OT: College Entrance Exam Cheating Scandal

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#26
I don't have any problem with the shoe company giving a bit to the players as they are generally the only ones not getting compensated fairly in a big time money making business (NCAA Mens basketball).
Of course. That is such a canard. Everyone involved in CBB gets paid. From the trainers, the coaches, the AD's to the talking heads on TV. Everyone except the players. Ludicrous. But that's a different conversation and a different thread.
 

DefenseBB

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#28
I don't have any problem with the shoe company giving a bit to the players as they are generally the only ones not getting compensated fairly in a big time money making business (NCAA Mens basketball).
Huh? The students are getting a free education! That seems to be lost on everyone who claims these students deserve a slice Of the pie. The free education is the bargain they agree to. Think about ANY company you work for, some products make lots of money and some products barely break even but the accountants in all divisions get paid the same. The NCAA is not a socialistic entity to reward students on contributions.
 

TheFarmFan

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#30
I'm a Stanford alum (undergrad) and Yale alum (grad - where I picked up my deep admiration for Geno and the Huskies) and this story has been blowing up in my inbox all day. Not that it really matters, but it was the Stanford sailing coach (not rowing), and the University fired him as soon as it learned. The Yale President emailed a few minutes ago saying that it was a former coach (his email didn't indicate this, but the news is reporting it's the former women's soccer coach who resigned in November).

Still processing what I think about this, but I do think admissions has gotten so cutthroat and competitive, and the admissions rates are so low (less than 5% of applicants get into Stanford), that this kind of corruption is bound to happen. In retrospect, given that elite high school athletes are often given admissions preferences, it should have been obvious to see a mile away that second-tier sports accomplishments can be relatively easy to fake and fairly hard to verify. These days elite basketball and football prospects are celebrities in their own right before they step foot on campus (see Fran Belibi's dunk videos), but how many people could name a single prominent high school sailor or rower?

I do believe the universities that this specific conspiracy was not widely known within the universities, but my larger interest is in how they do a better job of policing/verifying resume "accomplishments" going forward. I suppose they trusted their coaches to verify these accomplishments.

And I have always, always been skeptical of the "extra time for tests" accommodation. It just seems too easy to game. I teach at a top ten university and I've had students notify me that they need extra time for papers and exams and the university tells me it's essentially an ADA violation for me to refuse. I always wonder: what employer is going to hire you when you need twice as much time as every other applicant?

ETA: Stanford email indicates neither of the sailing "recruits" whose applications were "enhanced" by the terminated sailing coach actually ended up going to Stanford. Nevertheless, the coach pocketed the $270,000 donated to the sailing program...

ETA again: By far and away the most notable coaches indicted were U$C men's and women's water polo coach Jovan Vavic, who had won sixteen national championships as the coach of the two teams, and U$C's women's soccer coach, Ali Khosroshahin, who was fired in 2013, along with his former assistant coach. Khosroshahin's team won the national championship in 2007, his first year as coach.
 
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TheFarmFan

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#31
Huh? The students are getting a free education! That seems to be lost on everyone who claims these students deserve a slice Of the pie. The free education is the bargain they agree to. Think about ANY company you work for, some products make lots of money and some products barely break even but the accountants in all divisions get paid the same. The NCAA is not a socialistic entity to reward students on contributions.
Totally agree, Defense. The college athletes are getting an early lesson in Marxian economics: the surplus labor value always goes to the capitalist/university! ;)
 
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#32
This is about how the 1% manipulates the system to demonstrate that their wealth allows them to cut the line...any line.

In China, my old friend Chris Balding noted that no one pays attention to lines and everything is quite lawless.

This is a sophisticated version of that phenomenon.

As an aside, driving East on I-80 today, refueling in a truck stop near Joliet IL, wandered into a huge argument about a blocked parking space.

Luckily, it calmed down by itself, but I was perfectly prepared for one or both parties to pull out guns and have at it.

Great country we live in.
 

ochoopsfan

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#33
I am not surprised that one of the people involved in the fiasco at USC, is Donna Heinel. Good riddance with her and her BS hiring of Cynthia Cooper Dyke, and then not letting her go as players were out of hand and suspended or quit the team. What a waste of 4 years.
Lock her up!!
 

vtcwbuff

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#34
This is about how the 1% manipulates the system to demonstrate that their wealth allows them to cut the line...any line.

In China, my old friend Chris Balding noted that no one pays attention to lines and everything is quite lawless.

This is a sophisticated version of that phenomenon.

As an aside, driving East on I-80 today, refueling in a truck stop near Joliet IL, wandered into a huge argument about a blocked parking space.

Luckily, it calmed down by itself, but I was perfectly prepared for one or both parties to pull out guns and have at it.

Great country we live in.
Feel free to leave.
 

CocoHusky

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#35
I am not surprised that one of the people involved in the fiasco at USC, is Donna Heinel. Good riddance with her and her BS hiring of Cynthia Cooper Dyke, and then not letting her go as players were out of hand and suspended or quit the team. What a waste of 4 years.
Lock her up!!
Can some of our west coast fans please enlighten me. Is USC that hard of a school to get into compared to some of the other schools involved in this scandal?
 
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#36
A truly disgusting story with the real victims being the honest, hard working students who were denied admission.
A Yale women’s soccer coach did take a bribe but I don’t believe anyone is implying there was institution wide fraud at Yale or other schools involved in this scandal.
Winlots - your comment implies some wrongdoing by Yale in the past. What are you referring to?
I think the even bigger victims are the under qualified offspring of the wealthy parents in question. Imagine how humiliating it must be for them to discover just how many strings their parents pulled to get them admitted to schools they otherwise had no chance of attending. Even if the kids were in on the ruse, they’re 18 year-olds and have probably been subjected to years of pressure to excel. It reminds me, even more powerfully, that the young ladies who play basketball for UConn, and every other Division I school, are equally young and (perhaps) equally impressionable. Talented, yes, but YOUNG! As for the offspring of Lori Loughlin, Felicity Huffman, et al., I hope they can move on from this very public mortification.
 

RockyMTblue2

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#37
As for the offspring of Lori Loughlin, Felicity Huffman, et al., I hope they can move on from this very public mortification.
Many, including Loughlin's kids, actively participated in the farces i n the indictments and complaints. Your knee jerk reaction is so typical. Read before you decide to become indignant crusader.
 
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#39
Many, including Loughlin's kids, actively participated in the farces i n the indictments and complaints. Your knee jerk reaction is so typical. Read before you decide to become indignant crusader.
Thanks for the hostility, with a side helping of condescension. You also missed my point. These are kids we’re talking about, and whether or not they actively participated in the farce, you and I have no idea what sort of pressure they were under. There aren’t many kids out there who can take that kind of stand against their parents, particularly when the parents in question are rich, manipulative and extremely ambitious, as well as amoral. But hey, maybe you’re better than the rest of us.
 

RockyMTblue2

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#40
Thanks for the hostility, with a side helping of condescension. You also missed my point. These are kids we’re talking about, and whether or not they actively participated in the farce, you and I have no idea what sort of pressure they were under. There aren’t many kids out there who can take that kind of stand against their parents, particularly when the parents in question are rich, manipulative and extremely ambitious, as well as amoral. But hey, maybe you’re better than the rest of us.
Obviously, you still need what you got. And yes, to your last point, many have to get a grip on what is real. I did not miss your speculative point at all. There are consequences for participating in fraud, whether you knuckled under to your paents or were delighted to have them buy you a spot that should have gone to someone else. I do know I'm thinking straight. You can try ridicule. I'll take facts.
 

TheFarmFan

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#41
Can some of our west coast fans please enlighten me. Is USC that hard of a school to get into compared to some of the other schools involved in this scandal?
USC admitted 13% of the 64k+ students who applied last year, so I suppose it's "hard" in the sense that it's statistically unlikely. Stanford's admissions rate was about 4.5% (and from a presumably more competitive pool), but in a sense any applicant's odds are pretty low at both schools.
 
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#42
Huh? The students are getting a free education! That seems to be lost on everyone who claims these students deserve a slice Of the pie. The free education is the bargain they agree to. Think about ANY company you work for, some products make lots of money and some products barely break even but the accountants in all divisions get paid the same. The NCAA is not a socialistic entity to reward students on contributions.
Exactly, therefore they should be able to take their talents to the highest bidder for as much as they can get!
 

CompSci87

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#43
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Bama fan

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#46
I think the even bigger victims are the under qualified offspring of the wealthy parents in question. Imagine how humiliating it must be for them to discover just how many strings their parents pulled to get them admitted to schools they otherwise had no chance of attending. Even if the kids were in on the ruse, they’re 18 year-olds and have probably been subjected to years of pressure to excel. It reminds me, even more powerfully, that the young ladies who play basketball for UConn, and every other Division I school, are equally young and (perhaps) equally impressionable. Talented, yes, but YOUNG! As for the offspring of Lori Loughlin, Felicity Huffman, et al., I hope they can move on from this very public mortification.
I find it very hard to feel sorry for the "children' of these wealthy and entitled people. These kids have had a sweet life, probably always getting more than they "deserved'. And while they are young adults, they are adults. You would have to know that you never played a sport before you got an acceptance letter for a athletic scholarship. Their parents may well have done them a disservice by this constant interference in their lives, but the kids have certainly reaped benefit from it. Privileged people always think they have earned their status, while underprivileged kids are taught that they deserve their lot in life because they are somehow responsible for their lack of advantage and opportunity. This apologist twist reminds me of the kid in Texas who killed four innocent people in a drunken, drugged accident wherein the judge declared him to be not guilty because he suffered from affluenza. I hope this post was written in facetious jest and I was just too unwitting to comprehend the joke. I wish no ill on anyone, but those who court ill gotten gain must surely reap their just deserts. And this goes fro the students and their parents alike. :confused:
 

ochoopsfan

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#47
Just curious, how does one qualify for a "Sailing Scholarship" at Stanford or for any school that has a college program. Looking at the rosters on the Stanford site, nearly every student went to a private school during HS(A few went to public highs in Newport Harbor and Costa Mesa areas of OC)
By the way if any of you New Englanders care, the Finals for sailing are around Memorial Day weekend in Newport RI. Does the Tree make the trip to RI?
 

TheFarmFan

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#48
Just curious, how does one qualify for a "Sailing Scholarship" at Stanford or for any school that has a college program. Looking at the rosters on the Stanford site, nearly every student went to a private school during HS(A few went to public highs in Newport Harbor and Costa Mesa areas of OC)
By the way if any of you New Englanders care, the Finals for sailing are around Memorial Day weekend in Newport RI. Does the Tree make the trip to RI?
This is the trick - they aren't trying to qualify for an athletic scholarship, and they wouldn't have. According to the U$C sailing team's website, the College Sailing rules don't permit schools to give out athletics scholarships. So those recruits were not being recruited for a scholarship, just for a place on the team. So when the coach communicated with the admissions office, he was effectively saying, "yeah, I can attest that this applicant is legit at sailing, and see, we're recruiting them, so you should give them extra bonus points for being a top sailor." This is really no different than the way the admissions office gives extra bonus points if you played the Violin at Carnegie Hall as a junior in high school. It's just that it's so hard to verify the resume credentials of 60,000 applicants that the athletic coaches serve as important conduits to verify whose athletic accomplishments actually merit special notice.

In terms of the scam in question, the trick is that once you're admitted, the university can't require you to follow through on your stated intention to play the sport. All they can do is take you athletic scholarship away from you if you quit or never join the team in the first place. But, oh yeah, these rich kids don't care, cause they never had any intention of qualifying for one, and Sailing doesn't offer them, and all they wanted was the large envelope. This is one of the reasons why people argue that some of these more tony sports are backdoors to allow rich kids to "qualify" for elite schools by "excelling" at sports that are so expensive/hard to access that few people can ever get good at them. It's something of a racket.

OTOH, when those sports dole out Olympic medals and world championships, it's hard to argue against colleges wanting to field teams. Most of the US water polo team gets trained as college students at one of Cal, Stanford, UCLA or USC. Almost all of our top swimmers either attend swimming universities as scholarship players or else go pro but still train with them (for example, this is what Katie Ledecky did - she stayed amateur for her freshman and sophomore years, and has now gone pro to prep for the 2020 olympics while continuing to train with her former college teammates at Stanford).
 

jonson

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#49
USC admitted 13% of the 64k+ students who applied last year, so I suppose it's "hard" in the sense that it's statistically unlikely. Stanford's admissions rate was about 4.5% (and from a presumably more competitive pool), but in a sense any applicant's odds are pretty low at both schools.
I imagine that this has always been the case at Stanford (but not USC, which has made a concerted effort since the 90s at least to boost its academic image, providing scholarships based solely on "merit"--e.g. SAT scores, and so on). However, 64K is a low bar these days regarding family income and the real scandal imo is the way in which entrance to college (or the best colleges, anyway) has become increasingly linked to wealth--and a great deal of it. (I probably should add that a daughter of mine attended Penn and another studied music at USC--both during the 90s.)

According to the 2017 article I linked above, at both Yale and Princeton students in the incoming freshman class whose family income ranked in the top 1% nationally outnumbered all other entering students. And at Harvard, 40% of the entering freshmen were "legacies." Maybe all of these students were deserving and belonged in the very select group of applicants who were admitted, but it's difficult to believe that there weren't many other equally (or more) deserving applicants whose families were considerably less wealthy and/or hadn't had a member who attended the institution previously. I don't see how this can be good news no matter how it's explained, and I frankly don't think it's going to get better.
 
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wbball novice

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#50
Huh? The students are getting a free education! That seems to be lost on everyone who claims these students deserve a slice Of the pie. The free education is the bargain they agree to. Think about ANY company you work for, some products make lots of money and some products barely break even but the accountants in all divisions get paid the same. The NCAA is not a socialistic entity to reward students on contributions.
As VCTW's comparison shows, you get what you pay for with a free college education. Couldn't they get at least apprentice pay?
 
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