Conference earthquakes - here's how I read the seismograph

[Carl Spackler]

Here's how I see things. There's going to be chaos for a little while.

Facts:

The primary, most important factor in an academic institutions health is student enrollment. Student enrollment, is driven by two factors, an academic institutions academic standing, and as terribly as it tastes in your physics professors mouth - ATHLETICS success, at the highest level.

• Applications for enrollment has increased by 23 percent for the [UConn] Fall 2011 freshman class.

http://admissions.uconn.edu/facts/index.php

That student enrollment at an institution increases with athletics success and competition at the highest levels is without a doubt. That research grants and funding increases with academic success at the highest level of competitions is without a doubt, and those professors doing the research will attract the best students.

As both a research academic institution and athletic institution competing at the highest levels(the two primary factors I see in affecting student an academic institutions health) - we are clearly in the top 20 schools in the entire United States.

I don't need to talk about the athletics level. We all know it around here, and it's not just the money making sports.

As for the academics - can't have a better timing for all of this for this:

http://articles.courant.com/2011-09...omplete-rankings-uconn-president-susan-herbst

Now - for opinion. I can't find a good link, and I'm not looking any further, but when it comes to television ratings for live sporting events in the NYC, CT and Boston area, gate receipts at places like Madison Square Garden for basketball, and operating a 40,000 seat stadium at approx 95% capacity, havent' been to a pinstripe bowl yet, but I'll hazard that gate count would be pretty good - we're not too shabby when it comes to the broadcasting angle of athletics and wehre that money fits in.

With all of that in mind, it really comes down, in my mind, to how we want to play the athletic and academic floor of the casino we find our selves standing in.

What table do you want to sit at, and how are we going to play it?

I don't know much about our new President, and I know a little about our interim acting AD, but what I do know, is that these people are not the sit on your hands types of people.

The old saying about lemons and lemonade.

I don't know what happened, how, with the 'Cuse,Pitt to the ACC, Baltimore Colts pack up the trucks and move in the middle of night act.

But the more I think about it, the more I feel like the cash cow that just walked into that casino, rather than the guy with a $100 bill and a dream.

And you know what, if Cuse and Pitt don't pull the Irsay act, maybe we don't get the opportunity to play the floor. So - thanks to Syracuse and Pitt for joining us for the ride, maybe we'll see you on the other side.

 

[junglehusky]

Well, to your analogy, I'd rather be the cash cow walking OUT of the casino when all is said and done. We'll see...

 

[Carl Spackler]

If you're the cash cow walking in, you're not concerned about how much you lose at the tables, you're going to get comped.

 

[junglehusky]

If you're the cash cow walking in, you're not concerned about how much you lose at the tables, you're going to get comped.

I see.

I wouldn't know anything about that from experience

 

[upstater]

Here's how I see things. There's going to be chaos for a little while.

Facts:

The primary, most important factor in an academic institutions health is student enrollment. Student enrollment, is driven by two factors, an academic institutions academic standing, and as terribly as it tastes in your physics professors mouth - ATHLETICS success, at the highest level.

That student enrollment at an institution increases with athletics success and competition at the highest levels is without a doubt. That research grants and funding increases with academic success at the highest level of competitions is without a doubt, and those professors doing the research will attract the best students.

As both a research academic institution and athletic institution competing at the highest levels(the two primary factors I see in affecting student an academic institutions health) - we are clearly in the top 20 schools in the entire United States.

I would contest absolutely everything you wrote here. What you call fact is opinion with absolutely no basis. Applications are increasing by 20% all around the country at all state schools regardless of participation in bigtime sports. Class quality is increasing rapidly at a lot of schools. There are reasons for this.

When you look at the top 50, the bigtime athletic schools that are there have been there for a long time, prior to the age of bigtime college sports and TV. Michigan, Virginia, Wisconsin, Texas, are legacies that predate sports dominance. Surely, athletics have benefited schools such as NC and Notre Dame and UConn, but other schools have dropped bigtime in the rankings as they ramped up in sports. Schools like Rutgers and Maryland have lost prestige. Andrew Zimbalist says the sports=academics equation is true for about 10% of the schools that try it. It's totally overrated for the vast majority which experience no rise. Some, he said, develop a loser's reputation that seems to seep into the general perception of the school.

 

[jpm25]

These are not at all facts. Also, if enrollment = success, how do you explain the largest college in the country being in Conference USA?

 

[Carl Spackler]

Energy sucker.....just kidding

We've had this discussion before. Admission bumps due to athletics are temporary, but very significant temporary bumps statisticually that have rippling effects through an entire institution.

You say that applications are increasing by 20% around the country. Is enrollment inreasing by 20% around the country too? Nope.

For the record, UConn enrollment TOTAL - including all campuses (enrollment - not applications) has increased by just under 10% in 5 years.

Big difference b/w the two. Big difference between applications and actual enrollment.

Enrollment is a choice on the university side. You need to look at many factors. Are admission standards being lowered or raised with increasing enrollment is a big one.

UConn is raising both at the same time.

Average SAT scores for incoming freshmen at Storrs are up 108 points since 1997 and are now at 1220.
http://admissions.uconn.edu/facts/index.php

UCONN enrollment Fall 2006
28,481

http://www.uconn.edu/pdf/UConn_Facts_2011.pdf

UConn enrollment Fall 2008
29,383

http://www.uconn.edu/pdf/UConn_Facts_2011.pdf

UConn enrollment Fall 2011
30,034

http://www.uconn.edu/pdf/UConn_Facts_2011.pdf

Bottom line is that you may not like the way I put it, originally, but UConn is a financially secure, reputable, atheltic AND academic institution, and we're growing.

That's not a position of weakness.

 

[Carl Spackler]

These are not at all facts. Also, if enrollment = success, how do you explain the largest college in the country being in Conference USA?

Applications and enrollment are different.

Enrollment is directly related to the annual operating expenses of an institution.

You want more money to work with every year? Easiest way is to increase enrollment. But increasing enrollment at an academic institution, means increasing EVERYTHING about an institution.

Large enrolmment means lots of cash flow on yearly basis - that's it.

But how do you do it? You need to get the applications coming in first of all. If there aren't applications, there's nowhere to go.

As long as applications are coming in - if you lower admission standards - it's really easy to get a very large enrollment.

 

[jpm25]

Energy sucker.....just kidding

We've had this discussion before. Admission bumps due to athletics are temporary, but very significant temporary bumps statisticually that have rippling effects through an entire institution.

You say that applications are increasing by 20% around the country. Is enrollment inreasing by 20% around the country too? Nope.

For the record, UConn enrollment TOTAL - including all campuses (enrollment - not applications) has increased by just under 10% in 5 years.

Big difference b/w the two. Big difference between applications and actual enrollment.

Enrollment is a choice on the university side. You need to look at many factors. Are admission standards being lowered or raised with increasing enrollment is a big one.

UConn is raising both at the same time.

Average SAT scores for incoming freshmen at Storrs are up 108 points since 1997 and are now at 1220.
http://admissions.uconn.edu/facts/index.php

UCONN enrollment Fall 2006
28,481

http://www.uconn.edu/pdf/UConn_Facts_2011.pdf

UConn enrollment Fall 2008
29,383

http://www.uconn.edu/pdf/UConn_Facts_2011.pdf

UConn enrollment Fall 2011
30,034

http://www.uconn.edu/pdf/UConn_Facts_2011.pdf

Bottom line is that you may not like the way I put it, originally, but UConn is a financially secure, reputable, atheltic AND academic institution, and we're growing.

That's not a position of weakness.

if we are going to quote facts, please do so responsibly. If you took a moment to check the DoE statistics, you would see in the last 10 years, college enrollment overall is up 38% and full-time enrollment is up 45%. If you want to parse it down to "typical" college students (under age 25) that growth is still 28%. I understand you are making a slightly different point, but let's not use false "facts".

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=98

 

[jpm25]

Applications and enrollment are different.

Enrollment is directly related to the annual operating expenses of an institution.

You want more money to work with every year? Easiest way is to increase enrollment. But increasing enrollment at an academic institution, means increasing EVERYTHING about an institution.

Large enrolmment means lots of cash flow on yearly basis - that's it.

But how do you do it? You need to get the applications coming in first of all. If there aren't applications, there's nowhere to go.

As long as applications are coming in - if you lower admission standards - it's really easy to get a very large enrollment.

this is really a silly argument you are trying to make, and seeing how tenacious you have been in the past even when your stance was questionable at best, I'm going to stop here.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Oh boy. Never mind - I'll just answer your question directly:

These are not at all facts. Also, if enrollment = success, how do you explain the largest college in the country being in Conference USA?

First - I didn't say that enrollment = success. I said that student enrollment is the primary factor to look at for an institutions academic health.

Having a huge enrollment by itself, does not mean that an institution is very healthy academically, in many cases, a huge enrollment can actually mean lower academic standards, thus enrollment is a primary factor - meaning lots of things figure into it.

That's not the case at UConn, as I showed. Admission standards are increasing steadily, enrollment is increasing steadily, as are applications jumping at the same time.

Now - how do I explain the largest college in the country being in conference USA?

You must be referring to Central Florida although ASU is actually the largest in the country by enrollment stats.

Anyway - I can't explain why the college in the county with the largest enrollment is in Arizona, or why Central Florida is in Conference USA, I'm not knowledgeable enough on either school, but I am pretty sure that the explanation has very little to do with what I"m talking about.

But I bet you can find where the colleges rank on admissions standards if you look, and find out whether or not there's a trend of both academic admission standards increasing with enrollment, or if it's the other way around.

That would certainly apply to what I'm talking about.
​

 

[Carl Spackler]

if we are going to quote facts, please do so responsibly. If you took a moment to check the DoE statistics, you would see in the last 10 years, college enrollment overall is up 38% and full-time enrollment is up 45%. If you want to parse it down to "typical" college students (under age 25) that growth is still 28%. I understand you are making a slightly different point, but let's not use false "facts".

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=98

What did I say was incorrect? You assume that I meant that enrollmet would be less than the 20% that upstater said that applications were increasing around the country.

LEt's try again.

Factors.
Dynamic stuff.

Trends.

Applications rising. Enrollment rising. Admission standards rising. All together now.......

Do you think it's a good thing for colleges to increase enrollment at a fast rate?

 

[upstater]

Energy sucker.....just kidding

We've had this discussion before. Admission bumps due to athletics are temporary, but very significant temporary bumps statisticually that have rippling effects through an entire institution.

You say that applications are increasing by 20% around the country. Is enrollment inreasing by 20% around the country too? Nope.

For the record, UConn enrollment TOTAL - including all campuses (enrollment - not applications) has increased by just under 10% in 5 years.

Big difference b/w the two. Big difference between applications and actual enrollment.

Enrollment is a choice on the university side. You need to look at many factors. Are admission standards being lowered or raised with increasing enrollment is a big one.

UConn is raising both at the same time.

Average SAT scores for incoming freshmen at Storrs are up 108 points since 1997 and are now at 1220.
http://admissions.uconn.edu/facts/index.php

UCONN enrollment Fall 2006
28,481

http://www.uconn.edu/pdf/UConn_Facts_2011.pdf

UConn enrollment Fall 2008
29,383

http://www.uconn.edu/pdf/UConn_Facts_2011.pdf

UConn enrollment Fall 2011
30,034

http://www.uconn.edu/pdf/UConn_Facts_2011.pdf

Bottom line is that you may not like the way I put it, originally, but UConn is a financially secure, reputable, atheltic AND academic institution, and we're growing.

That's not a position of weakness.

Uh, yes. Enrollment is increasing, mainly due to demographics. It depends on if a school can expand while keeping quality high. Each SUNY school wants 10k more students and they don't play bigtime sports.

Higher quality classes are the rule at a lot of schools these days. Again, for demographic reasons. Bigger population, more students applying for college, private schools giving less financial aid and now out of reach for many in the middle class. All that equals an increase in the quality of student at almost all state schools. If SUNY-Stony brook's class is eons better and so is Cal-Irvine's, as is Illinois-Chicago's, it's a national trend.

Again, I exempted UConn from this discussion because of the billion dollar investments the state made AFTER athletic success. I'm talking about the general statements you made earlier.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Opinion noted - thanks upstater, general statements from me will be avoided in the future, alson on a different note, will I ever talk football again without a link to actual video of what I'm talking aobut around here. Yes, I completely agree with your sentiments, especially the point that increasing enrollment while also keeping quality high is the key. I think that if you can be both increasing academic admissions standards at the same time as increasing enrollment - that's a good way to determine if you're doing it and my original statemetns were written in excitement and haste and not properly stated.

This conference stuff is just too interesting though, and the point I'm making, is that we are a very strong institution, and would increase the value of any organization of colleges, and we need to take advantage of that position.

Can we agree on that?

 

[upstater]

Opinion noted - thanks upstater, general statements from me will be avoided in the future, alson on a different note, will I ever talk football again without a link to actual video of what I'm talking aobut around here. Yes, I completely agree with your sentiments, especially the point that increasing enrollment while also keeping quality high is the key. I think that if you can be both increasing academic admissions standards at the same time as increasing enrollment - that's a good way to determine if you're doing it and my original statemetns were written in excitement and haste and not properly stated.

This conference stuff is just too interesting though, and the point I'm making, is that we are a very strong institution, and would increase the value of any organization of colleges, and we need to take advantage of that position.

Can we agree on that?

Yes