OT: College in the COVID era

[upstater]

Elon Musk nailed it.

Going to college for an education is a waste of time and money. Everything you need to become educated is on the internet for free.

Only societal function left for universities is the soft skills while teens turn in to young adults- learning to socialize with groups beyond your youth, learning to manage time, starting to learn how to manage money, and all that stuff.

He's clearly an example of someone who had a good launching pad, when your Dad is worth tens of millions. I don't know what or why he says the things he does, maybe to maintain a level of kook and crazy, but I'll expect that he doesn't really believe in any of these things, because surely his U. Penn education was lost on hm, if that's what he believes in.

I reject the idea that it's all available on the internet but if you don't really care about your college education and just want a degree, then clearly it is a waste of money.

If you work it though there is value there that you won't find elsewhere without guidance.

 

[huskyrob1]

Please, no politics. It’s not about that. Let’s keep this out of the cesspool please.

My daughter is a “rising senior” in HS (I dislike the phrase). So far SATs have repeatedly been cancelled. She has one scheduled for September. Almost no schools are allowing visits. Most colleges have gone SAT/ACT optional, but what will that mean for those with or without test scores? A COVID essay has been added to the standard application. Meanwhile, some significant percentage (I heard 20% at Harvard) of recent graduates are deferring admission. What does that mean for the class of 2021? Fewer available slots? Massive class sizes?

it feels chaotic to me. For those of you with kids in college, or perhaps about to attend or with a HS Jr. or Sr. what are you doing? How are you approaching it? I have a webinar with the college board Wednesday night on applying to college in the COVID era. Not sure what to expect, they would be somewhat biased towards SATs obviously. I suppose we should be glad we took a few visits in the fall of 2019. But it doesn’t feel adequate. I’m not sure when we will get the needed remaining visits in, virtual isn’t helpful.

Then there are finances. The schools need money, so how will that impact things like merit aid? Or perhaps admitting kids below the median because they can pay. On the flip side, with so many out of work, will that shift more kids to lower cost options like CCSU?

I felt like I had a decent handle on this before COVID. Now? Not sure what to do next.

There is a strong possibility that there will be a vaccine in four months. Doesn't that change things looking forward to 2021 and beyond?

 

[HuskyHawk]

There is a strong possibility that there will be a vaccine in four months. Doesn't that change things looking forward to 2021 and beyond?

No, since applications will be sent out probably in October. She can take the SAT next month (hopefully) but won't have scores before she applies. All the schools are now test optional, but nobody including the admissions officers (saw a webinar with one from UConn) knows how they will determine who to admit. Most of them will be making it up as they go. Then add the deferrals from the 2020 HS class and you have a disaster.

Not sure what a vaccine does anyway. It doesn't stop you from getting the virus, it just makes you largely asymptomatic if you do...just like college kids already are.

 

[upstater]

No, since applications will be sent out probably in October. She can take the SAT next month (hopefully) but won't have scores before she applies. All the schools are now test optional, but nobody including the admissions officers (saw a webinar with one from UConn) knows how they will determine who to admit. Most of them will be making it up as they go. Then add the deferrals from the 2020 HS class and you have a disaster.

Not sure what a vaccine does anyway. It doesn't stop you from getting the virus, it just makes you largely asymptomatic if you do...just like college kids already are.

Just wondering: what is a Covid essay?

 

[HooperScooper]

Oooga booga.

Its not that terrible. Id send my daughter there no problem.

You'd send your daughter there but would you want her walking off campus at night? Have you been there at night? You might want to walk around there yourself and tell me how comfortable you would be letting your daughter walk around there by herself at night.

I went to a similar school in a similar area (actually a little better neighborhood, but not by much) and there were three rapes off campus my first semester. Of course I was an 18 year old male who was oblivious to all that. But as a parent I know more now.

 

[Chin Diesel]

He's clearly an example of someone who had a good launching pad, when your Dad is worth tens of millions. I don't know what or why he says the things he does, maybe to maintain a level of kook and crazy, but I'll expect that he doesn't really believe in any of these things, because surely his U. Penn education was lost on hm, if that's what he believes in.

I reject the idea that it's all available on the internet but if you don't really care about your college education and just want a degree, then clearly it is a waste of money.

If you work it though there is value there that you won't find elsewhere without guidance.

He i saying all the math, all the English and reading, all the history, all the information in your text books are on the web for free.

If you want to learn, you don't have to go to a university.

As he said you go to school to learn how to adult.

If you want your viewpoints challenged you can click on any number of people who have different viewpoints.

You can engage others via chats and online groups.

I don't see medical school going online because you need a level of hands on training including non-verbal cues from humans.

But if you want a history degree, math, degree or many others you don't need to be on campus.

 

[Chin Diesel]

He's clearly an example of someone who had a good launching pad, when your Dad is worth tens of millions. I don't know what or why he says the things he does, maybe to maintain a level of kook and crazy, but I'll expect that he doesn't really believe in any of these things, because surely his U. Penn education was lost on hm, if that's what he believes in.

I reject the idea that it's all available on the internet but if you don't really care about your college education and just want a degree, then clearly it is a waste of money.

If you work it though there is value there that you won't find elsewhere without guidance.

Your last comment is the key selling point going forward. Universities need to sell the value of in person classes. As someone else said in this thread top tier universities sell their brand and their networks.
The rest of colleges are going to need to justify their purpose to prospective undergrads. And quantifying that value would he even more valuable.

 

[Chin Diesel]

And this right here is a major reason this country gets dumber and dumber.

You're living proof.

Yikes...try hard.

He's a breathing meme much like Kanye, B1GEAST, Old Socky, Kolumbo, Sparkler, Dupester etc.

Four posts and you've still said nothing.

 

[Lefty2one]

Going to college for an education is a waste of time and money. Everything you need to become educated is on the internet for free.

While we all love that (paraphrased) Good Will Hunting quote, unfortunately that's largely irrelevant unless you're going to be an entrepreneur. College today is just a means to an end and a necessary, expensive evil; for a majority of fields, that piece of paper they hand you on graduation day is more important than the knowledge you gained on campus. The brand and network of your school is more important than your level of knowledge.

People who hold Master's have to settle for entry-level jobs and a standard undergraduate degree is largely useless today. If you can't get your foot in the door with that, you aren't getting in the door with a resume of "I taught myself all this cool stuff on YouTube". That's not how the game is played. Your resume will be thrown in the trash and you'll never get a callback.

It's yet another example of how broken our education system is.

 

[Lefty2one]

He's clearly an example of someone who had a good launching pad, when your Dad is worth tens of millions. I don't know what or why he says the things he does, maybe to maintain a level of kook and crazy, but I'll expect that he doesn't really believe in any of these things, because surely his U. Penn education was lost on hm, if that's what he believes in.

Right. He's clearly a bright, successful guy but he's another one who was born on 3rd and thinks he hit a triple. He doesn't know what life would be like without that Ivy League education or daddy's millions.

 

[upstater]

He i saying all the math, all the English and reading, all the history, all the information in your text books are on the web for free.

But if you want a history degree, math, degree or many others you don't need to be on campus.

But they're not.

I can give so many examples.

Who would know to look at a lineage of ideas in the randomness of the internet?

 

[upstater]

Your last comment is the key selling point going forward. Universities need to sell the value of in person classes. As someone else said in this thread top tier universities sell their brand and their networks.
The rest of colleges are going to need to justify their purpose to prospective undergrads. And quantifying that value would he even more valuable.

I teach my own children the exact opposite of all of this.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I teach my own children the exact opposite of all of this.

Teach your kids the opposite of what? Understanding value? Knowing the difference between quantitative and qualitative? In person classes?

Universities spend millions promoting themselves to prospective students. They'll tell you how many of their students were National Merit or Honor Scholars, how many states and countries they draw students from, they'll talk about university wide accolades and program specific rankings. They'll promote diversity of the student body, engagement in clubs, greeks, etc. They'll promote safety numbers on campus for parents and the safety of the surrounding community.

Doesn't make any of what they are doing right or wrong but I believe the story and narrative they promote should focus on value of the university to the student.

Students who are interested in Ivies and top tier schools are doing it for the challenge but also for the opportunities while as a student and for the opportunities after they graduate. No one is walking in to Harvard for pre-law unaware of its law school's reputation.

 

[NJHusky]

Are we really going to get into this here?

Synchronous/asynchronous for super huge classes is totally irrelevant. You're not responding to a classroom of thousands. Whether it's real-time or not.

But when it comes to teaching, we're not just responsible to students, but also to the course content and the history of knowledge. There are a lot of good arguments about how dwindling the number of teachers will have a detrimental impact on the latter.

And really it's al being done in the name of some tech guys who don't know the first thing about teaching, and all they see is scalable profits.

Honestly, for asynchronous learning, all you need is one professor for the entire internet and a bunch of grad students to answer the occasional question. You don't even need zoom...just put the presentation on youtube

 

[upstater]

Honestly, for asynchronous learning, all you need is one professor for the entire internet and a bunch of grad students to answer the occasional question. You don't even need zoom...just put the presentation on youtube

The grad students are not experts in their field. This is why they are given introductory classes.

 

[upstater]

Teach your kids the opposite of what? Understanding value? Knowing the difference between quantitative and qualitative? In person classes?

Universities spend millions promoting themselves to prospective students. They'll tell you how many of their students were National Merit or Honor Scholars, how many states and countries they draw students from, they'll talk about university wide accolades and program specific rankings. They'll promote diversity of the student body, engagement in clubs, greeks, etc. They'll promote safety numbers on campus for parents and the safety of the surrounding community.

Doesn't make any of what they are doing right or wrong but I believe the story and narrative they promote should focus on value of the university to the student.

Students who are interested in Ivies and top tier schools are doing it for the challenge but also for the opportunities while as a student and for the opportunities after they graduate. No one is walking in to Harvard for pre-law unaware of its law school's reputation.

That the important thing is the brand and the network at each university. That the top schools aren't providing a superior education.

Why can't the current model of university survive much longer?

 

[HuskyHawk]

Just wondering: what is a Covid essay?

They added a COVID component to the common application. The intent is so that these kids don’t write their main essay on COVID. They get to ramble on about the awfulness of it all and the admissions people can all ignore it instead of reading 50,000 essays on the same topic.

 

[NJHusky]

The grad students are not experts in their field. This is why they are given introductory classes.

no one said Grad students were the experts, but for undergrad they can answer most questions. I'm a STEM guy....I don't think differential equations or basic chemistry changes so quickly that professors are revamping their syllabus every semester. When I was in school, we sat in lecture hall and took notes/copied what the professor was doing...then when home and figured it out before the test..Except for labs, that's really how every class I had was....sometimes the teacher was using a book he wrote, sometimes he wasn't

In this case, I don't see how I got any more value than if I was able to watch a youtube video....as often as I wanted to in case I missed something.

But, I also totally agree with Lefty that the lasting value is the diploma from the name school and the network you build there...

I think it was an administrator from Harvard, when asked if they were going to decrease tuition because classes were online...her response...NO..graduates will still have a degree from Harvard

 

[upstater]

no one said Grad students were the experts, but for undergrad they can answer most questions. I'm a STEM guy....I don't think differential equations or basic chemistry changes so quickly that professors are revamping their syllabus every semester. When I was in school, we sat in lecture hall and took notes/copied what the professor was doing...then when home and figured it out before the test..Except for labs, that's really how every class I had was....sometimes the teacher was using a book he wrote, sometimes he wasn't

In this case, I don't see how I got any more value than if I was able to watch a youtube video....as often as I wanted to in case I missed something.

But, I also totally agree with Lefty that the lasting value is the diploma from the name school and the network you build there...

I think it was an administrator from Harvard, when asked if they were going to decrease tuition because classes were online...her response...NO..graduates will still have a degree from Harvard

Again--we just disagree on this.

 

[upstater]

They added a COVID component to the common application. The intent is so that these kids don’t write their main essay on COVID. They get to ramble on about the awfulness of it all and the admissions people can all ignore it instead of reading 50,000 essays on the same topic.

Haha, funny stuff.

I have a sick child, and she just laughs her butt off at all the ableist writing assignments she and her classmates are given. "Tell us what it feels like to be isolated in your own home because of Covid!" My daughter looks at these assignments with some amusement because that was her life anyway long before Covid, but she's in online groups where kids in her predicament don't take kindly to these assignments.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Haha, funny stuff.

I have a sick child, and she just laughs her butt off at all the ableist writing assignments she and her classmates are given. "Tell us what it feels like to be isolated in your own home because of Covid!" My daughter looks at these assignments with some amusement because that was her life anyway long before Covid, but she's in online groups where kids in her predicament don't take kindly to these assignments.

Oh I can only imagine her eye rolls at some of this. Hope she is ok.

In the webinar I saw with a guy from UConn and one from Pomona giving the public private take, they both answered the essay question the same way. It was added to the common app, address COVID there. Do not write your essay on how you handled COVID. They elaborated and said, everybody is dealing with COVID. Write something about you that is different and stands out.

 

[upstater]

Oh I can only imagine her eye rolls at some of this. Hope she is ok.

In the webinar I saw with a guy from UConn and one from Pomona giving the public private take, they both answered the essay question the same way. It was added to the common app, address COVID there. Do not write your essay on how you handled COVID. They elaborated and said, everybody is dealing with COVID. Write something about you that is different and stands out.

Interesting that the Covid question is essentially there for that.

 

[huskyrob1]

No, since applications will be sent out probably in October. She can take the SAT next month (hopefully) but won't have scores before she applies. All the schools are now test optional, but nobody including the admissions officers (saw a webinar with one from UConn) knows how they will determine who to admit. Most of them will be making it up as they go. Then add the deferrals from the 2020 HS class and you have a disaster.

Not sure what a vaccine does anyway. It doesn't stop you from getting the virus, it just makes you largely asymptomatic if you do...just like college kids already are.

No you're wrong, it does stop you from getting the virus as long as your acquired immunity lasts. Once immunity weakens is when you get individuals who can transmit the virus but still have no symptoms or very mild symptoms. The very definition of immunity is when your immune system fights off infection and disease. A healthy immune system has a number of ways to detect and destroy anything it recognizes as foreign to your body including bacteria, viruses, fungi, parasites or unhealthy cells such as cancer cells. In a virus, it prevents the virus from hijacking your bodies cells to make more of the invading pathogen. Thus you will not get sick and the chances of you infecting someone else is close to zero. A healthy immune system and being asymptomatic are two different things. Vaccines do work, it's the reason the Polio and Smallpox viruses were eradicated 50 or more years ago.

 

[upstater]

No you're wrong, it does stop you from getting the virus as long as your acquired immunity lasts. Once immunity weakens is when you get individuals who can transmit the virus but still have no symptoms or very mild symptoms. The very definition of immunity is when your immune system fights off infection and disease. A healthy immune system has a number of ways to detect and destroy anything it recognizes as foreign to your body including bacteria, viruses, fungi, parasites or unhealthy cells such as cancer cells. In a virus, it prevents the virus from hijacking your bodies cells to make more of the invading pathogen. Thus you will not get sick and the chances of you infecting someone else is close to zero. A healthy immune system and being asymptomatic are two different things. Vaccines do work, it's the reason the Polio and Smallpox viruses were eradicated 40 or more years ago.

Also, immunity from a vaccine is supposed to be much stronger than immunity from simply contracting Covid itself.

 

[HuskyHawk]

No you're wrong, it does stop you from getting the virus as long as your acquired immunity lasts. Once immunity weakens is when you get individuals who can transmit the virus but still have no symptoms or very mild symptoms. The very definition of immunity is when your immune system fights off infection and disease. A healthy immune system has a number of ways to detect and destroy anything it recognizes as foreign to your body including bacteria, viruses, fungi, parasites or unhealthy cells such as cancer cells. In a virus, it prevents the virus from hijacking your bodies cells to make more of the invading pathogen. Thus you will not get sick and the chances of you infecting someone else is close to zero. A healthy immune system and being asymptomatic are two different things. Vaccines do work, it's the reason the Polio and Smallpox viruses were eradicated 50 or more years ago.

I am not an anti vaxxer. There was no need for this rant. Polio has not been eradicated unfortunately. Smallpox is the only virus we’ve eradicated so far.

There has never been vaccine for any coronavirus. It is not clear how it will work. I think there is a very good chance that it will function more like a flu vaccine. Meaning it may not prevent infection but would reduce the severity of any resulting illness.

Vaccine Effectiveness: How Well Do Flu Vaccines Work? | CDC

Influenza vaccine effectiveness questions and answers - CDC

www.cdc.gov