Expectations for Banks

[doggydaddy]

There have been several posts on this, and I thought it would be a good topic on it's own. I'll start with my own thoughts.

Banks had her surgery in mid-march. Her rehab has gone well from all indications. I've been googling like crazy on ACL tears, recoveries, latest advances. I won't post all the links, but I will post what I believe to be true.

• Barring complications, a player can be clear for 100% participation in 6-8 months.
• No limitations in minutes or activity.
• It will take time to be 100% in regards to speed and explosiveness, but that means more like they are 95% working their way to 100%. For the most part, we won't see the difference.
• Reinjury issue is only 3-6% of the time.
• Surgery is no longer that ugly 5 inch incision that Doty had. And it's now outpatient.

Based on this, I see no reason to think that Banks won't be ready for practice in September and the season in November. She is a very physically strong kid to begin with and I would expect she is rehabbing like a maniac.

I believe some are impacted in their worry by the Doty struggles. But many players have come back with no issues.

Sue Bird came back with no issues after her December surgery. Now, you might think that she had 11 months before the next season to rehab and recover so that is why she was ok the next season. But I found this article and learned something new. She thought about playing at the end of that season. She was practicing without contact after 2 1/2 months and felt if she had worked a little harder she could have done it.

http://articles.courant.com/1999-06-29/sports/9906290186_1_acl-sue-bird-rebecca-lobo

And while Greene, who had a much tougher surgery, said she wasn't herself until her senior season, if you look at the stats, she played the same minutes, had the same amount of rebounds, assists, steals, shooting percentage, ft percentage. She had only a small increase in blocked shots and improved her three point shooting. She scored more but she shot more after Montgomery graduated and her scoring was needed. Her impact to the team her first year after surgery was easy to see and while not as explosive in some ways, it didn't impact her ability to contribute.

I see no reason to think that Banks won't be able to do what Greene did her first year after surgery. Contribute with no restrictions.

 

[EricSD]

Good stuff and good topic. My concern (as a fan obviously) is not only if she reinjures it (nice to see it's only 3-6% of the cases), but that she will lose some of her mobility and athleticism. yes Greene came back with no restrictions, but she was often quoted as saying she couldn't physically do all the things she used to be capable of. On the positive side, she said it made her a better BASKETBALL player who relied on skills and BB IQ as opposed to relying more on sheer athleticism.

But you indicated Kalana's injury was more serious so I'm hopeful Brianna can come back 100%. I do think, like we saw with Bria, that her confidence might be a bit hampered, so it might not be till the 2nd part of the year that we really see the Brianna we saw last season. Either way I hope she feels great and contributes as much as she can. She's really good and I was so impressed with the improvement in her entire game last season. Her freshman to sophomore jump was as dramatic as any I've seen...

 

[alexrgct]

There is a small group of people who seem to have a proclivity to injure ACLs (see Doty, Caroline and Ralph, Shea), but indeed, generally speaking one ACL injury isn't a sentence to further ACL injuries in the future.

As Eric makes reference to, my expectation is more that Banks might need some time to be confident in her surgically-repaired knee, that she can run, jump, cut, dive for a loose ball, etc., without thinking about the possibility of re-injury. How much time is variable of course, as it's more psychological than physical.

 

[HGN]

My only concern here is re-injury and/or lack of confidence. Many athletes who have never had a serious injury lose some confidence in themselves. They lack that explosion they once had because they are afraid to push themselves again. The ones that do return 100% put self doubt and lack of confidence out of their minds and go for it !........ For whatever reason , I think BB is going to go for it. She didn't get the pt she wanted her freshman year and pushed herself during the off-season and came back a different player until the injury. Therefore , she knows what it takes to be a top player at this level. And I don't think she will let herself settle for anything less than 100% commitment , 100% effort , and 100% return to full strength.

 

[Icebear]

DD, your research and observations are consistent with everything that I have read, also, including the material I posted yesterday.

 

[msf22b]

Is she on campus rehabbing or is everyone away?

 

[vtcwbuff]

Estimates of re-injury rates vary from site to site. I think the 3-6% cited might be a bit low. I also wonder if the re-injury numbers are different for women. Obviously, some are prone, Ralph, Doty, Gemelos all come to mind.

Getting the head back together is probably harder than the physical rehab.

 

[Icebear]

Estimates of re-injury rates vary from site to site. I think the 3-6% cited might be a bit low. I also wonder if the re-injury numbers are different for women. Obviously, some are prone, Ralph, Doty, Gemelos all come to mind.

Getting the head back together is probably harder than the physical rehab.

One, also, has to be careful as to whether the study includes both male and female athletes.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

There is a small group of people who seem to have a proclivity to injure ACLs (see Doty, Caroline and Ralph, Shea), but indeed, generally speaking one ACL injury isn't a sentence to further ACL injuries in the future.

As Eric makes reference to, my expectation is more that Banks might need some time to be confident in her surgically-repaired knee, that she can run, jump, cut, dive for a loose ball, etc., without thinking about the possibility of re-injury. How much time is variable of course, as it's more psychological than physical.

Exactly. And every athlete has that confidence threshold to cross and every one is different. To some it is a trifle. Others struggle. From what I have seen of BB's demeanor/'tude I am hoping it will be an easy threshold for her to cross.

 

[meyers7]

Personally I base all my information on knee injuries, ACLs, etc. on Gale Sayers. Because it was in a movie. And I know they can't put anything in a movie unless it's true (I saw that on TV or somewhere). Anyway unless Banks has a Brian Piccolo to help with her rehab, I don't know how well she'll be able to come back. And they're gonna need a song too.

But it's gonna be hard to get a Brian Piccolo. Cause then you gotta die of cancer a few years later. Doubt anyone wants to do that.

IDK, guess we'll just have to wait and see. But I'll guess 17 mpg.

 

[JRRRJ]

Good stuff and good topic. My concern (as a fan obviously) is not only if she reinjures it (nice to see it's only 3-6% of the cases), but that she will lose some of her mobility and athleticism. yes Greene came back with no restrictions, but she was often quoted as saying she couldn't physically do all the things she used to be capable of. On the positive side, she said it made her a better BASKETBALL player who relied on skills and BB IQ as opposed to relying more on sheer athleticism.

But you indicated Kalana's injury was more serious so I'm hopeful Brianna can come back 100%. I do think, like we saw with Bria, that her confidence might be a bit hampered, so it might not be till the 2nd part of the year that we really see the Brianna we saw last season. Either way I hope she feels great and contributes as much as she can. She's really good and I was so impressed with the improvement in her entire game last season. Her freshman to sophomore jump was as dramatic as any I've seen...

I haven't looked up any stats, so I'm just speaking from my personal experience and personal knowledge of a couple other people with ACL replacements.

None of us had any significant reduction in ability from the event. We all trained as hard as our orthopods allowed (and perhaps cheated a bit on the overdoing side, but not much as we were focused on returning to tennis without re-injury). Despite my right thigh losing 3" (!!) in the 2 weeks I was not allowed to bend it at all and my Dr's assertion it would never be the same size as the other one again, it has recovered fully and I am both stronger & faster than I was before the operation. (The latter possibly because my right knee was now properly tight again.) That process was complete by the time I was given clearance for full-speed play (6 months). I'd been running for a few weeks before that, just no cutting allowed.

My Dr was team orthopod for the Phoenix indoor soccer league and told me that half the team had one or two damaged ACLs but eschewed surgery because they didn't want to miss a season. They trained their quads & hams so hard the musculature held the joints in place, even at the speed they play.

All this being true, I don't understand how an injury like this reduces the ability of an athlete who does the rehab, unless there is significant collateral damage like torn menisci (30% of my lateral meniscus was removed when the ACL was replaced) that causes ongoing pain. And these days even menisci can be replaced with pretty good success.

Can some one shed some light? Is it all mental? Seems unlikely with such driven athletes.

On edit: should have read more entries before posting. It appears many think it's a mental hurdle. Do you know this for a fact, or is it supposition?

 

[MilfordHusky]

All signs are encouraging. Like Eric, I'm a little concerned that she might lose some athleticism, as Kalana did, but Brianna's injury is less severe. Sue Bird came back beautifully. Adrian Peterson was as good as ever. Odyssey Sims sure does not look a step slower.

My wild guess is that she will have limited minutes and be a little rusty until about New Years. After that, I think she plays as well as she did last season. Her senior year, she'll be a possible candidate for BE 6th Man/Woman recognition and a likely WNBA draftee. She has next-level athleticism, and she cleared a huge hurdle last summer in terms of mindset and effort. She also seemed to be a good, upbeat teammate after her injury. I expect her to be an impact player going forward.

 

[MilfordHusky]

Personally I base all my information on knee injuries, ACLs, etc. on Gale Sayers. Because it was in a movie. And I know they can't put anything in a movie unless it's true (I saw that on TV or somewhere). Anyway unless Banks has a Brian Piccolo to help with her rehab, I don't know how well she'll be able to come back. And they're gonna need a song too.

But it's gonna be hard to get a Brian Piccolo. Cause then you gotta die of cancer a few years later. Doubt anyone wants to do that.

IDK, guess we'll just have to wait and see. But I'll guess 17 mpg.

Billy Dee Williams seemed to be walking just fine in Star Wars, and James Caan came back to life briefly in The Godfather, so appearances can be deceiving.

 

[meyers7]

Billy Dee Williams seemed to be walking just fine in Star Wars, and James Caan came back to life briefly in The Godfather, so appearances can be deceiving.

Good points.

(Although Sonny didn't end too well either. )

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

There have been several posts on this, and I thought it would be a good topic on it's own. I'll start with my own thoughts.

Banks had her surgery in mid-march. Her rehab has gone well from all indications. I've been googling like crazy on ACL tears, recoveries, latest advances. I won't post all the links, but I will post what I believe to be true.

• 
  [ ]Barring complications, a player can be clear for 100% participation in 6-8 months.
  [ ]No limitations in minutes or activity.
  [ ]It will take time to be 100% in regards to speed and explosiveness, but that means more like they are 95% working their way to 100%. For the most part, we won't see the difference.
  [ ]Reinjury issue is only 3-6% of the time.
  [ ]Surgery is no longer that ugly 5 inch incision that Doty had. And it's now outpatient.

Based on this, I see no reason to think that Banks won't be ready for practice in September and the season in November. She is a very physically strong kid to begin with and I would expect she is rehabbing like a maniac.


I believe some are impacted in their worry by the Doty struggles. But many players have come back with no issues.

Sue Bird came back with no issues after her December surgery. Now, you might think that she had 11 months before the next season to rehab and recover so that is why she was ok the next season. But I found this article and learned something new. She thought about playing at the end of that season. She was practicing without contact after 2 1/2 months and felt if she had worked a little harder she could have done it.

http://articles.courant.com/1999-06-29/sports/9906290186_1_acl-sue-bird-rebecca-lobo

And while Greene, who had a much tougher surgery, said she wasn't herself until her senior season, if you look at the stats, she played the same minutes, had the same amount of rebounds, assists, steals, shooting percentage, ft percentage. She had only a small increase in blocked shots and improved her three point shooting. She scored more but she shot more after Montgomery graduated and her scoring was needed. Her impact to the team her first year after surgery was easy to see and while not as explosive in some ways, it didn't impact her ability to contribute.

I see no reason to think that Banks won't be able to do what Greene did her first year after surgery. Contribute with no restrictions.

Post Of The Day

 

[stamfordhusky]

I haven't looked up any stats, so I'm just speaking from my personal experience and personal knowledge of a couple other people with ACL replacements.

None of us had any significant reduction in ability from the event. We all trained as hard as our orthopods allowed (and perhaps cheated a bit on the overdoing side, but not much as we were focused on returning to tennis without re-injury). Despite my right thigh losing 3" (!!) in the 2 weeks I was not allowed to bend it at all and my Dr's assertion it would never be the same size as the other one again, it has recovered fully and I am both stronger & faster than I was before the operation. (The latter possibly because my right knee was now properly tight again.) That process was complete by the time I was given clearance for full-speed play (6 months). I'd been running for a few weeks before that, just no cutting allowed.

My Dr was team orthopod for the Phoenix indoor soccer league and told me that half the team had one or two damaged ACLs but eschewed surgery because they didn't want to miss a season. They trained their quads & hams so hard the musculature held the joints in place, even at the speed they play.

All this being true, I don't understand how an injury like this reduces the ability of an athlete who does the rehab, unless there is significant collateral damage like torn menisci (30% of my lateral meniscus was removed when the ACL was replaced) that causes ongoing pain. And these days even menisci can be replaced with pretty good success.

Can some one shed some light? Is it all mental? Seems unlikely with such driven athletes.

On edit: should have read more entries before posting. It appears many think it's a mental hurdle. Do you know this for a fact, or is it supposition?

I know for a fact that a number of athletes have said there is a big mental hurdle - particularly if it was a non-contact injury. To play at 100%, they have to plant the leg hundreds of times in the exact same way that blew out the ACL in the first place. Often not easy to plant as hard - which then affects how quickly they cut or how efficiently they jump. That is one reason doctors may give a player a knee brace. Usually it will have no effect at all on the likelihood of a new non-contact tear - but it often will help with the mental issue.

Two other possible issues with recovery, beyond meniscus damage (which you mentioned) are (a) possible nerve damage; and (b) issues if using the hamstring for the surgery instead of the patella tendon. Sometimes for various reasons, the patella tendon transplant is not recommended and the hamstring is used. Although initial recovery may be faster, the player is left with less than 100% of the hamstring and may lose a bit of speed or jumping ability.

The soccer players mentioned above likely had partially torn hamstrings. With a full tear, it is virtually impossible to play a sport like soccer effectively, even with months or years of rehab. Even the strongest players find the knee to be unstable.

 

[MilfordHusky]

Good points.

(Although Sonny didn't end too well either. )

I've had to endure very long lines and pay outrageous sums at toll booths, but my experience pales in comparison with that of Sonny Corleone.

 

[SallyH]

I sure hope she comes back at full strength or even stronger, I really loved her game this last year.

 

[JoePgh]

As a Sun season ticketholder, I have watched Kalana quite a bit in the last few years. She seems especially effective this year. On Sunday, she was a big part of getting the Sun back into the game with Atlanta.

On one play, I observed Kalana going above the rim to get a rebound. I can't believe that either her leaping, her acceleration, or her foot speed have been negatively affected by her old ACL injury, or at least whatever effects there were at the time have become negligible by now. I think if she were in a sprint today against MoJeff to get from one end of the court to the other (either dribbling or not), she would win.

All you can say is that the effect of an ACL injury depends on the individual. It can range from Caroline and Shea (substantial, at least after repeated injuries) to Kalana and Sue (negligible after a couple of years). No one knows (least of all Brianna) where she falls in that spectrum.

If she is close to her "old self", then I would expect her to pair with Bria in the starting backcourt, with MoJeff and Saniya getting substantial minutes off the bench. I do think that the coaches will limit Brianna's minutes for much of the season, and probably keep them around 20. But Brianna is the only returning guard with enough length to be effective on defense against the taller guards that UConn will face.

 

[jsloanjr]

This UCONN medical staff and trainers got this rehab...........Down complete........

 

[johnnyc]

I hope she didn't lose much. Can you imagine a healthy BB and MoJeff on the court together! NCAA might have to rethink that 10 second rule.....

 

[Jonathan Husky]

All signs are encouraging. Like Eric, I'm a little concerned that she might lose some athleticism, as Kalana did, but Brianna's injury is less severe. Sue Bird came back beautifully. Adrian Peterson was as good as ever. Odyssey Sims sure does not look a step slower.

My wild guess is that she will have limited minutes and be a little rusty until about New Years. After that, I think she plays as well as she did last season. Her senior year, she'll be a possible candidate for BE 6th Man/Woman recognition and a likely WNBA draftee. She has next-level athleticism, and she cleared a huge hurdle last summer in terms of mindset and effort. She also seemed to be a good, upbeat teammate after her injury. I expect her to be an impact player going forward.

If she recovers, she will be the starting shooting guard her senior year and not eligible for 6th man award.

 

[MilfordHusky]

If she recovers, she will be the starting shooting guard her senior year and not eligible for 6th man award.

That is quite possible, maybe even probable, but it's also possible that she'll be the 6th man because (1) the starters are Kiah, Stewie, MoTuck, MoJeff, and KML; (2) Chong, Ekmark, Williams, or Edwards is ready to start; or (3) Geno wants Brianna to come in as the change-of-pace player a few minutes into the game. Looking at that lineup, I see 10 future pro players.

 

[OneTrickPony]

The sun, the moon and a few stars...

 

[meyers7]

This UCONN medical staff and trainers got this rehab...........Down complete........

Yea, unfortunately.

 

[UcMiami]

Interesting discussion and I don't want to be negative but ...
1. Numerous players have reported the mental hurdle of trusting the injured knee 100%.
2. I think defensive speed and explosive first step were Kalana's biggest issues coming back and while her stats may have been the same, watching her that first year back she clearly wasn't the same player as pre-injury. And her senior year she was much improved, but still not as explosive as she had been. Not sure of her current status and she may have gotten stronger and faster over the years.
3. The other very important issue with any injury is that the recovery time takes away from the skill work that players do all the time. BB is missing the whole summer in terms of skill training so even if she is physically 100% she has missed 6 months of shooting, ball handling, defensive drills that would normally be happening. We saw what the summer meant to her game after her freshman year and she is missing that developmental time this year. (NB This is a concern with Stef as well who is spending this summer recovering and not 'stressing' her feet/ankles.) (And I think this has been an issue with KS as she has dealt with a lot of 'minor' injuries that have stunted the progression of her game.)

And just a note on AP and his recovery - they say he is a 1 in 100 athlete in terms of his recovery ability. And in pro football, somewhere around 50% of players that have an ACL are out of the game within 2 years of the injury (so really only one playing year.) Football is a much different game, but that % belies the idea of 100% recovery in 90% of athletes. Professional and high college athletes are pushing their bodies to the edge of the envelope all the time so they are more likely to notice less than 100% recovered skills and to also have some recurring problems.