades. Emotional intelligence matters. Being able to communicate matters. Being able to operate as part of a team matters. Being able to lead matters. The problem is that none of those things matter to admissions anymore. They now say they want "pointed applicants", not well rounded applicants. So long as you meet a surprisingly low bar for everything else, you just need to be noteworthy in one of the areas they deem worthy. Being a minority gets you in. Being a recruited athlete gets you in. Being associated with a wealthy donor gets you in. It is much easier, and much more tempting, to game a system where one thing can get you in so long as you meet the minimum requirements in the other categories.

 

[Chuck]

@Engineer90, I don’t disagree with many of the problems that you point out, just your premise that a meritocracy will make it worse. Loughlin’s Idiot daughter’s spot will go to the next applicant that worked hard but got denied. If there are more merit-based spots, there may be less need to be as crazy competitive.

I went to law school with a guy that readily admitted that he was for affirmative action because it was the only way legacy acceptance would work. His family went to Penn for generations. He felt zero guilt that he was significantly less qualified than people that got denied.