Creme Goes Wild for Ivies

[DobbsRover2]

Never underestimate the power of WCBB experts to do totally ridiculous things. Now I know that dumping on the AAC is in fashion, and I was amazed when Charlie Creme popped Tulane into his selected teams list even though the Green Wave's stats did justify a selection. But in the Jan 26 posting he has moved them to the first team out again and replaced them with . . . . . . . . Cornell.

The Big Red are rated #139 in Sagarin and #129 in Massey, but with Princeton as the league leader the Ivies now have a second team in the selections. Yes Cornell is a team whose main strong point is a respectable loss to #15 Syracuse but has no halfway decent wins and has lost to #178 Hartford, #106 Drexel, #138 Bucknell, and #165 Buffalo. What moved them into the rankings were a pair of wins over the weekend against #285 Columbia. Creme apparently believes like Striper that Cornell is better than a team like Tulane that has beaten Miami, LSU, and NC State but whose best wins apparently don't add up to beating the Big Red's victims like #303 Loyola-MD or #316 Vermont.

And who is #15 seed Cornell lined up against? UTenn!

To all those who in the past have attacked Creme for brainlessness and who I have told he does a reasonable job, I apologize. I was totally wrong.

 

[Orangutan]

Princeton is not leading the Ivy League: http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/wbkb/2014-15/standings

Cornell is, hence Creme slating them in the Ivy League's automatic bid slot. When Princeton inevitably overtakes Cornell, that will be corrected.

I haven't seen him post about his methodology but I'm assuming that it's meant as an "if the season ended today" exercise rather than a projection that accounts for likely future results.

 

[Fightin Choke]

Never underestimate the power of WCBB experts to do totally ridiculous things. Now I know that dumping on the AAC is in fashion, and I was amazed when Charlie Creme popped Tulane into his selected teams list even though the Green Wave's stats did justify a selection. But in the Jan 26 posting he has moved them to the first team out again and replaced them with . . . . . . . . Cornell.

The Big Red are rated #139 in Sagarin and #129 in Massey, but with Princeton as the league leader the Ivies now have a second team in the selections. Yes Cornell is a team whose main strong point is a respectable loss to #15 Syracuse but has no halfway decent wins and has lost to #178 Hartford, #106 Drexel, #138 Bucknell, and #165 Buffalo. What moved them into the rankings were a pair of wins over the weekend against #285 Columbia. Creme apparently believes like Striper that Cornell is better than a team like Tulane that has beaten Miami, LSU, and NC State but whose best wins apparently don't add up to beating the Big Red's victims like #303 Loyola-MD or #316 Vermont.

And who is #15 seed Cornell lined up against? UTenn!

To all those who in the past have attacked Creme for brainlessness and who I have told he does a reasonable job, I apologize. I was totally wrong.

I believe that you misunderstood his stance. If you look at the latest bracket he proposes, he has Cornell winning the Ivy League, and thus getting into the tournament by securing the automatic bid. Then he has Princeton getting in as an at-large. The reason he has Cornell winning the Ivy is pretty superficial, as they are also undefeated in league play and have won more games than Princeton. His quote: "By virtue of playing more league games and not losing yet, the Big Red are the Ivy League's representative, at least until Princeton resumes its schedule again." If you assume that Cornell loses the head-to-head match-up, then Cornell will not be invited to the dance.

 

[Striper69]

I have no idea what Cornell is like.

I base my opinion about Princeton on the games I have seen in person.

I hope Creme is right about Princeton going to Spokane!

Final Four...Yeah Baby!!!

 

[Orangutan]

Side note about the Ivy League...

If two teams finish with the same record (regardless of head-to-head results), they are declared co-champions and play in a playoff to determine the automatic-bid. At least that's how it used to go, I couldn't find a current set of rules to confirm that.

 

[Striper69]

Yeah, they have no conference tournament at the end of the season so it has to be that way.

BTW- this year's Princeton women's BB team reminds me of Pete Carrill's '70s men's BB team that upset teams in the tournaments and regular season.

 

[DobbsRover2]

I believe that you misunderstood his stance. If you look at the latest bracket he proposes, he has Cornell winning the Ivy League, and thus getting into the tournament by securing the automatic bid. Then he has Princeton getting in as an at-large. The reason he has Cornell winning the Ivy is pretty superficial, as they are also undefeated in league play and have won more games than Princeton. His quote: "By virtue of playing more league games and not losing yet, the Big Red are the Ivy League's representative, at least until Princeton resumes its schedule again." If you assume that Cornell loses the head-to-head match-up, then Cornell will not be invited to the dance.

Um, so you are composing a Bracketology in which you have a weak league that will be getting one team into the Tournament, because if Princeton cannot beat Cornell or the other 2-0 Ivy team, Yale, (which technically is a co-leader with Cornell and so probably deserves to be in the Bracketology?????), then the Tigers do not deserve to be in the tournament. There are many mid majors over the years that appeared to deserve from their ratings to be in the Tourney but had to take a hike to the NIT after a screw up in their conference Tournament, which is similar to what the Tigers would face with a playoff game. Simply put, if Princeton loses to another once-defeated Ivy and then also loses the extra game to get to the Tourney, they are not getting selected off of 2 very bad losses and no good wins.

Charlie has Princeton as a #7 seed now and Cornell as a #15 seed, and no matter what the oddity of uneven schedules that temporarily have two other league teams with more wins, to put Cornell in a "possible Tournament selection in March" is totally brainless. The question is, which is the team that will earn the Ivy's one spot? If he is going to set up a Bracketology with idiotic superficial mechanisms like this, why bother? I could collect some wind from behind me that would be worth more.

And yes, many of us do like Princeton, and some will squawk that the Tigers would still be selected even with two losses to #139 Cornell and a then SOS well over 100, but it's not going to happen. Wins over Michigan and Pittsburgh are not going to overcome the lack of anything else coupled with 2 bad losses.

So again, apologies to all those who I've twitted in past years for calling Creme a bonehead.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Princeton will have played one less game than everybody but Penn until March 10, when the Tigers and Quakers play their second game. With games against Cornell on February 7 and Yale on February 14, the Tigers will likely resolve the situation if the Big Red and Bulldogs do not lose before then. In the meantime, we have an idiot's delight situation.

 

[Striper69]

Princeton's deep enough and don't rely on any single players that I'll be very surprised if they don't steamroll through the rest of the season.

Blake Dietrick and Michelle Miller are pretty outstanding players though.

 

[Orangutan]

I asked the man himself for clarification, see below...

Not sure that I agree it "needs" to be a snapshot, but that's his method.

1. 1. ‏@Chicago2Chelsea 2h2 hours ago
      @CharlieCreme Does bracketology have a "no predictions" rule? I assume you don't actually think Cornell wins Ivy?
      
      
   2. Charlie Creme ‏@CharlieCreme 40m40 minutes ago
      @Chicago2Chelsea exactly. Needs to be a snapshot to stay consistent.

 

[hussybulldog]

I asked the man himself for clarification, see below...

Not sure that I agree it "needs" to be a snapshot, but that's his method.

1. 1. ‏@Chicago2Chelsea 2h2 hours ago
      @CharlieCreme Does bracketology have a "no predictions" rule? I assume you don't actually think Cornell wins Ivy?
      
      
   2. Charlie Creme ‏@CharlieCreme 40m40 minutes ago
      @Chicago2Chelsea exactly. Needs to be a snapshot to stay consistent.

He is so lame, does not even dare to predict. if he does not dare to predict who is going to win the competitive Ivy League, why is he even in this bracketology biz?

 

[Husky1964]

Talk brought back old memories. Saw the 1959 playoff at Yale between Dartmouth and Princeton, won by D with future Laker Rudy LaRusso and Guard Dave Gavitt. Scary, they are both deceased!!!!!

 

[DobbsRover2]

There have been 8 playoff years during the 40 completed years of Ivy WCBB play, so one every 5 years. The last two in 2006 and 2008 were the only ones involving three teams, with Dartmouth winning in 2006 and Cornell in 2008. Yale and Columbia are the only schools never to win either a shared or outright title, and Cornell's only title of any kind came in that 2008 playoff.

Princeton seems likely to be pretty safe this year, though you never know, because last year's top teams Penn and Princeton lost to the two worst teams in Dartmouth and Brown late in the season.

 

[stamfordhusky]

He is so lame, does not even dare to predict. if he does not dare to predict who is going to win the competitive Ivy League, why is he even in this bracketology biz?

This the same method used by Lunardi (ESPN) and Palm (CBS Sports) for the men's bracketology. Like Creme, they both give the league leader the automatic berth, and if it is tied then use RPI.

 

[DobbsRover2]

This the same method used by Lunardi (ESPN) and Palm (CBS Sports) for the men's bracketology. Like Creme, they both give the league leader the automatic berth, and if it is tied then use RPI.

So are you saying that the dumb should follow the dumb, that say if you were to set up a new team rating system that you would base it on the RPI method, or if you were developing a new election prediction system that you would base it on what Gallup did for the 2012 presidential election? Is it lunkheads of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your credibility?

Dare to be halfway smart, Charlie; there's no need to be a slave to stupidity. The Tournament gets played in March, not the end of January, so doing brackets for odd January standings is about as productive as a men's college basketball fan at work on Thursday-Friday March 19+20 this year.