OT: completely OT - but I must rant about behavior

[KnightBridgeAZ]

I know it doesn't sound nice, but I have an opinion that most people today believe they can and should say and do whatever they want, when ever they want, as long as it isn't illegal (and I'm not sure they all care about that).

They are confusing, in my mind, "can" as in able with "ought to" as in it is a good idea.

Some of what I am complaining about is just plain incivility, of course, but a lot of it comes from some sort of self-righteousness that I just don't understand.

I am as critical as the next guy in my mind - and about plenty of things that I don't feel I have a right to share my opinion with others unless it is as part of a discussion - but here are some examples of the sort I am talking about.

- ordering at a fast food counter (me) - "I'll have a big breakfa" - customer that walked up to the counter, loudly "my drink isn't hot and doesn't have apples in it. Fix it", patron behind me "not that you were in the middle of speaking or anything".
- driving off the wharf in Santa Cruz, narrow 2 lanes - 2 young ladies sitting - yes, sitting - in the middle of the lanes taking selfies. And today, 2 gentlemen standing, blocking my lane, yes, you guessed it, taking selfies. Not that there isn't a side walk on both sides, or anything.
- in an online discussion of handicapped parking tags, someone has a tag for a non-mobility issue, allowed in her state and her doctor insisted she get it, explained that she only uses it when there is no close spots, One person went on and on about how their state won't allow that any more and how dare she "take advantage" of a legal loophole to inconvenience people who need those spots. I'll add that her illness is life threatening.
- and speaking of handicapped spots, the hotel I'm in doesn't enforce the requirement and allows folks to park in the garage in any spot or not in any spot at all, making it a 10 minute process yesterday to get out of my spot. I don't completely blame the hotel, why would these folks part half blocking in another car?

And millions of political examples we are not going to discuss. This is just a smattering of recent examples of what I am ranting about.

Anyone agree?

 

[vtcwbuff]

No - people are no different today than they were 50 years ago. Incivility existed then and it will continue. The only difference is the mechanisms (selfies etc.) of rudeness and the ever invasive "social media" where the perpetually offended reside.

 

[MilfordHusky]

I think the media have led to a decrease in manners and an increase in the sense of entitlement (Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous). Technology gives those inclined to be rude a means to be rude in new ways and lets the masses see it.

 

[CL82]

I think the media have led to a decrease in manners and an increase in the sense of entitlement (Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous). Technology gives those inclined to be rude a means to be rude in new ways and lets the masses see it.

Interesting point. Let me try restate in case I'm over interpreting.

1. Anonymity of the internet/social media took away many of the consequences from incivility.

2. As incivility became the norm in online it began to creep in the real world. "If I'd say online I'd say it in person" mentality.

3. Tolerance for "acceptable" incivility increased in the real world, which in turn made people more willing to rude online, which made them more comfortable doing it real world, essentially become a self amplifying loop.

This is interesting and may be the most credible reason for the precipitous decline civility.

Well done Milford Husky.

 

[Bigboote]

The thing that slays me is people sitting in their cars idling at the curb in shopping center parking lots (or anywhere). Especially on code red days, of which there are lots around here. That IS illegal, as I checked with my county councillor, but the police don't enforce it. (The police aren't even pursuing the fraud I was a victim of a couple of months ago, so I don't have much hope.)

 

[nwhoopfan]

Some times I start to lose all faith in humanity, but other times I'm reminded there are still many really decent, friendly people in this world. I think we've all had to deal with rude, jerky people at times. But I think they are the minority still.

 

[Bama fan]

I believe that people are increasingly isolated from actual , face to face interaction with other people. There is documentation that people at work tend to be less involved in direct conversation with their co- workers than in years past. And mobility has allowed and/or necessitated people to locate away from family and close friends. The use of social media and the anonymity of these platforms further encourages alienation, so that those who do not make a sincere effort can be left to their own devices to a deleterious extent. There are many positives that arise from the exposure that the internet brings to other's opinions and interests. This should broaden our knowledge and expand our horizons. But the tendency toward confirmation bias that is innate in us allows too many to linger where only like minded fellow travelers breed in their intellectual, emotionally stunted quagmires of contempt. Rudeness becomes acceptable if others are demonized and feared. Civility only functions when people respect both themselves and each other. Homogeneity leads to emotional inbreeding and the disruption of society. Thanks in advance for your forbearance. I have found that the Boneyard is generally populated with tolerant folks who can respectfully agree to promote civil discourse And of course,Go Huskies!

 

[jaundicedeye]

No - people are no different today than they were 50 years ago. Incivility existed then and it will continue. The only difference is the mechanisms (selfies etc.) of rudeness and the ever invasive "social media" where the perpetually offended reside.

Sure, incivility existed 50 years ago but not to the scale we see today. It used to be that rude behavior was met with disapprobation and it served to help identify and separate right from wrong and acceptable from unacceptable behaviors. Now we have reached the point where calling out an inappropriate behavior is called being intolerant and unacceptable.
CL82 and Milford Husky are spot-on with their assessments concerning the negative impacts of social media and other media outlets.

 

[JordyG]

To me the media is and has always been a reflection, a snapshot of our wants our desires, and how we as a society think and behave at a particular point in time. I've never thought that the media is the tail wagging our societal tail as the other way around.

Indeed, rudeness has become a cottage industry from Kanye to coloring books. Why point toward politics when taking your son or daughter to a sporting event is a cringe worthy affair? People are loud, foul mouthed and confrontational, and you're taking your life in your hands if you (even ever so calmly) remind them so. All while paying premium prices for tickets, parking, and food. Somehow today people believe freedom of speech means freedom of behavior, no matter if it infringes on your rights.

What has really taken hold in NYC and probably around the country is a variation of a form of rudeness which prevailed in the 70's. Back then it became the obnoxious rage to walk or carry around enormous boom boxes which continually blasted a never ending train of some idiot's bad taste in music. Now the rage is to blast that poor taste to everyone via their cellphones. Today their are simply more of these clowns because a cell is easier to tote than a boom box and people are more afraid to speak out. Although there are clear laws regarding noise pollution over personal audio devices no officer seems to want to enforce this law anymore.

Other the things cellphones and the internet have done are virtually eliminating repercussions for rudeness and foulness. Not to mention repercussions for bad English and poor critcal thinking. In fact modern communication devices reward your lack of in depth reading and writing skills while they encourage skimming.

 

[BroadwayVa]

I know it doesn't sound nice, but I have an opinion that most people today believe they can and should say and do whatever they want, when ever they want, as long as it isn't illegal (and I'm not sure they all care about that).

They are confusing, in my mind, "can" as in able with "ought to" as in it is a good idea.

Some of what I am complaining about is just plain incivility, of course, but a lot of it comes from some sort of self-righteousness that I just don't understand.

I am as critical as the next guy in my mind - and about plenty of things that I don't feel I have a right to share my opinion with others unless it is as part of a discussion - but here are some examples of the sort I am talking about.

- ordering at a fast food counter (me) - "I'll have a big breakfa" - customer that walked up to the counter, loudly "my drink isn't hot and doesn't have apples in it. Fix it", patron behind me "not that you were in the middle of speaking or anything".
- driving off the wharf in Santa Cruz, narrow 2 lanes - 2 young ladies sitting - yes, sitting - in the middle of the lanes taking selfies. And today, 2 gentlemen standing, blocking my lane, yes, you guessed it, taking selfies. Not that there isn't a side walk on both sides, or anything.
- in an online discussion of handicapped parking tags, someone has a tag for a non-mobility issue, allowed in her state and her doctor insisted she get it, explained that she only uses it when there is no close spots, One person went on and on about how their state won't allow that any more and how dare she "take advantage" of a legal loophole to inconvenience people who need those spots. I'll add that her illness is life threatening.
- and speaking of handicapped spots, the hotel I'm in doesn't enforce the requirement and allows folks to park in the garage in any spot or not in any spot at all, making it a 10 minute process yesterday to get out of my spot. I don't completely blame the hotel, why would these folks part half blocking in another car?

And millions of political examples we are not going to discuss. This is just a smattering of recent examples of what I am ranting about.

Anyone agree?

When you are in a different country and not in your comfy NJ you have to expect differences
What different country you ask? Is there any country more different than Calif.??
Slightly less kidding; rudeness is rarely tolerable but my rudeness isn't rude to me!

 

[BroadwayVa]

To me the media is and has always been a reflection, a snapshot of our wants our desires, and how we as a society think and behave at a particular point in time. I've never thought that the media is the tail wagging our societal tail as the other way around.

Indeed, rudeness has become a cottage industry from Kanye to coloring books. Why point toward politics when taking your son or daughter to a sporting event is a cringe worthy affair? People are loud, foul mouthed and confrontational, and you're taking your life in your hands if you (even ever so calmly) remind them so. All while paying premium prices for tickets, parking, and food. Somehow today people believe freedom of speech means freedom of behavior, no matter if it infringes on your rights.

What has really taken hold in NYC and probably around the country is a variation of a form of rudeness which prevailed in the 70's. Back then it became the obnoxious rage to walk or carry around enormous boom boxes which continually blasted a never ending train of some idiot's bad taste in music. Now the rage is to blast that poor taste to everyone via their cellphones. Today their are simply more of these clowns because a cell is easier to tote than a boom box and people are more afraid to speak out. Although there are clear laws regarding noise pollution over personal audio devices no officer seems to want to enforce this law anymore.

Other the things cellphones and the internet have done are virtually eliminating repercussions for rudeness and foulness. Not to mention repercussions for bad English and poor critcal thinking. In fact modern communication devices reward your lack of in depth reading and writing skills while they encourage skimming.

Only one bit I truly disagree with and that is the media "reflects " society. It has been my observation and belief that the Media leads the changes in social living i.e interaction between individuals and interaction between groups.
Much of what you say can be believed to be a change in the educational systems. The fact of human learning is those things learned early are embedded into the back of the brain and are hard to change.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Some times I start to lose all faith in humanity, but other times I'm reminded there are still many really decent, friendly people in this world. I think we've all had to deal with rude, jerky people at times. But I think they are the minority still.

To be 100% candid, the vast majority of the times I venture out I experience no incivility whatsoever. It might be an interesting question: What percent of the time are you treated disrespectfully? 10%? 25%? 98%? 1%?

 

[tomcat]

I think people are civil, mostly, but the times when we experience incivlity, we REALLY see it. And now that almost everything is available online, we see the incredibly impolite person in a restaurant in London, say, and then an incident in Nevada, and road rage in Pennsylvania and a rude McDonalds patron in Oregon, and we internalize every bit of it, because it is all available to us, all the time. Who knows if there's more of it, what there is is more access to it.

There's been a lot of talk about the "media," and I think it depends on what you mean by media. If you mean not just the traditional media -- TV and journalists and their online counterparts -- but also social media (there are those who feel that Facebook should be treated like a media company, and I'm one of them), then yes, that's probably the greatest influence. But it is NOT the desire of the "media" to point out all the awfulness. It is the fact that now, because of social media, we ARE the media. Those of us who are of a certain age will always have a hard time adjusting to that concept.

 

[connie]

- ordering at a fast food counter (me) - "I'll have a big breakfa" - customer that walked up to the counter, loudly "my drink isn't hot and doesn't have apples in it. Fix it", patron behind me "not that you were in the middle of speaking or anything".
- driving off the wharf in Santa Cruz, narrow 2 lanes - 2 young ladies sitting - yes, sitting - in the middle of the lanes taking selfies. And today, 2 gentlemen standing, blocking my lane, yes, you guessed it, taking selfies. Not that there isn't a side walk on both sides, or anything.
- in an online discussion of handicapped parking tags, someone has a tag for a non-mobility issue, allowed in her state and her doctor insisted she get it, explained that she only uses it when there is no close spots, One person went on and on about how their state won't allow that any more and how dare she "take advantage" of a legal loophole to inconvenience people who need those spots. I'll add that her illness is life threatening.
- and speaking of handicapped spots, the hotel I'm in doesn't enforce the requirement and allows folks to park in the garage in any spot or not in any spot at all, making it a 10 minute process yesterday to get out of my spot. I don't completely blame the hotel, why would these folks part half blocking in another car?

Huh. Eating at restaurants. Driving off the beautiful wharf in lovely Santa Cruz. On-line discussions with people hundreds, perhaps thousands of miles away, via the remarkable achievements in computer technology. Staying at hotels... Sounds like a great life, one that provides comforts that 99.99% of every human that ever lived could scarcely dream of.

I’d recommend counting your blessings and sharing the good will. You’d be amazed at how the world gets just a little better with a bit of mirth, patience, and good cheer.

 

[JordyG]

Only one bit I truly disagree with and that is the media "reflects " society. It has been my observation and belief that the Media leads the changes in social living i.e interaction between individuals and interaction between groups.
Much of what you say can be believed to be a change in the educational systems. The fact of human learning is those things learned early are embedded into the back of the brain and are hard to change.

Name one instance in modern history where the media reported a change in societal mores, ideals, ideas, group interactions or beliefs, leading the charge when such a change was not already occurring or did not occur.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Huh. Eating at restaurants. Driving off the beautiful wharf in lovely Santa Cruz. On-line discussions with people hundreds, perhaps thousands of miles away, via the remarkable achievements in computer technology. Staying at hotels... Sounds like a great life, one that provides comforts that 99.99% of every human that ever lived could scarcely dream of.

I’d recommend counting your blessings and sharing the good will. You’d be amazed at how the world gets just a little better with a bit of mirth, patience, and good cheer.

You prove my point.

I consider myself very blessed. I am pleasant. I try very hard not to be rude. I didn't say anything to the person that interrupted me mid-word during my order. The poor cashier was mortified, but I waited patiently for her to help the aggrieved customer, then she returned and apologized (which she didn't need to do, she didn't do anything wrong). I didn't beep my horn at the folks taking selfies in the travel lane - the parking attendant at the booth commented that someday someone is going to get killed loitering in the lane. I didn't comment on the person's opinion that a handicapped person with a legal tag ordered by her doctor is somehow behaving badly. I just noted it as I read the thread. And I didn't put any nasty notes on the car partially blocking my exit from my parking spot.

I simply noted that there are, as I put it, a lot of folks who seem to believe that they can do and say what they want, when they want, not when it is necessarily appropriate. I then provided some rather obvious examples of some folks behaving that way.

The purpose was to do exactly what happened - promote a discussion of something of some interest. No one "bashed" in the discussions, good back and forth, some interesting ideas . . .

Oh - and I'm not speaking from some "wealthy" perspective. I can afford to visit Santa Cruz so that my wife, who has end stage non-alcoholic liver disease can take a glass art class , her hobby for the last 7 years, but which she isn't well enough to pursue most days. On the way home, we will be stopping at Mayo Clinic in Phoenix and getting an update on her chances for a transplant, she is on the list. I couldn't afford to live here, but enjoy the 3 day visit. It is, as you say, beautiful.

 

[connie]

Name one instance in modern history where the media reported a change in societal mores, ideals, ideals, group interactions or beliefs, leading the charge when such a change was not already occurring or did not occur.

I think you are missing the point (which I will concede is not artfully expressed). “The media” (whatever the hell that is supposed to encompass) is not a mirror or “reflection” (which appears to be the proposition to which the poster qualifiedly objected). Every moment of (re)presentation necessarily requires a process of selection and framing, of organizing a vast reality in particular ways, of managing an impossibly complex array of human practices. In representing reality, we draw from the infinite raw data of history, and give it shape and order, tone and emphasis. Even a camera attempts to tell a story by first deciding what does and does not fall within the scope of the lens.

How we come to understand the world around us is very much influenced by the way that world is made meaningful through the narratives of the world provided to us. “The media”—embedded every bit within the cultural fabric to which it contributes—play a major role in that process.

 

[connie]

You prove my point.

I consider myself very blessed. I am pleasant. I try very hard not to be rude. I didn't say anything to the person that interrupted me mid-word during my order. The poor cashier was mortified, but I waited patiently for her to help the aggrieved customer, then she returned and apologized (which she didn't need to do, she didn't do anything wrong). I didn't beep my horn at the folks taking selfies in the travel lane - the parking attendant at the booth commented that someday someone is going to get killed loitering in the lane. I didn't comment on the person's opinion that a handicapped person with a legal tag ordered by her doctor is somehow behaving badly. I just noted it as I read the thread. And I didn't put any nasty notes on the car partially blocking my exit from my parking spot.

I simply noted that there are, as I put it, a lot of folks who seem to believe that they can do and say what they want, when they want, not when it is necessarily appropriate. I then provided some rather obvious examples of some folks behaving that way.

The purpose was to do exactly what happened - promote a discussion of something of some interest. No one "bashed" in the discussions, good back and forth, some interesting ideas . . .

Oh - and I'm not speaking from some "wealthy" perspective. I can afford to visit Santa Cruz so that my wife, who has end stage non-alcoholic liver disease can take a glass art class , her hobby for the last 7 years, but which she isn't well enough to pursue most days. On the way home, we will be stopping at Mayo Clinic in Phoenix and getting an update on her chances for a transplant, she is on the list. I couldn't afford to live here, but enjoy the 3 day visit. It is, as you say, beautiful.

Ok. Message received. You believe there appear to be a lot more rude people out there. Not my experience. But even if it was, it seems rather trivial—particularly in light of what appears to be great privilege in a world filled with want.

There are many evils in the world. Someone wanting to take a selfie while standing in a road ranks rather low on my list.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

One relatively new problem with civility and manners, & courteous is most men or women wearing hats indoors, in stores, restaurants, sporting events, etc.
And the people 60 years old or older that would have never do it 15, 20 years ago are now the culprits!
And they forget they're hats are on at the playing of the National Anthem or they're walking around or talking loudly!
I'm old fashioned and I'm big on holding doors for people, taking my hat off indoors, or singing the National Anthem!
My Mother used to say, "I don't like the NEW world I like the OLD world!"
Late in my Elementary PE teaching career at a staff meeting the teachers voted on not telling the kids to take off their hats because it was a pain in the butt and I was the only teacher in the building who told the kids to take off they're hats if they forgot coming into the gym! And I had no arguments or problems doing so, I told them, "this is MY HOUSE and respect is demanded! If we go outside you may put it on then." People tend to lose morals and manners when it's a hassle!
Rudeness is running wild because it's too big a hassle to correct or your afraid you'll be killed for opening your mouth!

 

[JordyG]

I think you are missing the point (which I will concede is not artfully expressed). “The media” (whatever the hell that is supposed to encompass) is not a mirror or “reflection” (which appears to be the proposition to which the poster qualifiedly objected). Every moment of (re)presentation necessarily requires a process of selection and framing, of organizing a vast reality in particular ways, of managing an impossibly complex array of human practices. In representing reality, we draw from the infinite raw data of history, and give it shape and order, tone and emphasis. Even a camera attempts to tell a story by first deciding what does and does not fall within the scope of the lens.

How we come to understand the world around us is very much influenced by the way that world is made meaningful through the narratives of the world provided to us. “The media”—embedded every bit within the cultural fabric to which it contributes—play a major role in that process.

And that narrative is crafted and informed by those who live and breathe in this time. Those who are just as imposed and impressed by the present.

I agree partially. Yes, everything is done subjectively and history is told by the winners. We get that. The way I see it is we are all reflections of our environment, and our collective reflection is what we call society. We all say "the media" as if it were not us, as if it it were some separate, powerful but nebulous entity, constantly shaping our opinions without regard for our desires. Nonsense. There is no "The Media". There is really only "media", and that is us. The choices we make, the constant "process of selection and framing, of organizing a vast reality in particular ways, of managing an impossibly complex array of human practices" is what makes us what we are. Each one of us does so on a micro level in the now, a thousand, thousand times every day. This is what shapes us and make us the humans that we are. This media we create individually, is the personal media we want to hear, to see, to experience, or reject, or not experience. The truth is "in representing reality, we draw from the infinite raw data" of our own personal histories. Every choice the eye/mind behind the camera makes, each narrative is a reflection of that person, the million choices they've made every day, and the world they live in. Each one of us chooses on that micro level, but the aggregate decides on the macro. The camera points, and the vast larder of we of the human experience say yea, nay or abstain.

 

[Jim]

I think one thing being lost when everyone interacts with one another through electronic devices is the non-verbal communication done through body language. People are losing the ability to read other people and to communicate to others silently. As a consequence we see/hear more rude outbursts rather than the icy stares traditionally coming from my generation. Moreover, it seems the young folks these days have lost the ability to control their body language, as evidenced by the recently reposted Geno video discussing body language.

 

[tomcat]

Name one instance in modern history where the media reported a change in societal mores, ideals, ideas, group interactions or beliefs, leading the charge when such a change was not already occurring or did not occur.

I think I agree with you, though this discussion is getting to be remarkable abstract. If the media "reports," which it at least used to, it by definition has to have something about which to report. Therefore it reflects what it sees an it reports it to whatever audience it has. I was a member of th media for nearly 20 years, and that's what I did.

Where it changes is with social media, because in many cases the reporters (the "media," if you will) are the subjects of the report. If I do something groundbreaking and post video of it on YouTube, I'm the medium AND the message, to borrow syntax from a media guru of decades ago. And this happens all the time now. The media leads the change because it is the person who is doing the leading. Now whether this is little stuff or sweeping societal change is open to debate, but it does happen.

Jordy, it is not that you are wrong. You aren't. But if you count the media as things like me posting on YouTube, things are changing. Right now they are changing on a micro level -- little advances or changes. I'd guess that over time, that is how we will increasingly find out how bigger changes are happening.

 

[Bigboote]

To be 100% candid, the vast majority of the times I venture out I experience no incivility whatsoever. It might be an interesting question: What percent of the time are you treated disrespectfully? 10%? 25%? 98%? 1%?

That's an interesting question and very dependent on viewpoint. I would say 90+% of the time I'm out, I experience something I consider uncivil. I stop for groceries just about every day on the way home from work. Seldom does a day go by that I don't observe: people idling cars for no reason and/or parking in the fire lane; people talking excessively loud on their phones (especially the people who hold the damn thing at arms length and shout and have it turned up so loud that you can hear the person on the other end); people texting and driving (I was nearly struck by a car the other day on my bike and the guy didn't ever see me even after I yelled and gestured at him); yakking or texting on their phones when their kids are trying to get their attention. Except for actually observing someone texting and driving, I see ALL of these most days.

While none of this is directed at me, I consider all of it uncivil, and much of it is illegal (not that that necessarily bothers me). You might not. The other thing is that it's not 90+% of interactions. The vast majority of the people I observe are behaving quite well, but there are always some who are being downright obnoxious and often nasty, and as has been pointed out, they stand out.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

That's an interesting question and very dependent on viewpoint. I would say 90+% of the time I'm out, I experience something I consider uncivil. I stop for groceries just about every day on the way home from work. Seldom does a day go by that I don't observe: people idling cars for no reason and/or parking in the fire lane; people talking excessively loud on their phones (especially the people who hold the damn thing at arms length and shout and have it turned up so loud that you can hear the person on the other end); people texting and driving (I was nearly struck by a car the other day on my bike and the guy didn't ever see me even after I yelled and gestured at him); yakking or texting on their phones when their kids are trying to get their attention. Except for actually observing someone texting and driving, I see ALL of these most days.

While none of this is directed at me, I consider all of it uncivil, and much of it is illegal (not that that necessarily bothers me). You might not. The other thing is that it's not 90+% of interactions. The vast majority of the people I observe are behaving quite well, but there are always some who are being downright obnoxious and often nasty, and as has been pointed out, they stand out.

And ultimately, that was my point. Not that people are going around intentionally being rude, rather, that folks go around doing what they want regardless of how that impacts others. And I agree with you, little (mostly, none) is directed at me and it is a small percentage of folks who are behaving that way. But you certainly (it seems to me) see it often enough when previously you didn't to merit this discussion. A very good one, I'll add.

 

[eebmg]

Never thought I would enter this thread but just thought a cross reference to Serena's'lack of civility may not be out of place
while Osaka's composure shows that honor still exists.