OT: College in the COVID era

[upstater]

Won't all this probably be over in a year when she would be entering college? It better be over in a year! This virus blows.

Depends on the vaccine, I suppose.

But who knows what will be left of the schools.

No one knows how many will just cut departments or move things permanently online.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Definitely defer for a year if she doesn't want to experience this, but I suspect this year's classes are going to have the easiest admission process in over 2 decades of stiff competition.

The economics out there are really really bad for parents of students entering Higher Ed.

One of my major guiding principles in life is cash is king. And those with cash on hand going in to a crisis end up stronger coming out of crisis than vis a vis their strength going in to a crisis. Those families who have the ability to pay retail or close to retail price for a university are going to have access to schools they normally wouldn't have just because they can help sustain the bottom line.

 

[CL82]

We visited BU last fall. I'm not a fan, hate the non-campus urban setting. She liked it more than me.

A good friend of mine, now and from my UConn days, die hard UConn hoops fan who often took his eldest son to Gampel, has his son attending Syracuse as a freshman this year. That is taking the bullet right in the forehead. My kid isn't interested in sports and BC is a good school.

But, it’s just... wrong.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Definitely defer for a year if she doesn't want to experience this, but I suspect this year's classes are going to have the easiest admission process in over 2 decades of stiff competition.

The economics out there are really really bad for parents of students entering Higher Ed.

Yeah, but we are next year’s classes, which may be the most competitive ever. It’s a crappy position to be in, So much is uncertain. As @Chin Diesel noted, ability to pay may help. But ability to pay and desire to pay are two different things. I don’t have much desire to pay full boat private school tuition. If I do it will need to tick boxes 1, 2 and 3 below strongly.

I look at college as providing three things 1. Education, 2. A credential and 3. A safe introduction to adult life and independence. The ratio would vary in terms of what each kid is really getting, with any of the three possibly being the most important thing. My current view of online college is that it puts the weight very heavily on the Credential. My sense of my daughter is that she needs all three.

 

[Letsgohuskies11]

Not that U.S. News and World Report is the be all end all of a school's competitiveness and reputation, but BC is #37 and BU is #40 in the national universities ranking.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

Here's another national universities ranking that has BU #30 and BC #82.

Best universities in the United States 2025

Which is the top college in the US? Use this table of the best universities in the US to find the right institution for you and to gain more information on the costs and application process to study in the US

www.timeshighereducation.com

Here's another one that includes all colleges and universities that has BC at #48 and BU at #60.

2025 Best Colleges in America

Explore the Top 100 colleges in America based on statistics and student reviews.

www.niche.com

Point being, their competitiveness and reputation aren't that different.

Must be more thinking of when i went to school 15 years ago, BU was more on UConn's level if not around it

 

[Chin Diesel]

Yeah, but we are next year’s classes, which may be the most competitive ever. It’s a crappy position to be in, So much is uncertain. As @Chin Diesel noted, ability to pay may help. But ability to pay and desire to pay are two different things. I don’t have much desire to pay full boat private school tuition. If I do it will need to tick boxes 1, 2 and 3 below strongly.

I look at college as providing three things 1. Education, 2. A credential and 3. A safe introduction to adult life and independence. The ratio would vary in terms of what each kid is really getting, with any of the three possibly being the most important thing. My current view of online college is that it puts the weight very heavily on the Credential. My sense of my daughter is that she needs all three.

Going forward #2 is way more important than #1 in many career fields IMO. I don't have numbers in front of me but close to 50% of grads end up in careers different than their college degree. Getting a degree is still best step towards starting a career but getting certifications/credentials for evolving career fields is crucial for advancement and promotion.
#3, as you said, varies greatly on the child. Big school v. small school, city v. rural and a bunch of other areas where kids want to grow and more importantly, need to grow.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Must be more thinking of when i went to school 15 years ago, BU was more on UConn's level if not around it

From 2008 to 2015 it went up 15 spots. Not as much as Northeastern, which was the biggest climber. When I applied to UConn in 1984, Northeastern was a regional school known mostly for its co-op program. Both continued to go up through 2019.

I think all of these trends show how schools game these rankings (and how little these rankings should matter). Many public schools have restrictions on who they admit that don't let them game the rankings as effectively. US News rankings are pretty much garbage, but unfortunately people place value on them.

 

[Letsgohuskies11]

From 2008 to 2015 it went up 15 spots. Not as much as Northeastern, which was the biggest climber. When I applied to UConn in 1984, Northeastern was a regional school known mostly for its co-op program. Both continued to go up through 2019.

I think all of these trends show how schools game these rankings (and how little these rankings should matter). Many public schools have restrictions on who they admit that don't let them game the rankings as effectively. US News rankings are pretty much garbage, but unfortunately people place value on them.

I went to UConn 04-08 so that's probably why

 

[upstater]

Yeah, but we are next year’s classes, which may be the most competitive ever. It’s a crappy position to be in, So much is uncertain. As @Chin Diesel noted, ability to pay may help. But ability to pay and desire to pay are two different things. I don’t have much desire to pay full boat private school tuition. If I do it will need to tick boxes 1, 2 and 3 below strongly.

I look at college as providing three things 1. Education, 2. A credential and 3. A safe introduction to adult life and independence. The ratio would vary in terms of what each kid is really getting, with any of the three possibly being the most important thing. My current view of online college is that it puts the weight very heavily on the Credential. My sense of my daughter is that she needs all three.

I have 2 middle school/high school kids myself, and though I have a good idea of what each school would be offering my kid, I sympathize with you.

Know that we're entering a demographic dip that's been prepared for long before Covid (fewer kids will be applying to college in the next 5-8 years than we've seen since the 1990s. This was true BEFORE Covid.

In many ways, we'll have it easier than those to come after us.

My concern is that parents like you are not going to have any information to be able to judge colleges since the economic devastation will not be transparent. You're not going to know which departments have been gutted. Which schools have very very low morale among faculty and students.

Pay attention to endowments, if you choose a private school. For public schools, look up the DOE numbers to see which schools are top heavy with administrators, and compare that to how much they spend per student. The same research would actually apply to private schools as well.

Inside the academic community, there have always been some schools with stellar reputations that the outside world doesn't know much about. I gave one such example earlier: Hampshire. Hamilton would be another. There are schools like these that are known for catering to the educational growth of students much more than other schools.

I'm in the same boat as you at the end of the day, though I'm much less concerned about competition for spots. Schools will be struggling to find students over the next decade.

 

[upstater]

Going forward #2 is way more important than #1 in many career fields IMO. I don't have numbers in front of me but close to 50% of grads end up in careers different than their college degree. Getting a degree is still best step towards starting a career but getting certifications/credentials for evolving career fields is crucial for advancement and promotion.
#3, as you said, varies greatly on the child. Big school v. small school, city v. rural and a bunch of other areas where kids want to grow and more importantly, need to grow.

Wouldn't this mean that #1 is much more important?

In other words, if most end up in careers other than those which they expected/started in, their abilities and their education will be what is most essential. By #2, credential, I think he meant the degree from a certain university.

 

[upstater]

I went to BU, wife went to BC. I chose BU over higher ranked schools and didn't regret it.
If your daughter really wants BU and they give you a good financial package, I'd say go for it. Even though it seems there is no campus, it's just not obvious to visitors. BU Beach and Bay State Road are essentially outdoor hangouts closed off from the rest of Boston. The rest of the campus is actually clustered pretty closely together.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I went to BU, wife went to BC. I chose BU over higher ranked schools and didn't regret it.
If your daughter really wants BU and they give you a good financial package, I'd say go for it. Even though it seems there is no campus, it's just not obvious to visitors. BU Beach and Bay State Road are essentially outdoor hangouts closed off from the rest of Boston. The rest of the campus is actually clustered pretty closely together.

We wouldn't get a penny from BU. The only aid I can possibly get is merit aid, and I wouldn't expect that from BU. BU isn't her first choice right now, but it wasn't on her "out" list (like UConn and Fairfield were). So far she liked Tufts, Holy Cross, Bentley and UVM the most. She doesn't want to be at a rural school.

Is there a link to a DOE site where I can look up the financials of public schools? If I Google all I get is pages and pages of COVID related stuff now.

Edit: and yes, by credential I mean the value of a degree from X school vs Y school. Yale vs UConn vs Quinnipiac vs CCSU. I think that prestige credential is a lot of what people are paying for (as evidenced by the admissions scandals).

 

[upstater]

We wouldn't get a penny from BU. The only aid I can possibly get is merit aid, and I wouldn't expect that from BU. BU isn't her first choice right now, but it wasn't on her "out" list (like UConn and Fairfield were). So far she liked Tufts, Holy Cross, Bentley and UVM the most. She doesn't want to be at a rural school.

Is there a link to a DOE site where I can look up the financials of public schools? If I Google all I get is pages and pages of COVID related stuff now.

Edit: and yes, by credential I mean the value of a degree from X school vs Y school. Yale vs UConn vs Quinnipiac vs CCSU. I think that prestige credential is a lot of what people are paying for (as evidenced by the admissions scandals).

Wow--I didn't realize what a mess DOE was.

Try this, but apologies in advance for having to go through the muck: The Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System

Just look at %s of funding for instruction vs. for administration, and then realize that some schools simply have a lot more money, so expenditures per student would be a 3rd very valuable stat.

After that, you are just going to each school's department webpage for a sense of how many tenured faculty they have in order to determine the strength of programs.

As for degree, it probably counts quite a bit if you're going Ivy, or say accounting from a school noted for it, but otherwise probably not much. Students also make networking connections at a great many schools. If you want to be a lawyer in Buffalo, for instance, then Canisius may be a good option for undergrad.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Wouldn't this mean that #1 is much more important?

In other words, if most end up in careers other than those which they expected/started in, their abilities and their education will be what is most essential. By #2, credential, I think he meant the degree from a certain university.

I was referencing #1 in terms of costs. Just get a degree from an accredited university and start living. Eventually you figure out what you are good and adjust.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Here's a story on how crazy admissions are for this class. There is a lot to unpack here, with quotes from people at Temple, Tulane, Cornell etc. The net result is that all of these schools will adapt, and adapt in different ways. So a kid like mine may be out where she'd normally be in or in where she'd normally be out.

Still, schools said students may emerge the winners from all this turmoil. While schools are bracing for a rough year, the net-net for students may be a unique opportunity, as those who might have been "prematurely judged" on less-than-stellar SAT or ACT scores may now get a more careful consideration.

"We really haven't historically gone to that level of minutia detail in evaluating one's candidacy for admission," Abbott said. "Now, we're sort of going to have to, and [students are] going to get a closer look and a chance to stand out in [the] admissions process through other attributes."

 

[8893]

Good seven-minute listen that summarizes what we know--and don't--about pretty much every issue discussed in this thread:

So much is uncertain.

This has never been truer. I was on a Zoom parents' council meeting last night with the Senior VP of my oldest daughter's college and he described this as the biggest challenge to face higher education in modern history.

That's why the advice you might get from me and others who have been through it before is likely to be essentially useless. It will mean something different for each school. Her school is not at risk of going under, but several others are; and in any event their decision late last week to go solely remote in the fall is causing a $30M budget hole that they will have to fill by furloughing staff.

That makes this particularly valuable advice:

My concern is that parents like you are not going to have any information to be able to judge colleges since the economic devastation will not be transparent. You're not going to know which departments have been gutted. Which schools have very very low morale among faculty and students.

Pay attention to endowments, if you choose a private school. For public schools, look up the DOE numbers to see which schools are top heavy with administrators, and compare that to how much they spend per student. The same research would actually apply to private schools as well.

The only other thing I would add is to be open. These are new times and this is a sea change. It has actually made me even more appreciative of her Jesuit, liberal arts college education because I think these are the people who will be helping to create solutions for this new world. I can see it happening before my eyes and it's fascinating to watch.

As but one example, we spoke last night about her "capstone" project, which is supposed to be done senior year. It is a collaborative project that results in a published final product, which you would ostensibly showcase to potential employers as something you helped create. Once they announced going solely remote for the fall, she was reconsidering whether she should put it off until the spring so she, and the final product, could benefit from in-person collaboration. She decided to ask her advisor, who very promptly sent her back a detailed, thoughtful response, noting that much of the work would need to be done this way anyway. The more we talked about it, I was thinking of your frequent comments about the changing nature of the future workplace, with remote working being permanently much, much more common going forward. With that in mind, this experience will likely better prepare her for the work she'll actually be doing after she graduates, and she'd be able to market that aspect of it to potential employers as well--especially if she takes a leadership role in making it happen so that the virtual collaboration results in a great product.

The bottom line is we have to look for the opportunities. They are changing, but they are still there.

 

[8893]

Here's a story on how crazy admissions are for this class. There is a lot to unpack here, with quotes from people at Temple, Tulane, Cornell etc. The net result is that all of these schools will adapt, and adapt in different ways. So a kid like mine may be out where she'd normally be in or in where she'd normally be out.

Still, schools said students may emerge the winners from all this turmoil. While schools are bracing for a rough year, the net-net for students may be a unique opportunity, as those who might have been "prematurely judged" on less-than-stellar SAT or ACT scores may now get a more careful consideration.

"We really haven't historically gone to that level of minutia detail in evaluating one's candidacy for admission," Abbott said. "Now, we're sort of going to have to, and [students are] going to get a closer look and a chance to stand out in [the] admissions process through other attributes."

Glad you heard that already. I was thinking of you when I heard it on my drive in this morning.

 

[CL82]

Yeah, but we are next year’s classes, which may be the most competitive ever. It’s a crappy position to be in, So much is uncertain. As @Chin Diesel noted, ability to pay may help. But ability to pay and desire to pay are two different things. I don’t have much desire to pay full boat private school tuition. If I do it will need to tick boxes 1, 2 and 3 below strongly.

I look at college as providing three things 1. Education, 2. A credential and 3. A safe introduction to adult life and independence. The ratio would vary in terms of what each kid is really getting, with any of the three possibly being the most important thing. My current view of online college is that it puts the weight very heavily on the Credential. My sense of my daughter is that she needs all three.

This was a good thread idea and a good discussion. I think your 3 point analysis above is a good one. It is number 3 that is going to be the issue. Logically, a good county college is a much more efficient way to take introductory courses. I didn't go that way with my kids because, 1) I can afford not to and 2) I felt that the social aspects of college are important. I am uncertain whether your daughter will get that attending in a COVID restricted world. Does it make sense to have her attend classes in her dorm room? Are you just putting her in a giant petri dish for no reason?

I think, if I were in your shoes, I I would go through the normal admissions process. You have no idea what the world will be like a year from now. Perhaps vaccinations and therapeutics will have advanced to the point that the risk of the disease will be mitigated to the point that a semi-normal experience is attainable. You can always ask for a deferral if circumstances change.

I feel for kids who senior year, both in HS and college have been impacted by COVID. Those are things you just can't get back.

 

[upstater]

Good seven-minute listen that summarizes what we know--and don't--about pretty much every issue discussed in this thread:




This has never been truer. I was on a Zoom parents' council meeting last night with the Senior VP of my oldest daughter's college and he described this as the biggest challenge to face higher education in modern history.

That's why the advice you might get from me and others who have been through it before is likely to be essentially useless. It will mean something different for each school. Her school is not at risk of going under, but several others are; and in any event their decision late last week to go solely remote in the fall is causing a $30M budget hole that they will have to fill by furloughing staff.

That makes this particularly valuable advice:



The only other thing I would add is to be open. These are new times and this is a sea change. It has actually made me even more appreciative of her Jesuit, liberal arts college education because I think these are the people who will be helping to create solutions for this new world. I can see it happening before my eyes and it's fascinating to watch.

As but one example, we spoke last night about her "capstone" project, which is supposed to be done senior year. It is a collaborative project that results in a published final product, which you would ostensibly showcase to potential employers as something you helped create. Once they announced going solely remote for the fall, she was reconsidering whether she should put it off until the spring so she, and the final product, could benefit from in-person collaboration. She decided to ask her advisor, who very promptly sent her back a detailed, thoughtful response, noting that much of the work would need to be done this way anyway. The more we talked about it, I was thinking of your frequent comments about the changing nature of the future workplace, with remote working being permanently much, much more common going forward. With that in mind, this experience will likely better prepare her for the work she'll actually be doing after she graduates, and she'd be able to market that aspect of it to potential employers as well--especially if she takes a leadership role in making it happen so that the virtual collaboration results in a great product.

The bottom line is we have to look for the opportunities. They are changing, but they are still there.

Great post. I think having the skills to do research and knowing how to analyze it and present it will be the essential skills of the future, and those skills can develop between multiple fields.

It is really hard to predict what the future will look like even 10 years from now, so why not simply apply yourself and dedicate yourself, and train, in how to organize information? This is essentially what goes on in every single college department, in a systematized way.

 

[upstater]

This was a good thread idea and a good discussion. I think your 3 point analysis above is a good one. It is number 3 that is going to be the issue. Logically, a good county college is a much more efficient way to take introductory courses. I didn't go that way with my kids because, 1) I can afford not to and 2) I felt that the social aspects of college are important. I am uncertain whether your daughter will get that attending in a COVID restricted world. Does it make sense to have her attend classes in her dorm room? Are you just putting her in a giant petri dish for no reason?

I think, if I were in your shoes, I I would go through the normal admissions process. You have no idea what the world will be like a year from now. Perhaps vaccinations and therapeutics will have advanced to the point that the risk of the disease will be mitigated to the point that a semi-normal experience is attainable. You can always ask for a deferral if circumstances change.

I feel for kids who senior year, both in HS and college have been impacted by COVID. Those are things you just can't get back.

This whole covid thing is going to radically change education and push it even further into where we were going with it already, and in this landscape, the push toward community colleges will not be good. Higher Ed is answering the pressures of financing an education by upping the number of requirements for majors and lowering the amount of electives in order to maximize training and expertise in a subject field while minimizing time to attainment.

Look up NY state's Excelsior program (free college for those making under $120k) and you will see they want you out the door in less than 3 years, so they've tailored the majors in that way. We've had kids who were backcharged tuition BECAUSE they double majored.

 

[HuskyHawk]

This was a good thread idea and a good discussion. I think your 3 point analysis above is a good one. It is number 3 that is going to be the issue. Logically, a good county college is a much more efficient way to take introductory courses. I didn't go that way with my kids because, 1) I can afford not to and 2) I felt that the social aspects of college are important. I am uncertain whether your daughter will get that attending in a COVID restricted world. Does it make sense to have her attend classes in her dorm room? Are you just putting her in a giant petri dish for no reason?

I think, if I were in your shoes, I I would go through the normal admissions process. You have no idea what the world will be like a year from now. Perhaps vaccinations and therapeutics will have advanced to the point that the risk of the disease will be mitigated to the point that a semi-normal experience is attainable. You can always ask for a deferral if circumstances change.

I feel for kids who senior year, both in HS and college have been impacted by COVID. Those are things you just can't get back.

We are planning on as normal a process as is possible. Did visits last fall, cancelled planned visits to Philly this spring. UNH up for next Monday, pleased that they are doing tours. BC and Northeastern visits will come, but with no tour for now, just a walk through. Probably PC too, although it makes my wife cringe since so many kids from my daughter's HS go there. I seriously doubt she'd get into Brown, but maybe visit there too, she once played 5th grade basketball on their court at halftime. With no test scores, who knows? More distant schools we might have considered are even harder to look at now.

I have a webinar tonight from College Board on this topic. My growing sense is that kids should apply to more than the usual number of schools, because you just don't know. If we need to defer, even next year, we can do that. But having the greatest number of options seems like the best position to be in. My daughter desperately needs the in person social element of college. She's gone to private school since K, and not with anybody she knows locally in our neighborhood (which is fairly isolated).

 

[Chin Diesel]

This whole covid thing is going to radically change education and push it even further into where we were going with it already, and in this landscape, the push toward community colleges will not be good. Higher Ed is answering the pressures of financing an education by upping the number of requirements for majors and lowering the amount of electives in order to maximize training and expertise in a subject field while minimizing time to attainment.

Look up NY state's Excelsior program (free college for those making under $120k) and you will see they want you out the door in less than 3 years, so they've tailored the majors in that way. We've had kids who were backcharged tuition BECAUSE they double majored.

The cynic in me says it's amazing at how flexible state mandated education requirements can be when the state is footing the bill for the education.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Good seven-minute listen that summarizes what we know--and don't--about pretty much every issue discussed in this thread:




This has never been truer. I was on a Zoom parents' council meeting last night with the Senior VP of my oldest daughter's college and he described this as the biggest challenge to face higher education in modern history.

That's why the advice you might get from me and others who have been through it before is likely to be essentially useless. It will mean something different for each school. Her school is not at risk of going under, but several others are; and in any event their decision late last week to go solely remote in the fall is causing a $30M budget hole that they will have to fill by furloughing staff.

That makes this particularly valuable advice:



The only other thing I would add is to be open. These are new times and this is a sea change. It has actually made me even more appreciative of her Jesuit, liberal arts college education because I think these are the people who will be helping to create solutions for this new world. I can see it happening before my eyes and it's fascinating to watch.

As but one example, we spoke last night about her "capstone" project, which is supposed to be done senior year. It is a collaborative project that results in a published final product, which you would ostensibly showcase to potential employers as something you helped create. Once they announced going solely remote for the fall, she was reconsidering whether she should put it off until the spring so she, and the final product, could benefit from in-person collaboration. She decided to ask her advisor, who very promptly sent her back a detailed, thoughtful response, noting that much of the work would need to be done this way anyway. The more we talked about it, I was thinking of your frequent comments about the changing nature of the future workplace, with remote working being permanently much, much more common going forward. With that in mind, this experience will likely better prepare her for the work she'll actually be doing after she graduates, and she'd be able to market that aspect of it to potential employers as well--especially if she takes a leadership role in making it happen so that the virtual collaboration results in a great product.

The bottom line is we have to look for the opportunities. They are changing, but they are still there.

I like the way you tied this in to what I've been saying about the future digital workplace, that makes sense. On the plus side, she has had remote school since March, and hybrid to start the year so will get some of that in HS too. It's a Catholic school that has done a really good job with COVID. She participated in a program last summer that was offered by my employer, and enjoyed it. Learned some of what employers are looking for, some skills kids don't usually think about.

There are certainly some future opportunities, and I suppose I am fortunate to work in an industry that gives me better than average visibility to some of that. I've tried to think about what she likes and is good at, and match that to emerging areas for employment.

 

[CL82]

We are planning on as normal a process as is possible. Did visits last fall, cancelled planned visits to Philly this spring. UNH up for next Monday, pleased that they are doing tours. BC and Northeastern visits will come, but with no tour for now, just a walk through. Probably PC too, although it makes my wife cringe since so many kids from my daughter's HS go there. I seriously doubt she'd get into Brown, but maybe visit there too, she once played 5th grade basketball on their court at halftime. With no test scores, who knows? More distant schools we might have considered are even harder to look at now.

I have a webinar tonight from College Board on this topic. My growing sense is that kids should apply to more than the usual number of schools, because you just don't know. If we need to defer, even next year, we can do that. But having the greatest number of options seems like the best position to be in. My daughter desperately needs the in person social element of college. She's gone to private school since K, and not with anybody she knows locally in our neighborhood (which is fairly isolated).

I completely understand and agree with your point. FWIW, one of the coolest things is talking to kids on the freshmen year winter break. I've seen it with my kids and with their friends, kids I've coached, etc. They are just... more mature and experienced. They sound less like kids and more like adults. They have a wealth of experiences and interactions that give them more personal depth. It applies equally for social adept and more reserved kids. I think there is tremendous value to having her experience it with other freshmen. They all figure out roles together. I hope she has a shot at that. I think she will. By next year the disease and how we handle it are going to be more routine.

 

[8893]

I am calling it right now: @HuskyHawk 's eyas is going to UVM.