Defining a good player (or good play) | The Boneyard

Defining a good player (or good play)

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HuskyNan

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During the ND game thread, I disagreed with another fan on what constituted good play. I thought Saniya played well, was steady (an excellent trait in the point guard of a young team) and made some great passes. The other fan felt steady play and good passes weren't enough, although he declined to elaborate what would have been called good play.

Earlier in the season, people wanted Kia out of the starting lineup because she wasn't scoring. However, her defense has been stellar and she's currently averaging 4.5 assists a game and has a 2.25 assist to turnover ratio. (Saniya has only 5 turnovers for the year, by the way, part of that "steady" thing)

Are people judging how well someone is playing by her scoring stats? I would be interested in opinions on this topic.

ON EDIT: This is not a thread to judge Saniya or Kia. I'm asking people to define what a generic good player is. My mentions of Saniya and Kia were for illustrative purposes only.
 
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Jimbo

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Not sure about everyone's opinion, but I can make a pretty fair guess as to Geno's. He has said many times that shooting/scoring well is not at all the same thing as playing well. I think that about sums it up.
 

victor64

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I think scoring is only one part of the equation to determine whether somebody is playing well. Based on your observation about Saniya, the debate in my mind as to why she does not play more in big games continues.

To focus on Saniya, I am curious about the quick hook she gets and the seemingly lack of trust Geno has when the game is close. Crystal Dangerfield had five turnovers and in my opinion forced some shots but yet stayed in.

There are questions about Saniya. She either will spot up for a three or penetrate all the way to the basket. Why no mid range jumper? Does the staff think she is not quite quick enough to guard elite points on the other team? Even though her turnovers are way down, does she worry the staff when she penetrates? Do they not like her on the floor at the same time with Crystal Dangerfield?Don't know any of these.

The FSU game demonstrated that she is willing to step up when the game is close. I don't think Kia has to play 40. I think they could kick up Saniya's minutes by two or three and still be effective.
 

oldude

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Yes, I agree that Saniya is steady, I would occasionally describe her play as "careful", essentially she tries not to make mistakes rather than making something happen. I certainly agree that she does not have to score to have an impact, but she does have to make something happen. There have been several games where Saniya's stat line is zeros across the board. While everyone appreciates the fact that she stepped up and scored during the 2nd half of the FL ST game, I think her best game was vs Depaul where she had 6 pts, 4 assists & 3 steals with 0 turnovers....no that is making something happen.
 
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During the ND game thread, I disagreed with another fan on what constituted good play. I thought Saniya played well, was steady (an excellent trait in the point guard of a young team) and made some great passes. The other fan felt steady play and good passes weren't enough, although he declined to elaborate what would have been called good play.

Earlier in the season, people wanted Kia out of the starting lineup because she wasn't scoring. However, her defense has been stellar and she's currently averaging 4.5 assists a game and has a 2.25 assist to turnover ratio. (Saniya has only 5 turnovers for the year, by the way, part of that "steady" thing)

Are people judging how well someone is playing by her scoring stats? I would be interested in opinions on this topic.

Nan

Although I have criticized Kia for playing below expectations (mildly to avoid stirring up a hornet's nest), I never suggested that she should not play or her playing time should be cut.
There are good reasons for that.

1. We do not have a deep bench. If Kia sits, our standard goes down further.
2. She needs to play more to go over that junior wall she hits so frequently. Sitting on the bench will not help her.
I coach math. If you cannot do a problem, you keep attacking it (or do other hard problems) until you succeed.

I also was cautious in praising her after she had a couple of good games.
She brought Canadian offense and American (US) defense to the ND game.
She needs to to be criticized for that. It has to be done carefully so that we do not get her Canadian fans on our tail.
 
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I'm of the opinion that even the most knowledgeable here look at scoring- how much are we going to win by. Take the case of the ND player- Ogumbavale, she was unstoppable at times; but she was coming down the court and showing up shots. Yes, she may have the green light to shoot, but you can do other things to get your teammates into the happiness. And the coach complained about Turner not getting the ball. I do think Chong has played well- but cautious. It doesn't always serve well for creativity. And her defense has held its own. This cannot be said for Crystal Dangerfield at this stage.
 

CocoHusky

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Are people judging how well someone is playing by her scoring stats?
Yes they are and this very lazy method probably dates back to the invention of the game. There are so many other aspect of basketball to enjoy, for example, the pocket pass that Saniya gave to Napheesa to start the second half of ND game was exceptional! Even when a player is scoring a lot of points it still doesn't mean they are playing well.
 
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It's really easy to look at scoring as the biggest component when defining a player and deciding whether or not they're good. How big of an offensive threat are they? How many 3s can they drain in one night? How many fast break layups can they put in? It's flashy and it's fun to look at - scoring is obviously a huge component of the game. I'm sure we'd all like to see KLS, Pheese, Gabby, Kia, and Saniya just go on a 5 game rotation where they each score 30+ a game. KLS one night, Pheese the next, and so on and so forth. Pop a few big games from Crystal Dangerfield and Butler, and a few big 3s from TLaw and we'd be one happy bunch.

But... in my book, aside from measurable skill set, a good player is someone who is thinking about the team first and foremost. With UConn, that mindset is pretty much ingrained in them by the history of the program before they ever set foot in Storrs, not to mention the fact that Geno only recruits team players and those committed to the 'team above all else' mindset. If their shots aren't falling, they aren't getting good looks, or even in those cases where another player has hot hands and they want to get the ball to that player as much as possible because it's their hot night... what are they doing to impact the game in other ways? Are they playing good defense? Are they racking up a nice spread of assists? Are they being careful about their TOs and fouls? If they're on the bench, how involved are they in the game? Are they cheering for their teammates the way they'd want their teammates to cheer for them? As someone who grew up (I'm giving away my young age here, but so be it!) watching this program, those are the "little" things that matter a lot to me. Since you mentioned Saniya and Kia by name as good examples of the 'Are they a good player?' carousel:

Saniya might not throw up 10+ points a game, but I don't doubt that she's a good player. Is she the best that's ever walked through the doors at UConn? No, but how many kids are? For every one big name, there's going to be kids that are never quite that great. They'll make dumb mistakes. They won't have stellar breakout games that we'll go back and watch for years on end. In 10 years time, most people probably won't remember their name unless they were hardcore fans of the girl or hardcore fans of the program. But that doesn't mean she's not good. She's obviously good - she ended up at UConn, right? She only has 5 turnovers on the year. She's made some incredible assists. Her defense has improved from where she started from. Not every game will be her game. Not every game will be a good game for her. But when it counts, she's getting things done. She's a steady player, and sometimes I think that's at least a little undervalued when the other girls are doing incredible and flashy things on the court. She's a senior, and she's handled the big games of this season very well. Her teammates will learn from that, and in my opinion, that's a good thing.

It's the same thing with Kia. She might never be consistent offensively at UConn. To compare her Canadian numbers to her UConn numbers feels like it's doing a bit of a disservice to her as a player because she plays two completely different roles. Kia isn't the first scoring choice on UConn. At UConn, her defensive play and the energy she brings is her strong suit while still being able to be a threat offensively when she needs to be and when she's got hot hands. On the Canadian NT, she was considered to be a go-to scorer. (She performed better in 2015 internationally than at the Olympics, in my opinion. She still, however, looked solid at the exhibition game between Canada and France at MSG before Rio.) Her roles are different, and even Geno has said that. She doesn't need to pop up 20+ points a game here at UConn for me to consider her a good player. Come on, she's an Olympian and was the youngest player to make the Canadian NT. She played against Geno before she played for him. I think she can be classified as a good player. ;)

Just because they're scoring a ton of points doesn't always mean they're playing well or a good player. Just because they're not scoring a ton of points doesn't always mean they're not playing well or not a good player. It's about perception and context, I suppose. They're paying Geno the big bucks to be the judge, and better him than me! This is merely personal opinion. I apologize for the long-winded rant, but it was a slow day around here and this is a very interesting topic. :cool:
 
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Yes they are and this very lazy method probably dates back to the invention of the game. There are so many other aspect of basketball to enjoy, for example, the pocket pass that Saniya gave to Napheesa to start the second half of ND game was exceptional! Even when a player is scoring a lot of points it still doesn't mean they are playing well.

No. They are judging by her overall impact on the game. Scoring definitely matters but so do things like defense, rebounding, hustle, basketball IQ, and not making the same mistakes over and over.
 
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There's really a simple answer to any question about Saniya's performance: who does Geno start in every game? Coach's trust in a player is based on her reliability, and Chong has given Geno no excuse not to have her on the court to begin games. Furthermore, when Crystal got a little out of sorts last game, Coach immediately inserted Saniya. This is Caroline Doty deja vu. In Geno we trust, and Coach trusts Chong.
 
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I think scoring is only one part of the equation to determine whether somebody is playing well. Based on your observation about Saniya, the debate in my mind as to why she does not play more in big games continues.

To focus on Saniya, I am curious about the quick hook she gets and the seemingly lack of trust Geno has when the game is close. Crystal Dangerfield had five turnovers and in my opinion forced some shots but yet stayed in.

There are questions about Saniya. She either will spot up for a three or penetrate all the way to the basket. Why no mid range jumper? Does the staff think she is not quite quick enough to guard elite points on the other team? Even though her turnovers are way down, does she worry the staff when she penetrates? Do they not like her on the floor at the same time with Crystal Dangerfield?Don't know any of these.

The FSU game demonstrated that she is willing to step up when the game is close. I don't think Kia has to play 40. I think they could kick up Saniya's minutes by two or three and still be effective.

Once, Geno or somebody said Saniya was the fastest or quickest, something to that effect. When she cuts, she's rarely the pass recipient. As a defective observer, you might think Chong would get open when the defense is doubling Lou, Pheese, or Gabby. On drives, she's quick to the basket and can pass out of there. I'm agreeing that she could do more, and she's been careful on her passing. But if any player would be gun-shy, afraid to make mistakes, it would be the senior. Florida State is a disappearing memory. Hartley could cough it up and stay in the game, for Saniya it's sayonara.
 
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During the ND game thread, I disagreed with another fan on what constituted good play. I thought Saniya played well, was steady (an excellent trait in the point guard of a young team) and made some great passes. The other fan felt steady play and good passes weren't enough, although he declined to elaborate what would have been called good play.

Earlier in the season, people wanted Kia out of the starting lineup because she wasn't scoring. However, her defense has been stellar and she's currently averaging 4.5 assists a game and has a 2.25 assist to turnover ratio. (Saniya has only 5 turnovers for the year, by the way, part of that "steady" thing)

Are people judging how well someone is playing by her scoring stats? I would be interested in opinions on this topic.
Nan, I agree with you that Saniya was playing well against the Irish. In fact , I kept wondering when she would reenter the game after getting the elbow to her face. Do you think Geno was just trying to maximize Dangerfield's playing time in a meaningful game ? It was weird Saniya did not come back in until just around the 2 minute mark. I still believe Saniya has some big games coming.
 
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Nan

Although I have criticized Kia for playing below expectations (mildly to avoid stirring up a hornet's nest), I never suggested that she should not play or her playing time should be cut.
There are good reasons for that.

1. We do not have a deep bench. If Kia sits, our standard goes down further.
2. She needs to play more to go over that junior wall she hits so frequently. Sitting on the bench will not help her.
I coach math. If you cannot do a problem, you keep attacking it (or do other hard problems) until you succeed.

I also was cautious in praising her after she had a couple of good games.
She brought Canadian offense and American (US) defense to the ND game.
She needs to to be criticized for that. It has to be done carefully so that we do not get her Canadian fans on our tail.

Not sure what that means. Sometimes it's all a matter of perception and who is doing the observing. For example, Ogunbowale for ND is a heck of a player. Thc casual observer might even say that she was a sparkplug for ND against UCONN as a number of her plays stood out. Then check her stats against Kia's, who some may feel had a subpar game even though she worked her tail off for 40 minutes. Overall her stats were better than Ogunbowale's stats (Ogunbowale had 9 points on 4/14 shooting to Kia's 8) and in fact Kia's defense was one of the reasons why (although others contributed as well). It's true Kia didn't shoot particularly well but she only took six shots, was second on the team in assists, and had four clutch free throws down the stretch. BTW, only one UCONN player shot better than 50% and that was Collier. Anyway, to each his or her own. You're entitled to your opinion and of course I'm entitled to mine. We're only eight games in, with 30+ plus to go. We'll see how things shake out.
 
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Nan

Although I have criticized Kia for playing below expectations (mildly to avoid stirring up a hornet's nest), I never suggested that she should not play or her playing time should be cut.
There are good reasons for that.

1. We do not have a deep bench. If Kia sits, our standard goes down further.
2. She needs to play more to go over that junior wall she hits so frequently. Sitting on the bench will not help her.
I coach math. If you cannot do a problem, you keep attacking it (or do other hard problems) until you succeed.

I also was cautious in praising her after she had a couple of good games.
She brought Canadian offense and American (US) defense to the ND game.
She needs to to be criticized for that. It has to be done carefully so that we do not get her Canadian fans on our tail.

Hey Canadians over the centuries have learned to go along to get along--they won't be on your tail!!! But don't play them in a game of hockey!!

Kia--not scoring was an issue but not for Geno--her experience was worth the admission. That is the value of Dangerfield (almost)
When a player is playing well--She plays good to stellar defense, produces by assists, rebounds to her limits, set up her teammates, and once in a while throw in a 3 to keep the defense honest. Now some shall say--he just described Kelly Faris--yes I did. She played well most games--but failed with the 3. In one very stellar game Kelly was everywhere, did every thing, could do no wrong--next game she did little. So she played well--to be a great player you need to do this every game--ala Gabby, Collier, Katiel Lou--coming along well Dangerfield, Butler, Chong (we see moments of her scoring ability and a lot of her point guard experience).
 
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There's really a simple answer to any question about Saniya's performance: who does Geno start in every game? Coach's trust in a player is based on her reliability, and Chong has given Geno no excuse not to have her on the court to begin games. Furthermore, when Crystal got a little out of sorts last game, Coach immediately inserted Saniya. This is Caroline Doty deja vu. In Geno we trust, and Coach trusts Chong.
Caroline was the starting pg until she got hurt in 09 and then 2010 the whole year. If she never had injuries, Doty would have been AA! The one thing she did not lack is confidence. Kia Nurse is a better defender, leader and tougher and is very confident in herself. Crystal has made misstakes and might have more turnovers but those turnovers will not put doubt in her own abilities because she has confidence in herself. With Saniya, when a player doesnt trust herself all the time and have confidence in herself all the time. Your teammates will see that and your coaches will definately see that and that is her biggest problem, confidence. I will admit she played a nice game against ND the other night. The pass she made was beautiful and this game and Florida St. were her best but as for steady for all 8 games and her being a SR. She still not there imo.
 
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I think scoring is only one part of the equation to determine whether somebody is playing well. Based on your observation about Saniya, the debate in my mind as to why she does not play more in big games continues.

To focus on Saniya, I am curious about the quick hook she gets and the seemingly lack of trust Geno has when the game is close. Crystal Dangerfield had five turnovers and in my opinion forced some shots but yet stayed in.

There are questions about Saniya. She either will spot up for a three or penetrate all the way to the basket. Why no mid range jumper? Does the staff think she is not quite quick enough to guard elite points on the other team? Even though her turnovers are way down, does she worry the staff when she penetrates? Do they not like her on the floor at the same time with Crystal Dangerfield?Don't know any of these.

The FSU game demonstrated that she is willing to step up when the game is close. I don't think Kia has to play 40. I think they could kick up Saniya's minutes by two or three and still be effective.


I know whom nan was referring to. I made reference to that in the thread nan is talking about. It boggled my mind the guy even said it, but then he came back and said it again in a ridiculing way that made his initial comment even worse. Some people think if you don't accumulate stats then you aren't good. The fact is, if you have three players scoring a lot- which we see a lot form UCONN this year- and another player is getting rebounds etc but not scoring--- but this team if their 5th player is part of the defense that is forcing 42.8% from the floor and at the other end her team is able to run an efficient offense in which her defender can't impact the game-- that is a solid contribution. You look at Stanford and ND over the years they HAVE PLAYED gimmick defenses vs UCONN. No one has yet. Why not? Because UCONN has shooters and ballhandlers (i.e. a player like Chong).

What if a player is defending well- how do stats shows this? What if she boxes out well to allow another rebounder? How many times do we applaud a player for the number of assist they have in which many came from just swinging the ball. So the ball moved to 2/3/4 players yet no one gets credit for the 1/2/3 pass. Its the 4th pass that gets the assist and the accolades. Some don't care about all this they just feel if a player doesn't fill up stats then they aren't playing well. That would be true for Stewie or Maya Moore or all-americans. But role players that think they are stars is 1,000 times worse. A role player playing within themselves is a necessity for many successful teams.

As far as Chong-- I don't think she is capable of a consistent mid-range game. She doesn't shoot the ball over her head like a true jump shot and she isn't tall or extra-ordinarily quick. She doesn't have super passing skills though is capable. Danger does. Danger has a high ceiling. As long as Danger isn't costing Geno with wins, he is "gambling" that the higher ceiling player will peak come tourney time.
 
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