Creme's Way too Early Top 25

[sweetspot]

If Haley Jones decides to be the Haley Jones we saw in the Final 4, she's probably the biggest matchup problem in college basketball next year. It doesn't take away from Stanford's hole at PG, but I don't see any team with the ability to stop an "on" Jones next year.

What defines a matchup nightmare? She’s a wing with a good handle, decent size and improving range. It’s not like she’s a unicorn.

I’d say most of the returning All-Americans are equally or more nightmarish than Jones. If I’m an opposing coach, I’m way more worried about Caitlin Clark than Haley Jones.

 

[bbsamjj]

At her best, she's too big for most guards to matchup with, and too quick for most posts. If she can develop a consistent 3 pt shot, she'll be nearly unguardable.

Given her penchant for disappearing though, I agree, I'm more worried about Caitlin Clark. But if you have a decent sized (5'10) and quick guard, you can at least try to face guard her. She'll get her points no matter what, but you can at least try to match-up.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Well now we're a full two steps removed from the point. And now suddenly the conversation is about an evidence basis as opposed to say, glibly throwing out dreamed-up hypotheticals about other conferences as a way of throwing shade.

The comment in question implied Cooke's numbers have been hurt by playing against better defenses. But when I look at her actual "numbers" (evidence, right?) I'm not seeing clear evidence of correlation to strength of opponent. She had 25 vs. Stanford but only 11 vs. UConn (horror, a Big East team). She had 26 vs. Florida (also an SEC team, who knew?!) but only 9 vs. Vanderbilt. Arkansas was no defensive juggernaut and yet she only scored 9 on them.

But I get it, let's not let the actual "evidence" stand in the way of a good story.

All I said in this that Williams and Cooke are pretty similar players with different strengths and weaknesses.

But generally speaking, making sweeping statements about players, teams, or conferences based on single game samples is pretty bush league.

I think Bueckers makes UConn's guard group better than South Carolina's this past year and it's quite possible UConn will have an all time group next season.

Fact is though, South Carolina's starting guards were very good. there was not any depth to speak of and South Carolina gets very little scoring out of the 3 and no stretch from the 4 and IMO that is the genesis of their offensive "struggles" that rated the team about 10th or so in Massey offensive rankings. sometimes Cooke tries to do too much, which in my view is probably somewhat correctable and also a function of offensive passivity elsewhere.

that would be my view of it but I'm sure there will be a thousand more posts talking about how much Henderson and Cooke stink.

 

[Alydar]

If Haley Jones decides to be the Haley Jones we saw in the Final 4, she's probably the biggest matchup problem in college basketball next year. It doesn't take away from Stanford's hole at PG, but I don't see any team with the ability to stop an "on" Jones next year.

Any player is "stoppable". I can name lots of players who are unstoppable "when they are on". She also creates a problem for Tara. I don't see Jones being able to keep quick pg's in front of her on defense. Has Jones ever played point guard before? USA basketball never put her at the point. Did her HS or AAU coach? Can she learn the position well enough in one summer? I see Jones playing the point as a miss use of talent.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Any player is "stoppable". I can name lots of players who are unstoppable "when they are on". She also creates a problem for Tara. I don't see Jones being able to keep quick pg's in front of her on defense. Has Jones ever played point guard before? USA basketball never put her at the point. Did her HS or AAU coach? Can she learn the position well enough in one summer? I see Jones playing the point as a miss use of talent.

Jones will probably have the ball in her hands a lot and will initiate the offense sometimes, but she will never be the PG per se at Stanford. She played the 4 almost exclusively this year, occasionally 3 when they had a big lineup on the floor. She's not going to be put in a position of trying to chase around the other team's PG on defense.

 

[Dwilliams02]

Jones will probably have the ball in her hands a lot and will initiate the offense sometimes, but she will never be the PG per se at Stanford. She played the 4 almost exclusively this year, occasionally 3 when they had a big lineup on the floor. She's not going to be put in a position of trying to chase around the other team's PG on defense.

I see Hull playing Pg before Jones. But. Stanford will be fine. I really think replacing Kiana will be smoother than expected

 

[Stymie]

The difference between the two is very small. At this time I would pick UConn #1 because Westbrook is coming back. UConn is far superior in the backcourt and the outstanding talent of Boston doesn't compensate for that.

With her progress this past season, A Edwards is equal to or surpasses Boston in effectiveness by the end of next season.
JMHO

 

[SCspur]

With her progress this past season, A Edwards is equal to or surpasses Boston in effectiveness by the end of next season.
JMHO

So Boston won’t improve at all right?

 

[nwhoopfan]

I see Hull playing Pg before Jones. But. Stanford will be fine. I really think replacing Kiana will be smoother than expected

They'll miss her shooting. I think Van Gytenbeek could actually be better in terms of being a traditional PG. They'll also really miss the defense of the Williams/Wilson combo (assuming Anna doesn't return for another year).

 

[Dwilliams02]

Edwards is a great player. But she cannot be compared to Boston. Boston biggest weakness is her conditioning, which I think will be worked on. And she needs someone to compliment her. Her and Saxton don't work good together. Amihere and her don't work together either. If I'm Dawn. Feagan will play early and often. Or go smaller with Beal playing the 4

 

[Gamecockfan77]

What defines a matchup nightmare? She’s a wing with a good handle, decent size and improving range. It’s not like she’s a unicorn.

I’d say most of the returning All-Americans are equally or more nightmarish than Jones. If I’m an opposing coach, I’m way more worried about Caitlin Clark than Haley Jones.

Any player is "stoppable". I can name lots of players who are unstoppable "when they are on". She also creates a problem for Tara. I don't see Jones being able to keep quick pg's in front of her on defense. Has Jones ever played point guard before? USA basketball never put her at the point. Did her HS or AAU coach? Can she learn the position well enough in one summer? I see Jones playing the point as a miss use of talent.

.............
Jones might not have brought the ball up the floor (though she might have done) but she was the featured playmaker on USA team. Fudd probably would have been 1b.

South Carolina got caught without enough bodies to play small. Saxton and Amihere were not up to defending her, which is maybe a little unusual.

 

[shiverz45]

With her progress this past season, A Edwards is equal to or surpasses Boston in effectiveness by the end of next season.
JMHO

So Edwards will be an All American by the end of next year? Boston was one by the end of her Freshmen year. No one game plan for Edwards. Boston gets doubled and tripled team and still produce. Edwards is a good player but she is not in the same class as Boston.

 

[Reypl21]

Haley Jones can be a facilitator at the 4 or 3 next year for Stanford. I dont get how that's such a hard concept to swallow. Her skillset is amazing on the fast break, so that doesnt need to be touched upon. She may find herself in situations where she gets the rebound and brings the ball upcourt and starts the offense. In other cases I think Stanford will have their guards get the ball half court and give it to Jones in the half court. Then she can make the decisions and show her passing ability. UConn used to play through Dolson and Gabby in the halfcourt a lot, and neither were deemed PGs for their team. It's not a new concept of running the offense through your best passer.

Having said that, I think playmaking and better decision making is going to have to be the next step for Haley Jones. They dont have an obvious answer at PG, so I believe they will rely on her more in their offense.

 

[Gurleyman]

Haley Jones can be a facilitator at the 4 or 3 next year for Stanford. I dont get how that's such a hard concept to swallow. Her skillset is amazing on the fast break, so that doesnt need to be touched upon. She may find herself in situations where she gets the rebound and brings the ball upcourt and starts the offense. In other cases I think Stanford will have their guards get the ball half court and give it to Jones in the half court. Then she can make the decisions and show her passing ability. UConn used to play through Dolson and Gabby in the halfcourt a lot, and neither were deemed PGs for their team. It's not a new concept of running the offense through your best passer.

Having said that, I think playmaking and better decision making is going to have to be the next step for Haley Jones. They dont have an obvious answer at PG, so I believe they will rely on her more in their offense.

Jones had turnover issues a lot. Some of her passes were head scratchers. In 6 games with Arizona and UCLA she had 8 assists and 23 turnovers.

Very possible that something clicked for her in the Final Four and she’ll be a different player next year with a new sense of confidence. But she was pretty ordinary for most of this season. She even got benched in the PAC 12 Tournament.

 

[bbsamjj]

Agree Gurleyman. I think for Haley Jones to become an All American next year, she needs to:

1. Play every game with an attitude that she is the best player on the court, and to be aggressive offensively and defensively.
2. Cut down on TO's.
3. Develop a more consistent 3-point shot.

 

[Alydar]

Any player is "stoppable". I can name lots of players who are unstoppable "when they are on". She also creates a problem for Tara. I don't see Jones being able to keep quick pg's in front of her on defense. Has Jones ever played point guard before? USA basketball never put her at the point. Did her HS or AAU coach? Can she learn the position well enough in one summer? I see Jones playing the point as a miss use of talent.


.............
Jones might not have brought the ball up the floor (though she might have done) but she was the featured playmaker on USA team. Fudd probably would have been 1b.

South Carolina got caught without enough bodies to play small. Saxton and Amihere were not up to defending her, which is maybe a little unusual.

The only USA team Jones was on recently was the U17 team in the summer of 2019. Despite playing exceptionally well she wasn't even the leading scorer, didn't take the most shots and was behind both Horston and Bueckers in assists. Bueckers and Fudd played more minutes.

Jones was a big UConn target. I think it came down to UConn or Stanford. But as good as she was and is she never was the "featured playmaker" for USA unless I missed a team she was on.

## Player----------- gp-gs--min- avg---- fg-fga- fg%- 3fg-fga- 3fg% -ft-fta---- reb avg-- pf- -dq-- a-- to-- blk-- stl--- pts-- avg
14 Boston, Aliyah--- 7-7----122 17.4----- 34-52- . 65-- 0-0--- . 00--- 11-14-----7.1------ 9---- 0- 10--- 6---- 9--- 5 ---79 --11.3
10Jones, Haley------ 7-7--- 143 20.4----- 32-57- . 56-- 2-10-- . 20--- 10-16---- 4.3 ------5 ----0-- 22- 12---- 8--- 7--- 76 --10.9
08Horston, Jordan-- 7-7--- 152 21.7----- 31-62- . 50-- 4-15-- . 26-- ---5-8---- 7.0------ 3 ----0 -36-- 13---- 7-- 24--- 71-- 10.1
05Bueckers, Paige --7-7--- 149 21.3----- 31-55- . 56-- 3-11-- . 27----- 3-6---- 3.6------ 9---- 0- 33--- 8---- 2--- 7--- 68---- 9.7
06Fudd, Azzi-------- 7-7--- 167 23.9----- 27-53- . 50-- 9-16-- . 56----- 5-5 -----3.9------ 9---- 0- 14-- 6---- 2---- 5--- 68--- 9.7
15Belibi, Fran------- 7-0----- 98 14.0----- 23-39- . 59--- 0-0-- . 00 ---10-16--- 5.7------ 8---- 0-- 9--- 6---- 2-- 15--- 56--- 8.0
04Cooke, Zia--------7-0---- 110 15.7----- 20-44- . 45-- 2-10-- . 20--- 13-17---- 2.9------ 8---- 0- 12-- 15--- 0--- 9---- 55--- 7.9
07Taylor, Celeste----7-0---- 114 16.3----- 17-43- . 39-- 5-13 --. 38---- 4-11---- 4.1----- 10---- 0-- 9----9---- 3--- 6--- 43---- 6.1
09Van Lith, Hailey---7-0----- 95 13.6----- 15-45- . 33-- 4-13-- . 30----- 1-4---- 1.3 ------5---- 0- 14--- 7---- 1--- 5---- 35--- 5.0
11Osborne,Charism-7-0---- 112 16.0------ 8-31- . 25-- 4-21-- . 19---- 8-11---- 3.7------ 6----- 0-15--- 5---- 1-- 11---- 28--- 4.0
13Brink, Cameron---7-0------63- 9.0----- 10-20- . 50-- 0-0---- . 00----- 5-9----- 4.6------ 8----- 0 -3---- 4---- 5--- 1---- 25--- 3.6
12Brunelle, Sam-----7-0----- 75- 10.7---- 10-27- . 3 7-- 1-13 . 0 7-------- 0-0---- 2.7------ 5----- 0- 6---- 5---- 1--- 2---- 21--- 3.0

 

[sweetspot]

I’m not on the Haley Jones for NPOY campaign (yet!), but she did pretty well last season considering she was coming back from a knee injury. It’s possible she’s even more explosive and confident next season.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Bueckers and Boston were secondary players on that USA team. They were great secondary players.

Fudd and Jones were the primary players forcing the action.

I watched just about all of that tournament's games for USA and Canada. Less intently for Canada.

 

[UConnCat]

Jones was a big UConn target. I think it came down to UConn or Stanford.

That's true. I believe Geno envisioned Haley playing the same position in his offense that Maya and Gabby played -- setting up at the elbow with the opportunity to create a shot for herself or for others. Tara uses Haley the same way. Haley is special though I don't know if she'll be quite the playmaker/passer that Gabby was. As a power forward, Gabby led UConn in assists as a junior (191) and a senior (190).

 

[Nash83]

Bueckers and Boston were secondary players on that USA team. They were great secondary players.

Fudd and Jones were the primary players forcing the action.

I watched just about all of that tournament's games for USA and Canada. Less intently for Canada.

Been patiently waiting for the USA team Horston to appear at TN. Hopefully that’s next year.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Been patiently waiting for the USA team Horston to appear at TN. Hopefully that’s next year.

Horston was great on that team.