"Edsall left the cupboard bare"

[upstater]

It isn't the QB's fault we gave up a 90-yard drive to Temple in the last two minutes.

Our QB last year finished in the middle of the Big East in QBR.

The whole team under performed. The defense too. They played under there abilities. They came up short when the game was on the line. They were sucked in on numerous trick plays.

A defense without an offense is going to eventually break down, especially late in the game. 3 and outs are poison to even the best defenses.

 

[ruskin]

This is what I'm talking about though. I'm saying the OL was put into a position to fail by the coaches.

Plus-1000000. Not very easy to block in a system where the other team has a pretty good idea what's coming, unless you're Art Shell against the Vikings. And those players are pretty rare, even at Alabama

 

[MilliniumPrince]

It isn't the QB's fault we gave up a 90-yard drive to Temple in the last two minutes.

Our QB last year finished in the middle of the Big East in QBR.

The whole team under performed. The defense too. They played under there abilities. They came up short when the game was on the line. They were sucked in on numerous trick plays.

Defense played a very good game, got no support from the offense, and ran out of gas at the end....and you call that under performing. Any one of multiple missed field goals or even one less three-and-out and we win that game. That loss was not on the Defense

 

[SubbaBub]

To the current apologists, yes, we were far from being loaded in terms of talent at offensive skill positions and our offensive line production fell off greatly from prior seasons (although I personally believe that this was solely due to change in philosophy, not dropoff in talent).

That said, those who believes that we did not have sufficient overall talent to win at least eight (pre bowl) games against the competition that we faced each of the past two seasons are kidding themselves. Anyone willing to state that Pasqualoni "inherited a trainwreck" is kidding himself.

P reliance on a walk-on QB was not the reason for the 5-win season in 2011. Proof: In 2012, we had didn't have a walk on QB and still only won 5 games. The coaching staff blew 3-4 wins (Vandy, ISU and WMU are indisputable.)

In 2012, the Oline play was atrocious. But yet again, the coaching staff blew 3-4 wins (NCST, WMU, Temple, and USF, take your pick.) The inablility to run the run ball after years of being able to run the ball can not be explained simply by the personnel. Proof: Most of the players saw the field the previous year, including the 1000 yd RB. The line was noticably underweight compared to previous years and anyone who watched knows we abandoned the smash mouth blocking scheme that was so successful. That is on the coaches.

Did Edsall's recruiting slide in his last year, probably. I bet he thought 2009 would have been his last year here. The whole point of bringing in a 60+ year old coach was to prevent a crash following the BCS season. How was the play Mrs. Lincoln? The other reason was an upgrade in recruiting. (I am not a buyer of the CT HS coaches angle as anything but frosting.) This year we will see how good a recruiter he's been because it isn't getting better as a member of the AAC.

Beating UM, MD at home and competing for the AAC title would be enough to flip my opinion. Beating Michigan isn't required but it would sure undo a lot of damage. Losing to both and going 5-4/4-4 in the AAC isn't enough to bring him back unless it is plainly obvious this team is close. Even then I'd still be looking at available upgrades.

FCF's post is the hard truth and there isn't anything else to say on this subject.

 

[huskymedic]

... and there isn't anything else to say on this subject.

Then why do people keep creating these threads...?? It's deja vu all over again. It's the same people with the same arguments on both sides - nothing new other than someone looking for attention.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

What's so hard to see that the combination of uninspired play calling AS WELL AS the lack of talent on O is the reason we've fallen off the last two years?? P and GDL rightfully should be called out for the coaching part, and people should rightfully wonder WTF Edsall was doing on the recruiting trail his last 2 years. Don't understand these threads where people insist it was one or the other. It was both. The D, while not perfect, generally lacked those problems.

We have a winner.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

Past it's expiration date.

PP or the"post?"

 

[Waquoit]

PP or the"post?"

The vanilla

 

[Carl Spackler]

On my kids lives.......I swear the first thought I had after reading Cohen's post was......only Spackler is arrogant enough to answer that directly.

Just busting your balls Carl. Well not really, cause I really did think that but.....you know what I mean.

Only trying to help, take what I write for whatever you think it's worth.

As for former OL's that saw time in front of NFL people...off the top of my head since Edsall - Ryan Krug, Keith Gray, Zach Hurd, Mike Hicks, Mike Ryan would have been invited if not for the car wreck, Beatty, Thomas. Every single one of them generated the same kind of responses. Needs work. All for the same reasons. Believe me or not, I don't care. Tavarr Closs was in the Chiefs camp in 1998 I think, and released, but he was a Skip Holtz product and was a great OL, but had off field discipline issues if I'm not mistaken.

 

[TouchdownHusky]

No one ever said Edsall couldn't spot "athletes". He did well in finding guys who could run and where aggressive. He best areas with respect to recruiting where on defense and the OL. Where is was terrible was landing QB's & WR's . . . at least the ones who went to other BCS schools and starred. He couldn't land the blue chippers on offense (the ones with the most high school attention). These players went to Top 25 schools and UConn had to make due.

 

[Carl Spackler]

This is what I'm talking about though. I'm saying the OL was put into a position to fail by the coaches.

Fair enough. I think there was calculated risk to fundamentally change the offensive concepts in this program, so that we can recruit effectively on the offensive side of the ball in the future, and in many ways it's worked, except the most important one, because the team is 10-14. We've got win more than we lose this year.

But to me, with what's happened with the conferences, our ability to recruit in the future at the level we want to be at is going to very much related to our ability to produce NFL calibre players out of college regularly across the board, we are frigging lucky to have hired a guy like P - when it comes to recruiting. I'm on record with the other things I don't like about the guy.

Ryan Wirth is going to the Ravens camp BTW. We're going to have a lot of players going to the NFL camps regularly into the future, and the OL's should start joining the group again, and hopefully this time, hanging around a lot longer.

 

[freescooter]

A defense without an offense is going to eventually break down, especially late in the game. 3 and outs are poison to even the best defenses.

That is partly correct. But our defense wasn't outstanding despite the numbers. There are other numbers that don't make the big picture. Red zone defense was not good. We were tied for 108th. Turnovers were virtually non-existent. When the offense is struggling, a pick-6 or a fumble recovery on the other team's 20 can do wonders. We were near the bottom in terms of fumble recoveries with 6 and pass interceptions, also 6. So that Defense had some warts.

 

[Carl Spackler]

No one ever said Edsall couldn't spot "athletes". He did well in finding guys who could run and where aggressive. He best areas with respect to recruiting where on defense and the OL. Where is was terrible was landing QB's & WR's . . . at least the ones who went to other BCS schools and starred. He couldn't land the blue chippers on offense (the ones with the most high school attention). These players went to Top 25 schools and UConn had to make due.

My contention is that the difficulty in recruiting QB's and WR's was a product of a calculated risk taken by Edsall on developing a competitive program from the get go in 2004 in a BCS AQ conference. BY 2009, one full reruiting cycle, we had a massive road grader OL that averaged something like 6'4" and 320 across the board, but they were all one-dimensional when it comes to playing OL, and by that I don't - DO NOT - mean that the only run blocked. THe best example I can come up with that's not technical is the golf swing one I already gave, and we had no passing game to speak of on top of it. We played great D and Special teams, and we won enough to be a top 25-50 program in the country.

The goal has to be much higher than that. I want top 10, top 5, #1.

 

[Carl Spackler]

That is partly correct. But our defense wasn't outstanding despite the numbers. There are other numbers that don't make the big picture. Red zone defense was not good. We were tied for 108th. Turnovers were virtually non-existent. When the offense is struggling, a pick-6 or a fumble recovery on the other team's 20 can do wonders. We were near the bottom in terms of fumble recoveries with 6 and pass interceptions, also 6. So that Defense had some warts.

If you continually rely on your defense to secure a lead to win games, you are going to lose many of them. Possession of the ball, with the lead on the scoreboard, is how games are won.

 

[cohenzone]

While thinking you are supporting P, you gave two examples of his buffoonery. The D was clearly in disarray before they gave up two long gains late. My mother saw it, but P didn't? He couldn't call a timeout? They weren't worth anything after the game is over. And the FG's still piss me off. Chad clearly struggles from the extreme outside hashmarks, you get a bit inside and he was pretty good. Since they were playing for the FG anyway, why wouldn't you center the ball for him? Do it just once and we win. We need a coach that isn't to old to be aware of what's happening on the field.

And because we should never forget this - a coach with any awareness or sense of the game real-time doesn't put his only QB into the game at WR (just 1 play after a hard hit) so he can get blasted again with no protection.

Who said I was supporting PP? You missed the point totally. Just like Serrano who is such a savant that he's coached 10 Super Bowl champions. What the heck was arrogant about my post? The point was, and you can ascribe the problem however you want, that the difference in the records between our past teams and the PP teams is not particularly extreme. I named 2 games. and feel free to lay them all at the feet of PP if you want, where in one the D was in"disarray", not Brown's fault, right, just PP? And in the other a very reliable kicker sucked in a game we lose in OT. Should any of those fg attempts not have been tried? Even if the O performs better, which you can argue would have avoided the need for all of those attempts, all I was saying is the record is not all ascribable to this or that and the record was only marginally worse than in past years.

And the cupboard on O was bare in key positions. I don't recall who made what comments, but there have been countless comments about how many drops the receivers have had. My big problem was the same as everyone else's. The O was totally predictable, they used the wildcat when they shouldn't have, and the worst constant bad use of personnel was not making RG a much bigger part of the attack. As for talent recognition, RE totally failed to see Easley's talent for the longest time, and PP used NW in ways most people here had pleaded for in RE's last year. That does not mean I liked the offense. I pay a lot of money for my seats and if you think I love calling the plays ahead of time because I know what's coming, ah, no. But I'm also not a fair weather fan. I'm not quitting my tickets, as a bunch of people here threatened last year. It's my university and I support them. Hiring and firing coaches is somebody else's job, so I just go to the games and share thoughts occasionally on performance on this board.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Come on Cohen, don't you know that everybody's innocent in Shawshank, and everybody's a championship winnign football expert in here. LOL.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I can only think of 2 OL who were drafted.

Who else other than Thomas and Beatty? Am I missing someone? The only two who were drafted are earning millions and have stuck. That's good however you cut it.

With Thomas, it's another story. Combined high school and college experience is only 3 years. He had a huge learning curve.

As for the 7 step drops, when you repeatedly drop back 7 or 9, the edge rushers come up field each time. They WILL get by the tackles, and the tackles can't do anything about it, especially when the QB is taught to drop back instead of step up in the pocket. Whitmer never had a short 3 step drop, never steps up in the pocket, anything to offset the edge rushers, or to close the gaps between the lineman.

On the QB drops, I don't know anyone, that actually coaches a 9 step drop. Not sure where you get that. Not questioning it, just not something that I'm familiar with. In playing offensive tackle, one of your goals, in pass protection is drive that pass rusher down field (or upfield) depending on how you're looking at it, and then give him a solid shove way past the pocket. A tackle isolated one on one on a pass rusher in a passing block, on the edge of the formation, shouldn't get beat to the inside. that's their primary responsibility. if they've driven the pass rusher outside shoulder and upfield past the QB, or have held their ground physically, and not be driven backward they've done their job properly. It's unrealistic to expect a block to be sustained for more than a few seconds at most.

You also seem to be trying to combine the QB drop with the blocking. THe QB foot drops, if the offense is designed with that to be important, are tied to the pass receiver's feet, not the OL's feet and blocking scheme. If it's a 7 step drop, when that QB hits his drop, that should be the first part of his throwing motion and the ball should be coming out to a receiver who's 7 steps off the LOS (if you're that anal about it in coaching) should have him in a certain spot on the field.

 

[freescooter]

If you continually rely on your defense to secure a lead to win games, you are going to lose many of them. Possession of the ball, with the lead on the scoreboard, is how games are won.

Teams that win the turnover battle also have a distinct advantage. Now I'll grant you we turned the ball over too often but that doesn't let the defense off the hook. Six INTs? Sorry, but that is awful. And getting the ball with a short field, especially when your offense is your weak link can have multiple positive benefits. The biggest, in my mind is creating situations where you have to drive 30 or 20 or 15 yards for points. UConn seemed to always be in a position where a 70+ yard drive was required.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I'm not too familiar with Don Brown's schemes, it's pretty hard to figure out looking at it with limited access. I do know the guy is a raving lunatic, and I mean that in a good way. For real, a good way. The guy is a great guy. But football wise, I"ve always had the impression that his defenses play with his personality, and that's chaos. What I mean by that, is that creating confusion, in the offense is priority #1. When Edsall was head coach, emphasizing turnovers was priority #1. Sit back and play space control, keep in front of you defense and wait for mistakes, and strip the ball. We were fantastic at stripping balls, and creating fumbles on defense, adn you get good at that, by practicing it constantly. You have to. My guess, is that when DB took over the defense, the amount of practice time spent on practicing stripping balls out of an offensive players hands went down. As for the # of interceptions, it's hard to draw conclusions there, becuase interceptions tend to be very hard to categorize as to reason. The best corners, don't usually have the ball thrown their way, and when you play man-man coverage vs. zone coverages, it can be harder to pick off balls, and we have played against a pretty decent lineup of college quarterbacks in the past two seasons.

 

[upstater]

On the QB drops, I don't know anyone, that actually coaches a 9 step drop. Not sure where you get that. Not questioning it, just not something that I'm familiar with. In playing offensive tackle, one of your goals, in pass protection is drive that pass rusher down field (or upfield) depending on how you're looking at it, and then give him a solid shove way past the pocket. A tackle isolated one on one on a pass rusher in a passing block, on the edge of the formation, shouldn't get beat to the inside. that's their primary responsibility. if they've driven the pass rusher outside shoulder and upfield past the QB, or have held their ground physically, and not be driven backward they've done their job properly. It's unrealistic to expect a block to be sustained for more than a few seconds at most.

You also seem to be trying to combine the QB drop with the blocking. THe QB foot drops, if the offense is designed with that to be important, are tied to the pass receiver's feet, not the OL's feet and blocking scheme. If it's a 7 step drop, when that QB hits his drop, that should be the first part of his throwing motion and the ball should be coming out to a receiver who's 7 steps off the LOS (if you're that anal about it in coaching) should have him in a certain spot on the field.

I know all this. I watched the QB all last year. He NEVER steps into the pocket. Not even on long drops. Never a 3 step drop.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I know all this. I watched the QB all last year. He NEVER steps into the pocket. Not even on long drops. Never a 3 step drop.

again, fair enough. ONe of the things I love about football, is that there is so much to look at, and everybody gets different impressions of what's happening. I'd love to have a video projector (did I just date myself) and sit down and figure out what you're talking about as it's explained.

All I can say in response, is that what you're saying makes no sense to me, and I'm not questioning it, just that I don't understand what you're seeing. I saw a QB that, for the first time, in years, was able to do all three - 3,5,7 step drop and ball out. His biggest problem, IMNSHO, was deciding when NOT to release the ball, and again IMNSHO, when a QB is being coached to 3,5 or 7 drop from under center and let it fly, the only time you're going to have a QB stepping up into a pass protection pocket, is when he's failed to release the ball when he was supposed to (b/c the receivers weren't open, or the defensive coverage changed or something) and the play is actually broken down, and the QB is now buying time with his feet.

and with that said, there were plenty of times last year, where I saw a QB in a 3,5, or 7 step drop but failed to release the ball and got creamed, while trying to step up and or avoid a rush. happened more later in the year, when he wasn't throwing as much into bad places.

All of the other stuff that you've mentioned all points to one thing. Our offensive line foot speed was pretty slow last year. Us fans, all we can do is argue back and forth, as to why that was, coaching, decision making, playing slow in your head on the OL, or simply not having very fast feet and footwork talent wise, a combination of both? We can argue all day. Plenty of evidence in any view.

The fact is our OL played slow, AND we had failed blocking assignments from the backfield on many, many occasions as well. WE got to block a hell of a lot better this year both from the OL unit, and the offense as a whole. Having receivers that can create separation and catch the ball is a big thing too. And a QB that can throw on target, and a running back that is regular threat to either run over the first guy, or make the first guy miss......

 

[upstater]

again, fair enough. ONe of the things I love about football, is that there is so much to look at, and everybody gets different impressions of what's happening. I'd love to have a video projector (did I just date myself) and sit down and figure out what you're talking about as it's explained.

All I can say in response, is that what you're saying makes no sense to me, and I'm not questioning it, just that I don't understand what you're seeing. I saw a QB that, for the first time, in years, was able to do all three - 3,5,7 step drop and ball out. His biggest problem, IMNSHO, was deciding when NOT to release the ball, and again IMNSHO, when a QB is being coached to 3,5 or 7 drop from under center and let it fly, the only time you're going to have a QB stepping up into a pass protection pocket, is when he's failed to release the ball when he was supposed to (b/c the receivers weren't open, or the defensive coverage changed or something) and the play is actually broken down, and the QB is now buying time with his feet.

and with that said, there were plenty of times last year, where I saw a QB in a 3,5, or 7 step drop but failed to release the ball and got creamed, while trying to step up and or avoid a rush. happened more later in the year, when he wasn't throwing as much into bad places.

All of the other stuff that you've mentioned all points to one thing. Our offensive line foot speed was pretty slow last year. Us fans, all we can do is argue back and forth, as to why that was, coaching, decision making, playing slow in your head on the OL, or simply not having very fast feet and footwork talent wise, a combination of both? We can argue all day. Plenty of evidence in any view.

The fact is our OL played slow, AND we had failed blocking assignments from the backfield on many, many occasions as well. WE got to block a hell of a lot better this year both from the OL unit, and the offense as a whole. Having receivers that can create separation and catch the ball is a big thing too. And a QB that can throw on target, and a running back that is regular threat to either run over the first guy, or make the first guy miss......

We're just emphasizing different things. If you're always signalling to the D the same step drops, if the safest place on the field (the pocket) is never used, if you're running on 1st and passing on 3rd, you give the D a huge advantage. I saw edge rushers close on Whitmer constantly, within seconds, because he was way back there, and the tackles were chasing the rushers.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Who said I was supporting PP? You missed the point totally. Just like Serrano who is such a savant that he's coached 10 Super Bowl champions. What the heck was arrogant about my post? The point was, and you can ascribe the problem however you want, that the difference in the records between our past teams and the PP teams is not particularly extreme. I named 2 games. and feel free to lay them all at the feet of PP if you want, where in one the D was in"disarray", not Brown's fault, right, just PP? And in the other a very reliable kicker sucked in a game we lose in OT. Should any of those fg attempts not have been tried? Even if the O performs better, which you can argue would have avoided the need for all of those attempts, all I was saying is the record is not all ascribable to this or that and the record was only marginally worse than in past years.

And the cupboard on O was bare in key positions. I don't recall who made what comments, but there have been countless comments about how many drops the receivers have had. My big problem was the same as everyone else's. The O was totally predictable, they used the wildcat when they shouldn't have, and the worst constant bad use of personnel was not making RG a much bigger part of the attack. As for talent recognition, RE totally failed to see Easley's talent for the longest time, and PP used NW in ways most people here had pleaded for in RE's last year. That does not mean I liked the offense. I pay a lot of money for my seats and if you think I love calling the plays ahead of time because I know what's coming, ah, no. But I'm also not a fair weather fan. I'm not quitting my tickets, as a bunch of people here threatened last year. It's my university and I support them. Hiring and firing coaches is somebody else's job, so I just go to the games and share thoughts occasionally on performance on this board.

Uh, chief, I didn't say your post was arrogant. I was joking with Carl (hope you took it as a joke Spackler).

 

[Carl Spackler]

We're just emphasizing different things. If you're always signalling to the D the same step drops, if the safest place on the field (the pocket) is never used, if you're running on 1st and passing on 3rd, you give the D a huge advantage. I saw edge rushers close on Whitmer constantly, within seconds, because he was way back there, and the tackles were chasing the rushers.

See, this is what I love. I just didn't see it that way, and this would get entertaining, if we were in the same room with a video projector and all kinds of cutups to play back and forth.

I think that for the most part, our tackles played pretty well in typical pass rush situations, and exhibited pretty good lateral foot speed. It was bad early on, but I think they improved later, and Bennett and Friend were actually pretty good 1-1 in pass protection isolations late in the season. I don't think it was common for our tackles to be beaten in a 1-1 iso to the outside shoulder. I think that in many cases, what may appear to have been an edge rusher, was actually a player that shot through one of the G-T gaps as a result of missed assignment. Whether it be a blocking call from the QB, or the C, and was a failure along the line, or in many cases was a failure from the backfield to pick up a block, resulted in there actually being no pocket for Whitmer to step into, should he not release the ball quick enough on his foot drop. It was a mess, our blocking, a hot mess. I give Whitmer a lot of credit, he got rocked over and over, and is tough as nails that kid, got to protect him this year though. I can recall pretty clearly some plays against Syracuse, where the blocking failures were not on the LOS, but from the backfield. There were plenty of blocking failures all season long, it actually did get better, but we were limited along the line in other ways physically too. A hot mess.

It's got to click this year, though. No excuses.

 

[cohenzone]

Uh, chief, I didn't say your post was arrogant. I was joking with Carl (hope you took it as a joke Spackler).

Sorry if I misunderstood. The syntax must have confused me, chief.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Uh, chief, I didn't say your post was arrogant. I was joking with Carl (hope you took it as a joke Spackler).

I often don't know who's talking to who, or why, or what about, or if it's important or not, and I'm not upset about anything. It's highly probably that cohen was referring to me as a savant, because well, you know - I am. LOL.

 

[cohenzone]

Come on Cohen, don't you know that everybody's innocent in Shawshank, and everybody's a championship winnign football expert in here. LOL.

Don't you ever talk about Shawshank that way.

 

[freescooter]

Carl,

I agree that they probably didn't practice stripping the ball as often under Brown. But the interceptions are a mystery. When you have two pro prospects at the corners you would think that you wouldn't rank near the bottom of the entire NCAA in picks. We were something like 109th. One was a pick six. In 2010 for comparison, we had 20 picks, 5 of which were returned for tds. We averaged 24 yards per pick, vs 12 last year. In close games, and we had several, those things can be the difference. It seemed that we never had a short field. A pick at mid field returned to the opponents 25, or a pick at the 25 returned for 6 can really turn the tide. We did none of that. We played some good quarterbacks, but not that good.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Interceptions are hard to figure out. I completely agree. It's hard to identify trends and why. There are plenty of reasons that could explain why the INT's were down. For me personally, we happened to play against a really solid group of senior and/or experienced QB's for the most part in the past two seasons, and that more than anything is probably the best explanation. Bridgewater, Nassib, the guy from WMU, NC State QB, BJ Daniels, CIncy QB, Pitt QB was a senior too i think right? Geno Smith. How many of those guys are in the NFL now or on their way?

I suppose the way to test that theory, would be to chart who the INT's came against in the past 2 seasons. My guess is that they didn't come against those guys as much as the Buffalo's, Maryland, Iowa St, etc. I'm not going to take the time to do that though.

 

[upstater]

See, this is what I love. I just didn't see it that way, and this would get entertaining, if we were in the same room with a video projector and all kinds of cutups to play back and forth.

I think that for the most part, our tackles played pretty well in typical pass rush situations, and exhibited pretty good lateral foot speed. It was bad early on, but I think they improved later, and Bennett and Friend were actually pretty good 1-1 in pass protection isolations late in the season. I don't think it was common for our tackles to be beaten in a 1-1 iso to the outside shoulder. I think that in many cases, what may appear to have been an edge rusher, was actually a player that shot through one of the G-T gaps as a result of missed assignment. Whether it be a blocking call from the QB, or the C, and was a failure along the line, or in many cases was a failure from the backfield to pick up a block, resulted in there actually being no pocket for Whitmer to step into, should he not release the ball quick enough on his foot drop. It was a mess, our blocking, a hot mess. I give Whitmer a lot of credit, he got rocked over and over, and is tough as nails that kid, got to protect him this year though. I can recall pretty clearly some plays against Syracuse, where the blocking failures were not on the LOS, but from the backfield. There were plenty of blocking failures all season long, it actually did get better, but we were limited along the line in other ways physically too. A hot mess.

It's got to click this year, though. No excuses.

I pointed out what I saw frequently on this board, and we discussed it several times. I said look how well the guards are playing because the pocket was there. It was always the tackles that were in trouble.