ESPN: Top 50 College Hoops Coaches

[intlzncster]

It wouldn't be outrageous to have KO behind those guys. But the column did say that legacy wasn't being considered. Leaves a lot of room for ambiguity, but KO is right there. If Roy Williams is ahead of KO that might light my arse up.

Probably will be because....UNC.

 

[CL82]

For me, one game doesn't decide who the better coach was. Otherwise, how do you rank Pitino, Calipari, and Ollie? Cal beat Pitino just a week or so before he lost to Ollie. Pitino mopped the floor with Ollie last year. To determine who the best coaches are, we have to look at their track records at least a little. Coach K doesn't get credit for winning titles in the early 90s, but the Squid has been to three Final Fours this decade. Losing one game to Ollie doesn't cancel that out.

Reread my post Bruce. It's not just that Ollie won, it is that he won with a team that had some big time flaws, including a very inexperienced post. That was pretty impressive. I'd be okay with ranking Pitino ahead of Ollie because I do feel like he exploited our weakness very effectively. I do think Ollie learned form those loses. Although the sample is still too small, I think that Ollie may be a great game coach. I was very impressed by his adjustments during the NCAAs. He's something special.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Reread my post Bruce. It's not just that Ollie won, it is that he won with a team that had some big time flaws, including a very inexperienced post. That was pretty impressive. I'd be okay with ranking Pitino ahead of Ollie because I do feel like he exploited our weakness very effectively. I do think Ollie learned form those loses. Although the sample is still too small, I think that Ollie may be a great game coach. I was very impressed by his adjustments during the NCAAs. He's something special.

First off, every college basketball team is flawed. Hell, Kentucky was as flawed as anyone last year, and they still made the title game.

And I agree with you about Ollie looking like he's going to be a special coach. At this moment, I wouldn't trade him for anyone. But it's still only one run, and if I'm making a list of the guys who have been the best coaches lately, Cal comes out on top.

 

[jibsey]

KO has shown he can do more with less. As far as who is top 5 or 10, who cares? We have the current best in this moment young coach in college BB, and now he's gonna have to do it from way less with the conference he has been saddled with, but you know what, this underdog thing has worked before, and compared to other guys on the list if KO can't pull top playersI don't think we can blame him. Coach K has 4 five stars coming and usually like that every year, so to me that takes away from his challenge.

 

[intlzncster]

KO has shown he can do more with less. As far as who is top 5 or 10, who cares? We have the current best in this moment young coach in college BB, and now he's gonna have to do it from way less with the conference he has been saddled with, but you know what, this underdog thing has worked before, and compared to other guys on the list if KO can't pull top playersI don't think we can blame him. Coach K has 4 five stars coming and usually like that every year, so to me that takes away from his challenge.

Far be it from me to defend K (ick), but the guy has proven it with consistency like no other. Hard not to put him #1. I always put JC over him for a number of reasons, but it was a 1, 1a kind of situation.

 

[thatguyed]

When Cronin read this, do you think the leprechaun stormed up and down in his office yelling at an imaginary referee?

 

[tcf15]

ESPN is really milking this. They are releasing the top 25 over the next 5 weeks- one a day.

 

[CallMeBruce]

ESPN is really milking this. They are releasing the top 25 over the next 5 weeks- one a day.

That's what they did with the NBA products one last year. I looked forward to it every morning, and I was somehow disappointed when UConn got #3, even though that was my original prediction.

 

[CL82]

First off, every college basketball team is flawed. Hell, Kentucky was as flawed as anyone last year, and they still made the title game.

And I agree with you about Ollie looking like he's going to be a special coach. At this moment, I wouldn't trade him for anyone. But it's still only one run, and if I'm making a list of the guys who have been the best coaches lately, Cal comes out on top .

Lol, as flawed as anyone? That didn't seem to be the consensus opinion prior to the season since they were the concensus pick to win it all.

Kentucky Basketball 2013-2014: The Most Talented Team Ever?

http://i1./mikelucassports.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/screen-shot-2013-04-03-at-9-22-28-am.png?zoom=1.5&resize=298%2C232

There was a pretty sizable talent disparity between the two teams, at least in the view of pretty much everyone but you. So how did UConn prevail? I think Ollie had the better prepared team. Connecticut took control and kept control. It was an outstanding coaching job. I'm sorry that you missed it.

 

[intlzncster]

Lol, as flawed as anyone? That didn't seem to be the consensus opinion prior to the season since they were the concensus pick to win it all.

Kentucky Basketball 2013-2014: The Most Talented Team Ever?

http://i1./mikelucassports.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/screen-shot-2013-04-03-at-9-22-28-am.png?zoom=1.5&resize=298%2C232

There was a pretty sizable talent disparity between the two teams, at least in the view of pretty much everyone but you. So how did UConn prevail? I think Ollie had the better prepared team. Connecticut took control and kept control. It was an outstanding coaching job. I'm sorry that you missed it.

I have to disagree a bit. High school rankings coming in to college aren't a great way to evaluate players, especially come tournament time. I get that is what everyone does, but still.

Looking at the season, do you really think the Harrisons should have been rated that high? Absolutely no way. Young and Randle fine, although Young couldn't play a lick of defense (not against us anyway).

Now if you asked any intelligent basketball observer (like Kenny Smith) who had more talent on the perimeter, they would say UCONN. And we know, MCBB is a guards game. The most talented player on the floor was unequivocally Shabazz Napier. And we also know that having the best player on the floor is a huge advantage to that particular team, especially when it's the PG.

Now UK def had more talent on the interior, but with their starter out, all UCONN needed to do was clog the middle, and allow its guards to take over. Game. Set. Match. The matchup definitely favored UCONN imo. I had complete and total confidence we would win that game. The two games that scared me the most going in was Iowa State and MSU.

All that said, Ollie well out-coached Cal, both before and during the game. No question.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Lol, as flawed as anyone? That didn't seem to be the consensus opinion prior to the season since they were the concensus pick to win it all.

Kentucky Basketball 2013-2014: The Most Talented Team Ever?

http://i1./mikelucassports.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/screen-shot-2013-04-03-at-9-22-28-am.png?zoom=1.5&resize=298%2C232

There was a pretty sizable talent disparity between the two teams, at least in the view of pretty much everyone but you. So how did UConn prevail? I think Ollie had the better prepared team. Connecticut took control and kept control. It was an outstanding coaching job.

Kentucky was also an incredibly inexperienced team. There's a reason they were an 8-seed. They, like UConn, suffered through some rough stretches during the season.

I'm sorry that you missed it.

Was this really necessary? You have to resort to condescending crap like this because someone disagrees with you?

 

[intlzncster]

Kentucky was also an incredibly inexperienced team. There's a reason they were an 8-seed. They, like UConn, suffered through some rough stretches during the season.



Was this really necessary? You have to resort to condescending crap like this because someone disagrees with you?

My answer was better Bruce.

 

[CallMeBruce]

My answer was better Bruce.

You got me.

 

[CL82]

Kentucky was also an incredibly inexperienced team. There's a reason they were an 8-seed. They, like UConn, suffered through some rough stretches during the season.



Was this really necessary? You have to resort to condescending crap like this because someone disagrees with you?

Lol, take it down a notch chief.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Lol, take it down a notch chief.

 

[CL82]

I have to disagree a bit. High school rankings coming in to college aren't a great way to evaluate players, especially come tournament time. I get that is what everyone does, but still.

Looking at the season, do you really think the Harrisons should have been rated that high? Absolutely no way. Young and Randle fine, although Young couldn't play a lick of defense (not against us anyway).

Now if you asked any intelligent basketball observer (like Kenny Smith) who had more talent on the perimeter, they would say UCONN. And we know, MCBB is a guards game. The most talented player on the floor was unequivocally Shabazz Napier. And we also know that having the best player on the floor is a huge advantage to that particular team, especially when it's the PG.

Now UK def had more talent on the interior, but with their starter out, all UCONN needed to do was clog the middle, and allow its guards to take over. Game. Set. Match. The matchup definitely favored UCONN imo. I had complete and total confidence we would win that game. The two games that scared me the most going in was Iowa State and MSU.

All that said, Ollie well out-coached Cal, both before and during the game. No question.

I don't think we disagree much at all. The very talented high school players at Kentucky didn't develop much over the course a season. Isn't that pretty much what a coach is supposed to do? We won a championship with our undersize guards taking opposing teams out of their comfort zone game after game. Credit goes to Bazz, Boat and Samuel for that, no doubt, but huge props goes to Ollie for putting together the game plan. We ran the table as underdogs (except maybe St. Joes) pretty impressive. I have a hard time putting Calipari above Ollie head to head, if we are only considering last season. That's subjective though.

 

[intlzncster]

I don't think we disagree much at all. The very talented high school players at Kentucky didn't develop much over the course a season. Isn't that pretty much what a coach is supposed to do? We won a championship with our undersize guards taking opposing teams out of their comfort zone game after game. Credit goes to Bazz, Boat and Samuel for that, no doubt, but huge props goes to Ollie for putting together the game plan. We ran the table as underdogs (except maybe St. Joes) pretty impressive. I have a hard time putting Calipari above Ollie head to head, if we are only considering last season. That's subjective though.

I guess I was saying that UKs guards were overrated and not as talented as other people claimed they were (coming into college); I don't really like their game all that much (at this point). They just have height.

Also, Shabazz had more talent by far than anyone on UK.

I'm kind of disputing the more much more talent overall observation. I don't think the disparity was all that great.

 

[Gurleyman]

I guess I was saying that UKs guards were overrated and not as talented as other people claimed they were (coming into college); I don't really like their game all that much (at this point). They just have height.

Also, Shabazz had more talent by far than anyone on UK.

I'm kind of disputing the more much more talent overall observation. I don't think the disparity was all that great.

I'd agree with you - I think we beat them in a seven-game series pretty easily, maybe 4-1. Perhaps 10 years from now, UK's guys will have had more success at the next level, but there's a difference between raw talent and actualized talent. Perhaps the Harrisons will be much better next year, but this year they were rather pedestrian and UK was never going to have an answer for Bazz/Boat. I think we'd be able to take them out of their offense every time we played them. We had a disadvantage with our bigs not being able to finish inside, so we'd probably take a loss on a cold shooting night. But the one time we did play, we had significant first half foul trouble that cost us a healthy lead, DD was off his game, and we still didn't let them up off the mat.

 

[James]

calipari was lauded for switching (which was forced) to a zone in the title game. KO threw really interesting zone looks sparingly through games, which is much more cerebral. KO's defensive philosophy( man2man and pnr coverage) was much more thought out than Cal... cal essentially had them playing pick up out there.
I think a big factor in our run was conditioning, guys like randle/dakari johnson and dawson had their hands on their knees very quickly after a few big2big doubles. And wilbekan was done for, wasn't in good enough shape to handle boat in his grill. Heres a quote from Paxtons piece today i loved

"A lot of guys look at us a little crazy because you know we push them even in this month. Even in early June we push them because we know if we push them now later on down the road it will be second nature to them, and they'll understand what it takes to be an UConn basketball player."

 

[Waquoit]

calipari was lauded for switching (which was forced) to a zone in the title game.

Wrongly so, IMO. The narrowing of the margin was more due to UConn having 2 out of their best 3 players on the bench with foul trouble than the zone.

 

[elduderino]

When Cronin read this, do you think the leprechaun stormed up and down in his office yelling at an imaginary referee?

I'm not a fan of the guy, but he's overachieving just about every year IMO. Doesn't seem real likeable, but I'd have to have him just a half step below Hoiberg and B Williams in annual performance to talent ratio, although Buzz's last year was an admittedly pathetic disaster.

 

[elduderino]

How can I not LIKE that?!

 

[jibsey]

I don't think we disagree much at all. The very talented high school players at Kentucky didn't develop much over the course a season. Isn't that pretty much what a coach is supposed to do? We won a championship with our undersize guards taking opposing teams out of their comfort zone game after game. Credit goes to Bazz, Boat and Samuel for that, no doubt, but huge props goes to Ollie for putting together the game plan. We ran the table as underdogs (except maybe St. Joes) pretty impressive. I have a hard time putting Calipari above Ollie head to head, if we are only considering last season. That's subjective though.

KO gave huge defensive game plan credit to Glenn Miller, and that's where I disagree with this ranking of individual coaches. Now coaches get some credit for hiring their staff with some inherited from before usually but aren't they the guys that stay up around the clock breaking down tape and always work one on one with the players? The boss soaks up the glory and the salary and 60% of the work is the underlings. Maybe the difference was we has better staff?

 

[Gurleyman]

calipari was lauded for switching (which was forced) to a zone in the title game. KO threw really interesting zone looks sparingly through games, which is much more cerebral. KO's defensive philosophy( man2man and pnr coverage) was much more thought out than Cal... cal essentially had them playing pick up out there.
I think a big factor in our run was conditioning, guys like randle/dakari johnson and dawson had their hands on their knees very quickly after a few big2big doubles. And wilbekan was done for, wasn't in good enough shape to handle boat in his grill. Heres a quote from Paxtons piece today i loved

It was all summed up in the final minute. Kentucky tried to run a designed defensive play to trap Bazz late in the shot clock and force the ball out of his hands (after the debacle of killing 50 seconds due to a tardy foul without being in the bonus). Some thought Young did that on his own, but it was clearly a designed defense. In theory, a good plan with Young leaving our least significant offensive threat on the floor open (Kromah). The problem was, their organization was just terrible. Young ran at Bazz while Harrison was playing five feet off him with his hands down. Bazz was in the middle of the floor, under no ball pressure whatsoever, and could survey the whole floor, see where the double was coming from, and adjust his passing angle accordingly to find the open man. Easy peasy. He/we saw it coming a mile away. For that to work against a veteran guard who isn't going to have his head down for no reason, Harrison has to be putting more pressure on the ball so that Bazz can't see the double coming that easily - ideally forcing him to one side of the floor so the rest of the defense (playing at a 3-on-4 disadvantage) can anticipate where the next pass is going to go.

In addition to that, Poythress was also way late sagging off of DD to help after Young made his move, so he had to come at Kromah in a panic (a simple upfake and he landed on him). If he had slid over right when Young left Kromah (i.e. the sign of a team coached well in how to do this), he might have been able to challenge without fouling and the plan might have worked even without Harrison/Young executing the first part of it properly. But the whole defensive scheme was a hot mess (the disadvantage of having four freshmen and a sophomore out there, perhaps). We were ready for it, and Kromah went right to the rim.

Then at the other end, we (Boat) pressured them up the length of the floor to slow them down, switched a dribble handoff seamlessly forcing them out wide, and made them take a deep, contested three after burning 10 seconds. We knew what we were doing defensively, and they didn't. We had control of the game anyway at that point, but it was nice to put the final stamp on it and not have the anxious moment of them having the ball with a chance to tie or take a lead.

 

[intlzncster]

KO gave huge defensive game plan credit to Glenn Miller, and that's where I disagree with this ranking of individual coaches. Now coaches get some credit for hiring their staff with some inherited from before usually but aren't they the guys that stay up around the clock breaking down tape and always work one on one with the players? The boss soaks up the glory and the salary and 60% of the work is the underlings. Maybe the difference was we has better staff?

But that's the way it is in any sport. If you throw out caveats like that every time, you can't really evaluate anybody.

 

[gtcam]

First, I love KO, his character and bball knowledge is top 5. However, after 2 years, and yes, a NC, I find it hard to put him in top 5. I was surprised he wasn't in the bottom 25.
If he, and I have no reason to think he won't, remains as successful as past 2 years, he will be in top 5 in 5 years.

 

[Inyatkin]

It was all summed up in the final minute. Kentucky tried to run a designed defensive play to trap Bazz late in the shot clock and force the ball out of his hands (after the debacle of killing 50 seconds due to a y foul without being in the bonus). Some thought Young did that on his own, but it was clearly a designed defense..

I don't know. I could see a freshman, and a bad defender at that, acting all crazy like Young did and essentially ending the game by leaving Kromah alone underneath. To think that that was somehow a designed defensive play, by someone considered one of the better coaches going, is hard to figure.

 

[Gurleyman]

I don't know. I could see a freshman, and a bad defender at that, acting all crazy like Young did and essentially ending the game by leaving Kromah alone underneath. To think that that was somehow a designed defensive play, by someone considered one of the better coaches going, is hard to figure.

I think it was clearly designed for a couple reasons. Cal is off screen, but the players on the court look in his direction when Naiper's holding the ball at midcourt as if to observe a signal. And then Young made his move with 10 seconds on the shot clock - as if the clock was the cue to run the double.

A hyperactive guy might have left after Harrison poked the ball free thinking there might be a loose ball, or possibly brought help too soon if he was the closest defender. But Young was 40 feet away, and had to pass by Boat and his Harrison (defender) to bring the double. It is possible that Poythress didn't hear/see the signal and didn't react properly. There was never a timeout called, so perhaps they needed a chance to get organized (but final minute of a NC, you better figure out a way to be organized).

 

[Inyatkin]

I think it was clearly designed for a couple reasons. Cal is off screen, but the players on the court look in his direction when Naiper's holding the ball at midcourt as if to observe a signal. And then Young made his move with 10 seconds on the shot clock - as if the clock was the cue to run the double.

A hyperactive guy might have left after Harrison poked the ball free thinking there might be a loose ball, or possibly brought help too soon if he was the closest defender. But Young was 40 feet away, and had to pass by Boat and his Harrison (defender) to bring the double. It is possible that Poythress didn't hear/see the signal and didn't react properly. There was never a timeout called, so perhaps they needed a chance to get organized (but final minute of a NC, you better figure out a way to be organized).

Yeah I think the key is that designed or not, it was so unbelievably poorly executed. Really doesn't speak well for his coaching if 40 games into the season that's how his players are carrying out his plans (or freelancing, whichever).

 

[Gurleyman]

Yeah I think the key is that designed or not, it was so unbelievably poorly executed. Really doesn't speak well for his coaching if 40 games into the season that's how his players are carrying out his plans (or freelancing, whichever).

Yeah - it looked like a drill on October 20 where the coach stops the practice and says, "no, no, no - that's all wrong". The whole point of doing it is to force someone else to make the play, but Kromah didn't even have to make a play, really - other than catching the ball. Harrison's hands were down the whole time in a Venus de Milo defense, and for Bazz it was just a jump to the left to create a passing angle (and then a step to the right).

I was also wrong - Kentucky did call a timeout after the foul with 50 seconds left, so they all should have been on the same page. It looked like Kentucky had never run this type of double before, but I wouldn't put it past our coaching staff to have seen it in film study and had everyome prepared on how to break it. When you look at the success we had with the lob pass to DD against zones (an option unavailable when he was in foul trouble), or how we leaked out Giff against the UF press, or how we exploited the switch that put Randle on Boat - we always (or often) seemed to be prepared to atttack various wrinkles. Kentucky was in enough close games that they may have shown that double before. Or it could just be Bazz being savvy and acting on instinct from seeing doubles like that before.