ESPN: This year's three to see and need to Know

[Orangutan]

I seem to remember that she hit a three or two when the game was, in essence, over. Before that, Loyd was largely putting up shots and missing and not a factor. I've seen more than a few cases of people putting up numbers when it meant virtually nothing to the team. Jim Rice of the Red Sox was that player, to me. He padded his stats when the game was well in hand, one way or another. As a Yankee fan, he was the guy I always wanted up in clutch situations because he was either going to strike out or hit into a DP. He's only in the Hall because people see the stats and not the reality of when he actually got those Homers and RBI's. Getting back to Loyd, she is a very talented lady but as mentioned, I think her numbers looked better because of some late scoring when we were cruising to a big and decisive win.

She scored 11 of her 13 points in the first half in the national championship game, including both of her made 3-pointers.

 

[Buzzyboy]

Most of the offense was run for/through McBride, in my observation. Loyd scored a lot around the margins, put backs, transition, individual plays. They didn't really run that much offense designed for her, which I think they will do this year.

It's not so much that she was "leashed" last year. She just wasn't the focal point. She'll have the ball in her hands a lot more this year and be expected to be more of a playmaker like K-Mac was.

Actually you mentioned her not being the focal point and that's why she may not have as good a year as you're implying she will. She is really apt to be more of the focal point of defenses since McBride and company have left. Last year they had a few go to players and now, on the surface at least, until someone else really shows themselves, she is the ONE go to player that should be keyed on, game after game, after game!

 

[Buzzyboy]

She scored 11 of her 13 points in the first half in the national championship game, including both of her made 3-pointers.

Sounds like you have factual info so I'll concede that I was mistaken. I guess I can't rely on my "recollections" anymore! Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Orangutan]

Actually you mentioned her not being the focal point and that's why she may not have as good a year as you're implying she will. She is really apt to be more of the focal point of defenses since McBride and company have left. Last year they had a few go to players and now, on the surface at least, until someone else really shows themselves, she is the ONE go to player that should be keyed on, game after game, after game!

I wouldn't be surprised to see her percentages slip a little but I'd guess her overall numbers remain similar because she takes more shots and her assist totals jump. Yes, every D will be keying on her but Mabrey, Johnson, and Cable are all reliable three-point threats, so you can't really afford to leave the others open.

I think ND has enough other threats to keep teams honest, but we'll see. The big thing is whether Reimer and Turner can score consistently in the post. I think they will...but it will be interesting to see what happens the first time they run into a really formidable post team.

 

[Buzzyboy]

You cannot compare their head-to-head stats because Geno will most certainly scheme to remove Loyd from the game but I can guarantee that Muffet has "bigger" problems to focus on than the 8th grader. Last season Hartley had far better stats than Sims when UConn played Baylor, but one could argue that UConn's defense was focused on Sims while Baylor's defense had all sorts of threats to neutralize and could not give Hartley that type of attention. But would anyone not in Huskies' blue argue that Hartley is a better basketball player than Sims? When removed from the UConn environment, Hartley could not match Sims in the WNBA or the World Championship tryouts. One of the difficulties teams face when playing UConn is that they have to deal with the outstanding coaching of Geno. The second problem is they have to deal with the exceptional recruiting and development of players by Geno (and staff). UConn teams, stuffed as they are with well-coached top 5 recruits, are incredibly difficult to score against and to defend, which is why superstars usually have their worst games against UConn. But to argue that this proves a UConn player is better than an opponent's star is fraught with peril.

Conversely, wouldn't you say that in some cases a player of enormous talent, like Breanna, might have lesser stats than would a player like Sims BECAUSE of the team philosophy that UConn presents continually. I mean, if Breanna were in Sims role, where she was the offense, wouldn't her stats be appreciably better. More points for sure and probably more rebounds, assists, blocks, etc.? Sims was the point guard and the two guard, rolled into one and her stats were through the roof because of it. If Baylor had Griner back and if they had more shooters on their team last year, her stats would never have approached what they did. What's amazing is that Maya scored as many points as she did while playing for UConn because with the exception ofher senior year, she never really was THE focal point of UConn's offense. Her senior year, with Tina Charles having left, that changed a bit.

 

[pinotbear]

I seem to remember that she hit a three or two when the game was, in essence, over. Before that, Loyd was largely putting up shots and missing and not a factor. I've seen more than a few cases of people putting up numbers when it meant virtually nothing to the team. Jim Rice of the Red Sox was that player, to me. He padded his stats when the game was well in hand, one way or another. As a Yankee fan, he was the guy I always wanted up in clutch situations because he was either going to strike out or hit into a DP. He's only in the Hall because people see the stats and not the reality of when he actually got those Homers and RBI's. Getting back to Loyd, she is a very talented lady but as mentioned, I think her numbers looked better because of some late scoring when we were cruising to a big and decisive win.

Not gonna get into a long debate about it, but, couldn't disagree with you more regarding Jim Rice - the most feared hitter of his era. Yankee fans remember well Dave Righetti's July 4 no-hitter against the Sox in 1983. Red Sox fans remember that Righetti walked Rice two of the three times he faced him. You may have wanted Rice up in a clutch situation, but, clearly, Dave, Billy Martin, and the Yankee coaching staff did not.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Truth of what matter? The one you conjured up or the point(s) actually raised by 'Choke?

I guessed you missed the part of his post that dealt with "head-to-head" stats, on particular squads (i.e., this year's).

I noted that it's hard to compare two players on different squads, and in this case with very different roles. Comparing stats for a player who could take 30+ shots in a game even when she was going 13-37 against a team like Kansas against a player like Hartley who definitely could not, well that's tough. And of course if Hartley did have any stats that were better in a head-to-head, you and others might just say it was because she was on a better team.

But let's make that college match-up comparison anyway, since you insist. In that "neutral site" game down in Texas, the line was:

Sims: 4-25 FGs, 16% on FGs, 2-6 3pt, 10-10 FTs, 1 Reb, 4 PF, 20 points, 4 assists, 7 TOs, 1 steal.

Hartley: 7-18 FGs, 39% on FGs, 2-6 3pt, 3 Reb, 3 PF, 17 points, 3 assists, 4 TOs, 2 steals.

Maybe you're saying that the tremendous FT shooting and 3 more points on a ton more shots from the field and line means that Sims won the head-to-head? Personally, I 'd take Hartley's stats, even if you say it's all due to that mystical "Husky support factor." UConn always does have best defense in the nation, but some big game players like Diggins still learned how to deal with it well enough in many games.

But I was mainly responding to the view that a Husky star like Hartley (as opposed to a superstar like Moore) was getting the advantage of being on a Husky team but would be at a big disadvantage against a player like Sims in the WNBA. Maybe you missed it, but the statement was "Hartley could not match Sims in the WNBA."

We'll see more about that as time goes on and their careers play out, but again Hartley was not one of the "Three to See" and plays a different role on teams both in the college and pros. No, she is not going to toss up 27 shots like Sims in her first WNBA game, and perhaps that makes her a far lesser player.

But personally, if I was to compose an argument concerning the effects of playing on a team like UConn versus a team like Baylor that has been one of the top 3 over the last three years, I would play fair and choose two players at basically the same level and with the same role, such as Maya Moore and Odyssey Sims as seniors and in the first WNBA season. Both were the focal points of their team. Hartley was not, though it didn't stop her from going "head-to-head" against other team's stars and often coming out on top.

 

[Orangutan]

Hartley was not, though it didn't stop her from going "head-to-head" against other team's stars and often coming out on top.

Consider that she often came out on top because she wasn't the focal point...of the best defense in the country.

 

[easttexastrash]

I would add Welch from South Carolina and call it "The Four to Adore." IMO she is a top 3 player.

 

[triaddukefan]

I would add Welch from South Carolina and call it "The Four to Adore." IMO she is a top 3 player.

If I didnt know any better, I'd think you were angling for a job as the Mayor of Columbia

 

[Orangutan]

I would add Welch from South Carolina and call it "The Four to Adore." IMO she is a top 3 player.

If anyone from SC would be on the list it would be the reigning SEC player of the year.

 

[VAMike23]

I noted that it's hard to compare two players on different squads, and in this case with very different roles. Comparing stats for a player who could take 30+ shots in a game even when she was going 13-37 against a team like Kansas against a player like Hartley who definitely could not, well that's tough. And of course if Hartley did have any stats that were better in a head-to-head, you and others might just say it was because she was on a better team.

But let's make that college match-up comparison anyway, since you insist. In that "neutral site" game down in Texas, the line was:

Sims: 4-25 FGs, 16% on FGs, 2-6 3pt, 10-10 FTs, 1 Reb, 4 PF, 20 points, 4 assists, 7 TOs, 1 steal.

Hartley: 7-18 FGs, 39% on FGs, 2-6 3pt, 3 Reb, 3 PF, 17 points, 3 assists, 4 TOs, 2 steals.

Maybe you're saying that the tremendous FT shooting and 3 more points on a ton more shots from the field and line means that Sims won the head-to-head? Personally, I 'd take Hartley's stats, even if you say it's all due to that mystical "Husky support factor." UConn always does have best defense in the nation, but some big game players like Diggins still learned how to deal with it well enough in many games.

But I was mainly responding to the view that a Husky star like Hartley (as opposed to a superstar like Moore) was getting the advantage of being on a Husky team but would be at a big disadvantage against a player like Sims in the WNBA. Maybe you missed it, but the statement was "Hartley could not match Sims in the WNBA."

We'll see more about that as time goes on and their careers play out, but again Hartley was not one of the "Three to See" and plays a different role on teams both in the college and pros. No, she is not going to toss up 27 shots like Sims in her first WNBA game, and perhaps that makes her a far lesser player.

But personally, if I was to compose an argument concerning the effects of playing on a team like UConn versus a team like Baylor that has been one of the top 3 over the last three years, I would play fair and choose two players at basically the same level and with the same role, such as Maya Moore and Odyssey Sims as seniors and in the first WNBA season. Both were the focal points of their team. Hartley was not, though it didn't stop her from going "head-to-head" against other team's stars and often coming out on top.

Once again, you throw up arguments as though someone actually made them (me? or 'Choke?) and then proceed to take them down.

"...well that's tough." Sorry, it's not tough for me because I never made or implied the same comparison that you used. Apple, meet orange.

"you and others might just say..." Probably better to pass on any further attempts at mind-reading.

"Personally, I 'd take Hartley's stats, even if you say it's all due to that mystical 'Husky support factor.' " Another bad attempt at mind-reading. More importantly, it was part of 'Chokes original point was that Hartley did have "far better stats" in that game, and that this could be due to the fact that Geno could afford to focus a lot of attention on Sims, who lacked much of a supporting cast, while Baylor would probably not throw the kitchen sink at Hartley, with so much balance and so many threats on the UCONN side. Still haven't seen this point make an appearance in your responses, even though it is central to the point of Choke's point, which is that looking ahead to a potential UCONN/ND matchup, Geno may place a lot of defensive emphasis on stopping Loyd while MM might not do the same with respect to Jefferson. I'm not sure if he's right or wrong, or how it will pan out, but it's a reasonable point to raise.

"Maybe you missed it [--- no, I didn't miss it] but the statement was 'Hartley could not match Sims in the WNBA.' " I love Bria and don't have any particular love for Sims (don't dislike her, either), but this isn't a crazy statement given that Sims was talked about as being on the short list for ROY for awhile, and ultimately made the WC team at the same position as Bria, which is the counterpoint to the first part of Choke's post, that being that Hartley had a better game statistically in their matchup down in Waco. Or maybe you missed that.


"we can all cherry pick our examples to fit our set viewpoint.." Ummm, there was no cherry picking here. A point was raised in response to a post about two specific players--Mo and Loyd. 'Choke commented, using the matchup between Bria and Sims as an analogy. Both are examples of games where the poster thought Geno might well afford to focus the defense on one player, with the opponent not having the advantage. The fact that Sims was taken at #2 and Bria at #7 while Sims had the worst of it statistically when they went to head-to-head helps 'Choke's argument, not yours. I'd be excited if Bria can continue improving to where she beats out Sims on all-star teams, US National team selections, and ultimately WNBA titles. We'll see how her first season overseas goes and how she comes out of the gate next spring in the W.

"...and perhaps that makes her a far lesser player." I know you weren't actually trying--however vaguely--to ascribe this sentiment to any posters here.

But personally, if I was to compose an argument concerning the effects of playing on a team like UConn versus a team like Baylor that has been one of the top 3 over the last three years..." It's nice that you're volunteering to be the first in the thread to do so.

 

[boontonbomber]

That's quite true. No one has seen Morgan play a college basketball game totally healthy. She's suffered with her injury through the last few years and still has been quite impressive. If anyone is going to be UNLEASHED this year, it just might be Morgan. She was the number one rated kid in high school her sophomore or junior year, until she got injured and Geno always speaks about her total game and how effortlessly she does so many different facets of the game. She had a monster game her last game before she was redshirted (while injured) so it isn't crazy to think that she might really emerge and have a spectacular year. It'd be great to see, wouldn't it????

" Effortlessly" is exactly how I see her getting things done. A healthy Morgan playing 25 minutes will average a double - double, with a bunch of assists.

 

[MilfordHusky]

Sue has indicated a preference for broadcasting and lack of interest in coaching.

I can see her interviewing Coach Taurasi in Storrs and trying not to crack up.

 

[mhshuskies]

It's only the preseason so by the end of the season it will be:
3 to see: Stewie, KML, MoJet
Need to Know: Kiah, Soniya, Morgan, Kia, Courtney, Sadie, Gabby, Tiermey and Briana

 

[Geno-ista]

Mo Jeff vs Jewell- pt guard vs a 2/3- tough comparison. I'll take both!

 

[DobbsRover2]

Once again, you throw up arguments as though someone actually made them (me? or 'Choke?) and then proceed to take them down.

"...well that's tough." Sorry, it's not tough for me because I never made or implied the same comparison that you used. Apple, meet orange.

"you and others might just say..." Probably better to pass on any further attempts at mind-reading.

"Personally, I 'd take Hartley's stats, even if you say it's all due to that mystical 'Husky support factor.' " Another bad attempt at mind-reading. More importantly, it was part of 'Chokes original point was that Hartley did have "far better stats" in that game, and that this could be due to the fact that Geno could afford to focus a lot of attention on Sims, who lacked much of a supporting cast, while Baylor would probably not throw the kitchen sink at Hartley, with so much balance and so many threats on the UCONN side. Still haven't seen this point make an appearance in your responses, even though it is central to the point of Choke's point, which is that looking ahead to a potential UCONN/ND matchup, Geno may place a lot of defensive emphasis on stopping Loyd while MM might not do the same with respect to Jefferson. I'm not sure if he's right or wrong, or how it will pan out, but it's a reasonable point to raise.

"Maybe you missed it [--- no, I didn't miss it] but the statement was 'Hartley could not match Sims in the WNBA.' " I love Bria and don't have any particular love for Sims (don't dislike her, either), but this isn't a crazy statement given that Sims was talked about as being on the short list for ROY for awhile, and ultimately made the WC team at the same position as Bria, which is the counterpoint to the first part of Choke's post, that being that Hartley had a better game statistically in their matchup down in Waco. Or maybe you missed that.


"we can all cherry pick our examples to fit our set viewpoint.." Ummm, there was no cherry picking here. A point was raised in response to a post about two specific players--Mo and Loyd. 'Choke commented, using the matchup between Bria and Sims as an analogy. Both are examples of games where the poster thought Geno might well afford to focus the defense on one player, with the opponent not having the advantage. The fact that Sims was taken at #2 and Bria at #7 while Sims had the worst of it statistically when they went to head-to-head helps 'Choke's argument, not yours. I'd be excited if Bria can continue improving to where she beats out Sims on all-star teams, US National team selections, and ultimately WNBA titles. We'll see how her first season overseas goes and how she comes out of the gate next spring in the W.

"...and perhaps that makes her a far lesser player." I know you weren't actually trying--however vaguely--to ascribe this sentiment to any posters here.

But personally, if I was to compose an argument concerning the effects of playing on a team like UConn versus a team like Baylor that has been one of the top 3 over the last three years..." It's nice that you're volunteering to be the first in the thread to do so.

Thanks for enlightening me Mike. So it's really just mainly that you shouldn't just give judgement on two players off of one head to head match. Totally agree, and I apologize for being so dense to think that anyone would think that, especially when such an earthshaking and original idea is posted here. And of course if a Husky fan is so crass as to point out that a player's stats against UConn in the last game were pretty mediocre, I'm glad that there's an Irish fan here who will spank them silly with a detailed apology for all players who have to play against UConn and how they are doomed to failure. If it happens that your team's own coach is pretty good, at least good enough to see more NC games than Geno over the last four years, and that they were also undefeated going into the last game last year, you shrug off any suggestion that a Husky player outclassed them simply by saying, "They're in the UConn system." Who needs any accountability, when you can just say, "They have Geno, and we don't."

And of course none of the Irish fans who post on the BY would ever have suggested after three match-ups in 2013 that Skylar Diggins was a far superior player to Breanna Stewart, even if all the game stats screamed it. Poor Skylar only had Muffet for a coach, and even if the ND record was way better, none of them would have had the temerity to post a message saying, "Diggins just crushed Stewart 29-5. So who's the better player?" Nah, when you're up you don't do that, and when you fear the next meeting, you just throw out a story that it's just that UConn has a better system rather than that those players are actually better. Throw up a straw dog in the vein of "Husky fans must all believe that Hartley was better than Sims because she had better stats in their match-up," pitting a very respected but #7 pick versus the #2 pick. Easy target now that the first WNBA season for them is done, and even with 40% shooting for a last place team Sims was still apparently a top ROY candidate. Could Hartley ever be in Sims' league, obviously can't be true.

Seven years ago a UConn player graduated after a problematic college career that perhaps is mainly noted for some fans by the fact that she never fully absorbed Geno's system. Still had a decent career, but she won no NCs and it can't really be said she was one of those feared cogs in Geno's development system that can totally outclass players at the same or better levels. So she was picked 30th in a very talented 2008 draft that included Parker, Fowles, Wiggins, Ajavon, Langhorne and others. And if you asked a UTenn fan if she would even last a year let alone score 900 points more than #4 pick Alexis Hornbuckle, they would have said you'd imbibed way too much moonshine. And seven years down the road, no Stanford fan would ever have thought that this UConn player would be trailing Candice Wiggins by 15 in career points. So in 2014 with no Geno as coach and few ex-Huskies around her, Charde Houston has finished off a year with the Liberty that puts her point total far ahead of the 23 players picked before her, and not far behind some of the draft's top 6, plus way ahead of Hornbuckle. Will Hartley be able to pull a similar act on some of the six players picked ahead of her seven years down the road? Who knows, but I'll pull for the Husky.

Is there success because of Geno and the system that pulls some strings? Yes, but it's the players who take the shots,

 

[MilfordHusky]

Kaleena Mosqueda-Lewis is the "three to see" all by herself. 10 times in a game. She her make a three.

 

[DaddyChoc]

I seem to remember that she hit a three or two when the game was, in essence, over. Before that, Loyd was largely putting up shots and missing and not a factor. I've seen more than a few cases of people putting up numbers when it meant virtually nothing to the team. Jim Rice of the Red Sox was that player, to me. He padded his stats when the game was well in hand, one way or another. As a Yankee fan, he was the guy I always wanted up in clutch situations because he was either going to strike out or hit into a DP. He's only in the Hall because people see the stats and not the reality of when he actually got those Homers and RBI's. Getting back to Loyd, she is a very talented lady but as mentioned, I think her numbers looked better because of some late scoring when we were cruising to a big and decisive win.

Jim Rice sighting

 

[DaddyChoc]

Thanks for enlightening me Mike. So it's really just mainly that you shouldn't just give judgement on two players off of one head to head match. Totally agree, and I apologize for being so dense to think that anyone would think that, especially when such an earthshaking and original idea is posted here. And of course if a Husky fan is so crass as to point out that a player's stats against UConn in the last game were pretty mediocre, I'm glad that there's an Irish fan here who will spank them silly with a detailed apology for all players who have to play against UConn and how they are doomed to failure. If it happens that your team's own coach is pretty good, at least good enough to see more NC games than Geno over the last four years, and that they were also undefeated going into the last game last year, you shrug off any suggestion that a Husky player outclassed them simply by saying, "They're in the UConn system." Who needs any accountability, when you can just say, "They have Geno, and we don't."

And of course none of the Irish fans who post on the BY would ever have suggested after three match-ups in 2013 that Skylar Diggins was a far superior player to Breanna Stewart, even if all the game stats screamed it. Poor Skylar only had Muffet for a coach, and even if the ND record was way better, none of them would have had the temerity to post a message saying, "Diggins just crushed Stewart 29-5. So who's the better player?" Nah, when you're up you don't do that, and when you fear the next meeting, you just throw out a story that it's just that UConn has a better system rather than that those players are actually better. Throw up a straw dog in the vein of "Husky fans must all believe that Hartley was better than Sims because she had better stats in their match-up," pitting a very respected but #7 pick versus the #2 pick. Easy target now that the first WNBA season for them is done, and even with 40% shooting for a last place team Sims was still apparently a top ROY candidate. Could Hartley ever be in Sims' league, obviously can't be true.

Seven years ago a UConn player graduated after a problematic college career that perhaps is mainly noted for some fans by the fact that she never fully absorbed Geno's system. Still had a decent career, but she won no NCs and it can't really be said she was one of those feared cogs in Geno's development system that can totally outclass players at the same or better levels. So she was picked 30th in a very talented 2008 draft that included Parker, Fowles, Wiggins, Ajavon, Langhorne and others. And if you asked a UTenn fan if she would even last a year let alone score 900 points more than #4 pick Alexis Hornbuckle, they would have said you'd imbibed way too much moonshine. And seven years down the road, no Stanford fan would ever have thought that this UConn player would be trailing Candice Wiggins by 15 in career points. So in 2014 with no Geno as coach and few ex-Huskies around her, Charde Houston has finished off a year with the Liberty that puts her point total far ahead of the 23 players picked before her, and not far behind some of the draft's top 6, plus way ahead of Hornbuckle. Will Hartley be able to pull a similar act on some of the six players picked ahead of her seven years down the road? Who knows, but I'll pull for the Husky.

Is there success because of Geno and the system that pulls some strings? Yes, but it's the players who take the shots,

 

[Fightin Choke]

I noted that it's hard to compare two players on different squads, and in this case with very different roles. Comparing stats for a player who could take 30+ shots in a game even when she was going 13-37 against a team like Kansas against a player like Hartley who definitely could not, well that's tough. And of course if Hartley did have any stats that were better in a head-to-head, you and others might just say it was because she was on a better team.

But let's make that college match-up comparison anyway, since you insist. In that "neutral site" game down in Texas, the line was:

Sims: 4-25 FGs, 16% on FGs, 2-6 3pt, 10-10 FTs, 1 Reb, 4 PF, 20 points, 4 assists, 7 TOs, 1 steal.

Hartley: 7-18 FGs, 39% on FGs, 2-6 3pt, 3 Reb, 3 PF, 17 points, 3 assists, 4 TOs, 2 steals.

Maybe you're saying that the tremendous FT shooting and 3 more points on a ton more shots from the field and line means that Sims won the head-to-head? Personally, I 'd take Hartley's stats, even if you say it's all due to that mystical "Husky support factor." UConn always does have best defense in the nation, but some big game players like Diggins still learned how to deal with it well enough in many games.

But I was mainly responding to the view that a Husky star like Hartley (as opposed to a superstar like Moore) was getting the advantage of being on a Husky team but would be at a big disadvantage against a player like Sims in the WNBA. Maybe you missed it, but the statement was "Hartley could not match Sims in the WNBA."

We'll see more about that as time goes on and their careers play out, but again Hartley was not one of the "Three to See" and plays a different role on teams both in the college and pros. No, she is not going to toss up 27 shots like Sims in her first WNBA game, and perhaps that makes her a far lesser player.

But personally, if I was to compose an argument concerning the effects of playing on a team like UConn versus a team like Baylor that has been one of the top 3 over the last three years, I would play fair and choose two players at basically the same level and with the same role, such as Maya Moore and Odyssey Sims as seniors and in the first WNBA season. Both were the focal points of their team. Hartley was not, though it didn't stop her from going "head-to-head" against other team's stars and often coming out on top.

Dobbs,
I'm not sure if you misread my comment or just decided to change the argument to one you felt like defending, but this post and the subsequent posts (responding to VAMike23) suggest you are intentionally distorting the argument. The post to which I responded stated

I can't be objective because I think the world of MoJet. But this question might be more easily answered after UCONN plays ND. Hopefully MoJet D's up against Loyd.

Reno Tony was responding to a question over which player (Loyd or Jefferson) was more deserving of being one of the "3 to see", as fans were wondering if any UConn fans would trade MoJeff for Loyd. Reno Tony was suggesting that instead of using his opinion, which he feared might be influenced over his love for MoJet, we use the statistics from the December 6th game against Notre Dame. This sort of argument is used frequently on the BY to suggest that other WCBB stars are perhaps not as good as advertised, as their stats aren't as stellar when facing the Huskies head-to-head. My post suggested that this sort of comparison was not valid, as the other star must face UConn's defense, but the UConn players only have to score against their opponent's defense. I attributed the greatness of UConn's defense to Geno's coaching AND his recruiting, as he has been stockpiling top 5 ranked recruits and has more #1 recruits than all other teams combined over the past 9 years of recruiting. (While EDD left UConn well before she ever played a game, Geno has recruited 6 of the last 9 #1-ranked recruits.)

To provide evidence to support my point that head-to-head stats are not a fair comparison of a player's ability, I pointed out that Bria Hartley outplayed Sims in the Baylor game last season, but that Sims has thus far proven to be a better basketball player, as evidenced by her rookie season in the WNBA and the World Championship tryouts.

You first accused me of cherry-picking my examples, and stated that a better comparison would be to examine Maya Moore's rookie year in the WNBA to Sims, as Sims was a higher draft pick (2nd) than Hartley (7th) but that Moore (drafter 1st) is a more appropriate comparison. You completely missed my point. The fact that Sims is more highly regarded in that she was drafter earlier and played better after graduation SUPPORTS my point that DESPITE having worse stats than Bria in head-to-head matchups, she is a better player!

Then you "reluctantly" bring up the stats of the UConn-Baylor game and again show that Bria had a better game than Sims. I did not find that surprising, as I stated it in my post to which you responded. In fact (as VAMike23 already pointed out), those data support MY argument not yours. So what exactly IS your argument then? I'm not really sure, but I believe it is that UConn players are very successful in the WNBA. I completely agree! But my argument was not that UConn players do not thrive in the WNBA. I only stated that you cannot fairly judge the value of a player by comparing head-to-head stats, as these comparisons tend to over-represent the value of UConn players.

 

[Buzzyboy]

Not gonna get into a long debate about it, but, couldn't disagree with you more regarding Jim Rice - the most feared hitter of his era. Yankee fans remember well Dave Righetti's July 4 no-hitter against the Sox in 1983. Red Sox fans remember that Righetti walked Rice two of the three times he faced him. You may have wanted Rice up in a clutch situation, but, clearly, Dave, Billy Martin, and the Yankee coaching staff did not.

I watched more Red Sox than I would have ever wanted to but being the only Yankee fan in work with a virtual armada of BoSox people, I needed to know my stuff in order not to be overwhelmed and Jim Rice helped my Yankees and many other American League fans out of more jams with strikeouts and grounding into immeasurable double plays when the game was one the line. But if the Red Sox were cruising and winning big, Jim would often put up some big numbers. Likewise, when the Sox were getting blown out, big numbers! There are exceptions to every rule but I'd much prefer him up to say someone who really got very little recognition with the bat like Dewey Evans. After Evans settled in to the Red Sox lineup (two or three years in) he became a pretty tough out and much more dangerous than Jim Rice would ever be, at least on a REGULAR basis. Obviously there were other guys in the lineup that I dreaded with men in scoring position but Jim Rice was my vote to help extinguish most Red Sox rallies. I loved him because he was a pussycat in the clutch and he helped out my Yankees big time. The few times that he hurt us was in small contrast to the times he bailed us out and I know this to be true. The only reason he is in the Hall of Fame is because baseball writers never took the time to find out where he got his numbers, in meaningless situations, at least the vast amount of the time. Are there exceptions, sure, even Bucky Dent had his moment, as most Red Sox fans will remember! Ha, ha, ha! The famous '78 collapse, though I will concede that that might have been the best Red Sox team that didn't make the playoffs ever.

 

[j66kicker]

I watched more Red Sox than I would have ever wanted to but being the only Yankee fan in work with a virtual armada of BoSox people, I needed to know my stuff in order not to be overwhelmed and Jim Rice helped my Yankees and many other American League fans out of more jams with strikeouts and grounding into immeasurable double plays when the game was one the line. But if the Red Sox were cruising and winning big, Jim would often put up some big numbers. Likewise, when the Sox were getting blown out, big numbers! There are exceptions to every rule but I'd much prefer him up to say someone who really got very little recognition with the bat like Dewey Evans. After Evans settled in to the Red Sox lineup (two or three years in) he became a pretty tough out and much more dangerous than Jim Rice would ever be, at least on a REGULAR basis. Obviously there were other guys in the lineup that I dreaded with men in scoring position but Jim Rice was my vote to help extinguish most Red Sox rallies. I loved him because he was a cat in the clutch and he helped out my Yankees big time. The few times that he hurt us was in small contrast to the times he bailed us out and I know this to be true. The only reason he is in the Hall of Fame is because baseball writers never took the time to find out where he got his numbers, in meaningless situations, at least the vast amount of the time. Are there exceptions, sure, even Bucky Dent had his moment, as most Red Sox fans will remember! Ha, ha, ha! The famous '78 collapse, though I will concede that that might have been the best Red Sox team that didn't make the playoffs ever.

Yup. As a long-time Yankee fan there have been many times I've been a little 'scared' when David Ortiz, or Manny Ramirez, stepped to the plate. Jim Rice didn't give me that same feeling.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Dobbs,
I'm not sure if you misread my comment or just decided to change the argument to one you felt like defending, but this post and the subsequent posts (responding to VAMike23) suggest you are intentionally distorting the argument. The post to which I responded stated

Reno Tony was responding to a question over which player (Loyd or Jefferson) was more deserving of being one of the "3 to see", as fans were wondering if any UConn fans would trade MoJeff for Loyd. Reno Tony was suggesting that instead of using his opinion, which he feared might be influenced over his love for MoJet, we use the statistics from the December 6th game against Notre Dame. This sort of argument is used frequently on the BY to suggest that other WCBB stars are perhaps not as good as advertised, as their stats aren't as stellar when facing the Huskies head-to-head. My post suggested that this sort of comparison was not valid, as the other star must face UConn's defense, but the UConn players only have to score against their opponent's defense. I attributed the greatness of UConn's defense to Geno's coaching AND his recruiting, as he has been stockpiling top 5 ranked recruits and has more #1 recruits than all other teams combined over the past 9 years of recruiting. (While EDD left UConn well before she ever played a game, Geno has recruited 6 of the last 9 #1-ranked recruits.)

To provide evidence to support my point that head-to-head stats are not a fair comparison of a player's ability, I pointed out that Bria Hartley outplayed Sims in the Baylor game last season, but that Sims has thus far proven to be a better basketball player, as evidenced by her rookie season in the WNBA and the World Championship tryouts.

You first accused me of cherry-picking my examples, and stated that a better comparison would be to examine Maya Moore's rookie year in the WNBA to Sims, as Sims was a higher draft pick (2nd) than Hartley (7th) but that Moore (drafter 1st) is a more appropriate comparison. You completely missed my point. The fact that Sims is more highly regarded in that she was drafter earlier and played better after graduation SUPPORTS my point that DESPITE having worse stats than Bria in head-to-head matchups, she is a better player!

Then you "reluctantly" bring up the stats of the UConn-Baylor game and again show that Bria had a better game than Sims. I did not find that surprising, as I stated it in my post to which you responded. In fact (as VAMike23 already pointed out), those data support MY argument not yours. So what exactly IS your argument then? I'm not really sure, but I believe it is that UConn players are very successful in the WNBA. I completely agree! But my argument was not that UConn players do not thrive in the WNBA. I only stated that you cannot fairly judge the value of a player by comparing head-to-head stats, as these comparisons tend to over-represent the value of UConn players.

We are pretty much on the same viewpoint Choke about one-game comparisons, and I have always disliked all the "who was the better or top or favorite Husky" posts that have been posted here. I also agree with all your kudos to the Huskies, but again as we well know, those are also setups for adulating your team when they take 6 in two years from UConn. And since you and Mike are both into the mind-game stuff, no I am not at all reluctant to bring up Bria's good head-to-head stats in a game, even if Bear or Irish fans just attribute them to her supporting cast instead of good talent.

Why turn a MoJeff-Loyd comparison to a Hartley-Sims comparison? I don't know. No one was saying Bria was a must for the "3 to See," but I'm sure you and Mike and Irish fans can dig up a reason. And yes we can all anoint players as sure locks for stardom, just as a Dodger fan I still feel that Billy Grbarkewitz was a sure thing for the Hall of Fame during his first season, but again, it's good to let things play out before we start shooting our mouths off. I'm sure the Hornbuckle fans out there still take Charde in a game of H-O-R-S-E, but the WNBA career belongs to the Husky. And I am also sure that Sims carried her team single-handedly to the regional finals last year and that as Mike says her cast lacked much of something other, a statement that I'm guessing both Davis and Agbuke with their fearsome rebounding (and Davis's 59.5% shooting) and Johnson's 6.6 apg might take some exception to, but ragging on other team's players is a fun game for some.

But right, the UConn-ND match-up will not decide whether MoJeff or Loyd is the "better" player or one to watch, nor saying that UConn has the best coach in the WCBB ensure a win. It all just gets played out.

 

[arty155]

ND fans wouldn't trade Lloyd for Jefferson either.

Indeed, ...just another link in a long, long chain of bad decisions, backing the wrong team for a WCBB National Championship.