Do basketball coaches teach players to “Flop” in order to draw a foul?

[MD#12Fan]

1970's. I was there. Yes, it was taught! Coaches ran drills, in which the defender established position in front of the offensive player and then fell back. Also taught was making the "umph" sound, so the ref would be sure to see it.
It was before Coach K. I worked his camp at Duke in 1983 and I actually took a charge on Coach K in the counselor games. I actually called it and he told me I wasn't set. Oh well.
Long story short, it's a part of the game. Flopping has no place in the game. Refs can decide whether it's flopping or legitimate position by the defender. They can differentiate between the two. You can't be off-balance or you look like you're flopping. If you're there and you fall back, it should be a charge.
A flop is a flop and a charge is a charge. Respectfully, AE looked like a purple and gold mop on Monday. She shouldn't have expected a ton of calls. The call on PB was seriously questionable.

 

[4evrwbbfan]

Did you not see the image in post #1? Looks like she has been hit by a truck...

I watched that sequence several times and I think it should have been a no call, or an unfortunate trip and foul on Henderson, not an offensive foul on Paige. And I do not think Henderson looks like she has been hit by a truck. Clearly, there was at least some contact. I think their feet may have gotten briefly tangled up. Paige either stumbled or tripped over Henderson’s foot. She was clearly losing her balance. Her left arm contact with Destinny was nothing. Henderson’s arms in the air and staggering back were not, in my opinion, a flop. I think she was also regaining her balance from whatever happened and then reacted with an “I didn’t do anything, she just fell”. Bottom line, ref blew the call.

 

[MD#12Fan]

Charging is a legitimate part of basketball. Flopping is the opposite.
Think of it this way: What is the alternative to a defender falling back after establishing position? The answer is collision. Is that the direction the game wants to take? Who has the advantage in these collisions? The bigger player! With the charge scenario, any player is entitled to a spot on the floor and can establish that spot. So, a rule change or emphasis away from allowing legitimate charges will result in more collisions, which will produce more injuries and an unfair advantage in this case to the larger, stronger player. Picture standing legitimately in front of a hard-charging LeBron or Zion or Barkley in the day. Suicide?
Remember the key- you have the right to that spot on the floor.
IMO many rules are changed over time because they are difficult for officials to call. That's not a good reason sometimes. Rules always have consequences. Does the rule bring about the desired outcome?
Flopping has no place in sports. It's cheating. Where did it start? The world's game: soccer or football.
More work for the refs: flopping can have consequences. The NBA's working on it. Checked Harden's stats lately? 2 FT's and the ball? Something like that. Sorry refs- you gotta earn that $50 a game.

 

[TCC Kid]

Sadly, a little of both. Some coaches do teach and encourage flopping. And the players, as young as 11-15 years old, watch games on TV and see NBA/WNBA/College players and during games, you see the flopping. They are pretty smart. They see that sometimes, especially at the high school level, that flopping is a game changer.

I may be so bold to say: Coaches teach contact acting classes. I know this is picking on ND but I'm only speaking from what I have seen--Notre Dame Women were taught to initiate contact and typically they drew fouls. I don't attend Geno's practices, I have never read his practices manual, but if I were Geno/Chris/Valley, et al until the game officials STOP awarding fouls to those attacked by those initiating the foul,; I'd be teaching the finer points of FLOPPING. If Geno isn't he should be. It's like being in a war where the other guy breaks all the rules and your side is forced to live by morality rules--and your side is getting massacred.
Father Barthemeau was our coach. As he taught every dirty trick in basketball in the books and some never seen before he repeated over and over and over: "these are not for YOU to use but so you'll recognize them if they should happen". Knowing full well, when the right opportunity arose, we'd rise to the occasion. Flopping is a dirty trick.

 

[MD#12Fan]

I may be so bold to say: Coaches teach contact acting classes. I know this is picking on ND but I'm only speaking from what I have seen--Notre Dame Women were taught to initiate contact and typically they drew fouls. I don't attend Geno's practices, I have never read his practices manual, but if I were Geno/Chris/Valley, et al until the game officials STOP awarding fouls to those attacked by those initiating the foul,; I'd be teaching the finer points of FLOPPING. If Geno isn't he should be. It's like being in a war where the other guy breaks all the rules and your side is forced to live by morality rules--and your side is getting massacred.
Father Barthemeau was our coach. As he taught every dirty trick in basketball in the books and some never seen before he repeated over and over and over: "these are not for YOU to use but so you'll recognize them if they should happen". Knowing full well, when the right opportunity arose, we'd rise to the occasion. Flopping is a dirty trick.

I know that I'm overly idealistic. I would prefer that this conversation kept to the rules of the game. We could end up in some dark alleyways! I might argue that the reason a distortion of the rules occurs is because the actual rules are not enforced properly. Charges are charges, blocks are blocks, and flops are flops. Does college hoops have a penalty for what is deemed a flop?
In my long career around hoops, I only know about teaching how to take charges. However, we were taught to "feel out" the refs in the beginning of a game to see how they were calling it. Another variable is the learned behavior of the player. (remember conditioning in your Psych 101 class, Pavlov's dog) Players learn to flop because it works more times than not. I had a buddy in high school who would fall down when setting a screen. I guess he would get calls. But the point of setting the screen is to block the defender, not flop all over the court. Slight analogy to a defender getting position and falling before the player runs into them. The defender's job is to cut the offensive player off and if they continue on that path with your position established, taking the charge is the right play, not before the player hits you. That's a flop. Very tight! Why it's hard to call. I'm skinny, PB is skinny, doesn't take much for her to go flying. AE on the other hand. Come on!
My earlier post: basketball does not want to lose the charge because it's being abused. Maybe PB? It's a close call! Wait another second for them to actually run into you, then fall back. (sorry, it may hurt sometimes)

 

[oldude]

I never asserted that it's OK, and my last line was spoken facetiously. I was responding to OP's question about whether "flopping" is taught. It most assuredly is. (FWIW I didn't see what happened between my teammate and the guy he was guarding, so I don't know how much of an act it was. But it was right after our coach told us to try and draw an offensive foul on the inbound play, so ...)


More than 20 years. As a 7th grader in the mid-80s, in my first year of competitive basketball, one day early in the season our coach had us practice taking charges by falling back upon contact from the offensive player. While I still consider him a very good coach (who btw also taught us good fundamental defensive stance as well), I'm certain he wasn't a pioneer in the field of taking charges.

I started playing basketball in the early 60’s. I either came along too early for flopping lessons, or I just wasn’t paying attention.

 

[MD#12Fan]

I never asserted that it's OK, and my last line was spoken facetiously. I was responding to OP's question about whether "flopping" is taught. It most assuredly is. (FWIW I didn't see what happened between my teammate and the guy he was guarding, so I don't know how much of an act it was. But it was right after our coach told us to try and draw an offensive foul on the inbound play, so ...)


More than 20 years. As a 7th grader in the mid-80s, in my first year of competitive basketball, one day early in the season our coach had us practice taking charges by falling back upon contact from the offensive player. While I still consider him a very good coach (who btw also taught us good fundamental defensive stance as well), I'm certain he wasn't a pioneer in the field of taking charges.

Charges are legitimate basketball plays according to longstanding rules of the game and flops are fake plays designed to fool the officials. I think you make many good points overall, but I feel like you are conflating the two plays. (if you can stomach it, read my 2 posts)

 

[TCC Kid]

I know that I'm overly idealistic. I would prefer that this conversation kept to the rules of the game. We could end up in some dark alleyways! I might argue that the reason a distortion of the rules occurs is because the actual rules are not enforced properly. Charges are charges, blocks are blocks, and flops are flops. Does college hoops have a penalty for what is deemed a flop?
In my long career around hoops, I only know about teaching how to take charges. However, we were taught to "feel out" the refs in the beginning of a game to see how they were calling it. Another variable is the learned behavior of the player. (remember conditioning in your Psych 101 class, Pavlov's dog) Players learn to flop because it works more times than not. I had a buddy in high school who would fall down when setting a screen. I guess he would get calls. But the point of setting the screen is to block the defender, not flop all over the court. Slight analogy to a defender getting position and falling before the player runs into them. The defender's job is to cut the offensive player off and if they continue on that path with your position established, taking the charge is the right play, not before the player hits you. That's a flop. Very tight! Why it's hard to call. I'm skinny, PB is skinny, doesn't take much for her to go flying. AE on the other hand. Come on!
My earlier post: basketball does not want to lose the charge because it's being abused. Maybe PB? It's a close call! Wait another second for them to actually run into you, then fall back. (sorry, it may hurt sometimes)

Few people beat me in Idealistic. I believe in the truth, honor, apple pie and the American way. I believe in following the rules. My teeth grit over minor not following rules. But when rules like : The person that initiated the contact committed the foul. are violated--the rules are thrown out for some, if true, throw out the rules for all. That comes from the fairness gene. Of course, I determine the rules. That is only fair.
Players like you,me, Paige can take a hit and have. It is part of playing hard. Some players get hurt thats unfortunate but it's part of the game. Play and maybe get hurt , I play or sit down and watch .
I think charging fouls are good part of the game. Flopping, not so much. Taking the charge is valid, if you establish your position, no leaning, no twisting, no moving. No arguing with that.
Charging taking a charge is not flopping. The discussion is on flopping. You realize that no matter the rules charging or not will always be a judgement call. Flopping, or initiating contact and getting a call your way is some thing I would like to see stopped. Those calls can (with a degree of accuracy) be made.

 

[MD#12Fan]

Few people beat me in Idealistic. I believe in the truth, honor, apple pie and the American way. I believe in following the rules. My teeth grit over minor not following rules. But when rules like : The person that initiated the contact committed the foul. are violated--the rules are thrown out for some, if true, throw out the rules for all. That comes from the fairness gene. Of course, I determine the rules. That is only fair.
Players like you,me, Paige can take a hit and have. It is part of playing hard. Some players get hurt thats unfortunate but it's part of the game. Play and maybe get hurt , I play or sit down and watch .
I think charging fouls are good part of the game. Flopping, not so much. Taking the charge is valid, if you establish your position, no leaning, no twisting, no moving. No arguing with that.
Charging taking a charge is not flopping. The discussion is on flopping. You realize that no matter the rules charging or not will always be a judgement call. Flopping, or initiating contact and getting a call your way is some thing I would like to see stopped. Those calls can (with a degree of accuracy) be made.

100%
I'd even say that the reason for having any rules at all is for one reason: fairness. A good bit of my teaching career was elementary. You gotta be fair first and foremost. And if a rule is unenforceable, you get rid of the rule. Gotta be clear! A hoop court or a playground at recess is not a court of law. (whew- thank God, we got enough of them)
You're right, what do we do when everyone cheats or when the cheaters prosper. (BadBoys arguably)
What did Lance Armstrong do about the rampant cheating in pro cycling? We know how that story went.
I hope like heck that the charge is not "legislated" out of the game because the refs can't call it right and/or the flop takes over the game.
BTW IMO you can't talk flop without talking charges. The flop is the evil cousin of the charge. There is a point on the continuum where they almost touch. Do you think the SC player actually ran into PB on the baseline, or did PB anticipate getting hit, and fall back prematurely? Call your witness.......

 

[ConwayGmck]

Few people beat me in Idealistic. I believe in the truth, honor, apple pie and the American way. I believe in following the rules. My teeth grit over minor not following rules. But when rules like : The person that initiated the contact committed the foul. are violated--the rules are thrown out for some, if true, throw out the rules for all. That comes from the fairness gene. Of course, I determine the rules. That is only fair.
Players like you,me, Paige can take a hit and have. It is part of playing hard. Some players get hurt thats unfortunate but it's part of the game. Play and maybe get hurt , I play or sit down and watch .
I think charging fouls are good part of the game. Flopping, not so much. Taking the charge is valid, if you establish your position, no leaning, no twisting, no moving. No arguing with that.
Charging taking a charge is not flopping. The discussion is on flopping. You realize that no matter the rules charging or not will always be a judgement call. Flopping, or initiating contact and getting a call your way is some thing I would like to see stopped. Those calls can (with a degree of accuracy) be made.

You don't believe in baseball, hot dogs, and Chevrolet????

 

[ConwayGmck]

100%
I'd even say that the reason for having any rules at all is for one reason: fairness. A good bit of my teaching career was elementary. You gotta be fair first and foremost. And if a rule is unenforceable, you get rid of the rule. Gotta be clear! A hoop court or a playground at recess is not a court of law. (whew- thank God, we got enough of them)
You're right, what do we do when everyone cheats or when the cheaters prosper. (BadBoys arguably)
What did Lance Armstrong do about the rampant cheating in pro cycling? We know how that story went.
I hope like heck that the charge is not "legislated" out of the game because the refs can't call it right and/or the flop takes over the game.
BTW IMO you can't talk flop without talking charges. The flop is the evil cousin of the charge. There is a point on the continuum where they almost touch. Do you think the SC player actually ran into PB on the baseline, or did PB anticipate getting hit, and fall back prematurely? Call your witness.......

Of course, you can. It is the sole reason why flopping is looked upon with disdain. People learning the craft of flopping, without taking contact sufficient enough to result in a player being displaced from their set defensive position. You know, a defensive player does not even have to be knocked down to the floor, for it to be a legitimate charging violation. There are occasionally charge/offensive fouls called for lowering of the shoulder, giving a hip shiv that moves the defensive player out of set position, but that defensive player is still standing upright.

That a defensive player even falls to the floor, is very often a form of flopping. To make darned sure the officials see that the player was displaced. You can't be displaced much more than by being sent prone on the floor, unless you go flying off into the heavenly spaces like the image showed the player being above. Falling down may just be an attempt to show a legitimate charge being committed. The issue with "flopping" is when players fall down to imply that they took contact to warrant a charge call, when they actually haven't. An effort to fabricate a foul.

And they flop from time to time to try to imply they were elbowed in the side, pushed aside by an opposing player while battling for positioning: regardless of whether the opposing player even has the ball. In that scenario it's an offensive foul, but not technically a charge. But even the flopping player's team could be on offense, and he's trying to post up, and then flops. Then it's a defensive foul, if he can fool the official into giving him the call. All flopping scenarios, but no charging scenarios.....

 

[eebmg]

Alot of people seem to be taking this too literally. The essence of the question seems to me to be. Is it advisable to theatrically enhance contact to draw a call.

Normally I would say that will ultimately so often calling fouls not with their eyes but with anticipation and acting, maybe it is worth it in critical moments.

 

[Blacketh’D]

I don’t think it’s taught. Obviously at this level the players are who they are and the coaches will tell players what refs will look for. I don’t think college coaches are teaching flopping. Or even youth coaches. This isn’t a key and peele sketch. They watch the nba, they see how the players are around them growing up. I grew up playing soccer and we know how that sport is viewed when it comes to flopping. At some point it becomes a conscious choice in a players game to get an upper hand. No ones going to tell you no if it works and they aren’t going to Gordon Bombay hold a practice where you learn how to take a dive. Players are their own people who make their own choices. Coaching is not a do what your told kind of business.

 

[HHH]

I had no idea that Beyonce suited up for Baylor! Then again...she is a TEXAN.

Haha…that’s not Beyonce, but even Queen Bey herself couldn’t have sold it any better than Carrington did that night!

 

[HHH]

Maybe institute an unsportsmanlike one shot ‘technical’ foul with possession retained?

In June the NCAA Playing Rules Oversight Panel “….did not support a proposal that would have allowed officials to immediately assess a Class B technical foul to a player who faked being fouled…The panel would like for the Men’s Basketball Rules Committee to gather more feedback from coaches over the next year on this proposal…The Men’s Basketball Rules Committee proposed the change because members think adding the technical foul component is the next step in hopes of eliminating this tactic from the game.”

Sounds like help may be coming....

 

[HHH]

“Teaching kids to flop? Who me?”

 

[HHH]

....so we didn't get hurt if we fell off the ladder reaching into the peach basket.

That must have been right before they discovered that cutting the bottom out of the peach basket greatly improved the flow of the game….

 

[HHH]

Al has the further distinction of being the first basketball player to eat oysters.

Wow. Now that’s what I call real courage!

 

[HHH]

But it was right after our coach told us to try and draw an offensive foul on the inbound play, so ...)

In the immortal words of Joe Montana in attempting to defend Tom Brady and the New England Patriots: “If you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying!”

 

[HHH]

Bottom line, ref blew the call.

I’ve watched the replay several times as well, and I’m fairly certain Henderson was exaggerating the contact in an attempt to draw a foul call (this after just having had her hands all over Bueckers). I do think however that she may have been just as surprised as the rest of us that it actually worked. Even Dawn Staley’s friend and mentor Carolyn Peck was moved to say “…I don’t quite understand that either…that’s just a little ticky-tack foul, c’mon now!”

 

[HHH]

Father Barthemeau was our coach. As he taught every dirty trick in basketball in the books and some never seen before he repeated over and over and over: "these are not for YOU to use but so you'll recognize them if they should happen". Knowing full well, when the right opportunity arose, we'd rise to the occasion. Flopping is a dirty trick.

“Angels With Dirty Faces and Seats of Their Pants”? Hey, maybe that’s how The Dead End Kids got their dead ends!

This clip from the movie kind of reminds me of Monday’s UConn / SC game. In fact, it might even be where Dee Kantner learned how to throw up the ball for UConn games!

 

[HHH]

Connecticut is notorious for decades of the moving screen

I can’t verify the accuracy of that statement, but I will say that while watching the Olympics 3x3 this past summer, there was one play where Stefanie Dolson handed off the ball and then basically escorted the dribbler to the basket, with nary a whistle to be heard. I remember thinking at the time, Man I’ll bet Stef is going to miss playing by these international rules!

 

[HHH]

I worked his camp at Duke in 1983 and I actually took a charge on Coach K in the counselor games. I actually called it and he told me I wasn't set. Oh well.

Personally, I think your feet were set. Pretty cool though that you had the opportunity to work at one of Coach K’s camps. Are you the person who just paid $1 million for 4 tickets to his final game?

 

[MD#12Fan]

Personally, I think your feet were set. Pretty cool though that you had the opportunity to work at one of Coach K’s camps. Are you the person who just paid $1 million for 4 tickets to his final game?

I was assisting my HS buddy at a private school in Alexandria, VA and we had a 6’9” left-handed center that everybody was after, including Coach K. I rode my buddy’s coattails and landed counselor gig at his camp. It was early in his Duke tenure. Solid camp. Some old-time Duke icons there- Gene Banks, Jeff Mullins. I swear iI told him, “I knew that was coming last week”, when he balked at my call. My young, brash days. Funny, that progressed to old, brash days. They don’t call it brash with old folks.