College Degree in Sports?

[bags27]

A terrifically provocative article in the New York Times Op-Ed that recognizes the realities. I don't believe the argument below, which is supposed to be the clincher, is completely that: for example, few acting in a Shakespearean play fail to understand the historical and literary context of Shakespeare. But athletes don't need to historicize their craft at all: they just need to play it. But I also recognize the reality: that many (most?) of the best of our D-1 athletes have to make such enormous time commitments that in fact most of their important mental work does happen in athletics rather than in the classroom. So, why not recognize it? In particular, giving class credit for sports practice and performance might make those actions "more intellectual," as the author suggests.

Universities routinely give degrees in the performing arts, such as music, dance and theater, as Professor Shughart pointed out. In these programs performances are often given to audiences paying for the privilege of seeing exceptional talent on display.

Beyond our cultural biases, what really is the difference between a Shakespeare play, an orchestra concert and a basketball game? Each performance requires some high-level combination of physical ability and mental acuity, developed through years of training and study, and for which only a select few reach elite levels.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/14/opinion/14pielke.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0

 

[Ozimoto]

Interesting concept. I had an instructor in college who felt that the idea of a "student athlete" at a Division 1 school was absurd as a result of the time commitments and this was in 1980.

 

[BroadwayVa]

A terrifically provocative article in the New York Times Op-Ed that recognizes the realities. I don't believe the argument below, which is supposed to be the clincher, is completely that: for example, few acting in a Shakespearean play fail to understand the historical and literary context of Shakespeare. But athletes don't need to historicize their craft at all: they just need to play it. But I also recognize the reality: that many (most?) of the best of our D-1 athletes have to make such enormous time commitments that in fact most of their important mental work does happen in athletics rather than in the classroom. So, why not recognize it? In particular, giving class credit for sports practice and performance might make those actions "more intellectual," as the author suggests.

Universities routinely give degrees in the performing arts, such as music, dance and theater, as Professor Shughart pointed out. In these programs performances are often given to audiences paying for the privilege of seeing exceptional talent on display.

Beyond our cultural biases, what really is the difference between a Shakespeare play, an orchestra concert and a basketball game? Each performance requires some high-level combination of physical ability and mental acuity, developed through years of training and study, and for which only a select few reach elite levels.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/14/opinion/14pielke.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0

There are problems associated with playing for a degree---the time given by top players to their sports in college is extraordinary and some how they should be rewared. There are degrees and courses that are closely associated with the sports players. The real question to be asked is"
Will the degree awarded and the education to obtain that degree allow the "unprofessional", older, disabled player to work beyond playing the sport. What does the degree prepare them for, and is there opportunities for large number in that profession.. Everyone cannot be a coach or an AD or sports announcer or color commentary. I don't think nursing is the answer either.

 

[UcMiami]

The time commitment by actors, dancers, musicians, and visual artists is actually quite similar to that of athletes, and they are all required to complete academic course works as well as their performance/artistic work and very few if any of them receive free-ride scholarships or the whole rest of the support staff and academic help afforded to athletes.

And yes there are academic 'sports degrees' and many athletes major in 'physical education' of some sort. And unlike their artistic brethren many of those 'academic' courses are designed specifically to get athletes through without having to do any real work outside of class time (which can be fudged.)

I know there is a ton of money floating around the money college sports, and some individuals are getting rich, but for most college athletes on scholarship they are following the same kind of dream that the artistic students are following, with the same likely financial rewards - low pay and lack of success until they find some other profession. And the scholarship athletes do get a cushioned (and free) ride in pursuing their dream, and a higher percentage of them actually succeed and get paid really well for their success than the painters, actors, musicians, and dancers. And probably about the same percentage of both athletes and artists end up in the ancillary fields of their dream - teaching/coaching in HS, working as trainers in gyms/studios, etc.

 

[BroadwayVa]

For the most part I agree with much of what you wrote!!!
The profession of Acting or dancing can be extremely physically demanding--many athletes could not last long in those jobs. But but except for a play or two per year in doll3t3 hey don't have the 7/8 month's of daily demands the UConn WBB players have
This is not about you --it's about ME--I have my neck hairs stand up straight when I hear or read--Scholarship players get a FREE RIDE--at 18 I was in the military and never worked , except for a few days here and there, as hard as Uconn WW players work on a 4 or 5 days per week every week--how free is that? And then I got a "FREE RIDE" in college. The cushion you speak of --is tutors and assistance other student don't get (usually) that is because these kids are on planes busses, practicing at 6 am until classes begin, practicing late, --so they have to squeeze in studing.

I know you knew all that--and I was caught up in TWO words--free ride. Yep I'm nit picking, my major complaint. I wasn't telling you anything you didnt know--and I apologize if I came out stronger than necessary. I consider your one of the good guys.

Every thing you write I learn something--I appreciate that..

 

[BroadwayVa]

Interesting concept. I had an instructor in college who felt that the idea of a "student athlete" at a Division 1 school was absurd as a result of the time commitments and this was in 1980.

I had a Calculus Professor who actually believed that subject , and subsets, should each be an NCAA event/championship. Odd thing is i agreed.

 

[UcMiami]

For the most part I agree with much of what you wrote!!!
The profession of Acting or dancing can be extremely physically demanding--many athletes could not last long in those jobs. But but except for a play or two per year in doll3t3 hey don't have the 7/8 month's of daily demands the UConn WBB players have
This is not about you --it's about ME--I have my neck hairs stand up straight when I hear or read--Scholarship players get a FREE RIDE--at 18 I was in the military and never worked , except for a few days here and there, as hard as Uconn WW players work on a 4 or 5 days per week every week--how free is that? And then I got a "FREE RIDE" in college. The cushion you speak of --is tutors and assistance other student don't get (usually) that is because these kids are on planes busses, practicing at 6 am until classes begin, practicing late, --so they have to squeeze in studing.

I know you knew all that--and I was caught up in TWO words--free ride. Yep I'm nit picking, my major complaint. I wasn't telling you anything you didnt know--and I apologize if I came out stronger than necessary. I consider your one of the good guys.

Every thing you write I learn something--I appreciate that..

Cool! I accept the 'free ride' criticism, but there is a difference between going deeply in debt and having you education/room/and board paid in full and the tools of your trade given to you.
But a few plays, dance recitals, concerts is an understatement of the time involved - I actually did theater as a major in college, and between working on tech backstage for every production I was not in, and for most of the dance performances, as well as the rehearsals for every class project, the time I was devoting outside of class hours could well approximate that of athletes, and my friends who were visual artists spent even longer hours in the studio, those who were musicians were spending crazy hours practicing and the dancers were often choreographing their own pieces while rehearsing three or four other pieces for their fellow dancers/choreographers. And the people I knew in college who had the least free time were not athletes or artists but those pursuing engineering degrees.

Aside:
One of the questions I have re stipends - what about the walk-ons? They are putting in the same hours and effort as the scholarship athletes, and football specifically depends on their warm bodies. Seems unfair if the scholarship athletes are getting walking around money, the non-scholarship athletes should be too?

 

[JordyG]

The time commitment by actors, dancers, musicians, and visual artists is actually quite similar to that of athletes, and they are all required to complete academic course works as well as their performance/artistic work and very few if any of them receive free-ride scholarships or the whole rest of the support staff and academic help afforded to athletes.

And yes there are academic 'sports degrees' and many athletes major in 'physical education' of some sort. And unlike their artistic brethren many of those 'academic' courses are designed specifically to get athletes through without having to do any real work outside of class time (which can be fudged.)

I know there is a ton of money floating around the money college sports, and some individuals are getting rich, but for most college athletes on scholarship they are following the same kind of dream that the artistic students are following, with the same likely financial rewards - low pay and lack of success until they find some other profession. And the scholarship athletes do get a cushioned (and free) ride in pursuing their dream, and a higher percentage of them actually succeed and get paid really well for their success than the painters, actors, musicians, and dancers. And probably about the same percentage of both athletes and artists end up in the ancillary fields of their dream - teaching/coaching in HS, working as trainers in gyms/studios, etc.

Agreed. However one difference between athletes and those in the creative arts is the length of their careers. Athletes, even when successful have painfully (all pun intended) short careers. Whereas aside from dancers, success in the creative arts can continue well into their 80's, 90's and even 100's. In fact, many in the creative arts don't achieve any success at all until late in life. Not possible for athletes. The amount of time put in early, the education they've received, and the experience they've accrued end up being beneficial to their art as their career lengthens. Not so for athletes. Except of course as a teacher, which is true for both. Ultimately a prospective "degree" in sports would do nothing for the long term prospectus for an athlete or ex-athlete, except perhaps as a talking point, covering a hole in a wall, or a door stop.

 

[JordyG]

I had a Calculus Professor who actually believed that subject , and subsets, should each be an NCAA event/championship. Odd thing is i agreed.

Still? Seems absurd. It seems a result of modern times where every gets a ribbon for competing while devaluing skill and achieevment.

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

Interesting concept. I had an instructor in college who felt that the idea of a "student athlete" at a Division 1 school was absurd as a result of the time commitments and this was in 1980.

He/she was/is wrong. Many DI athletes are fine students in established majors.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Still? Seems absurd. It seems a result of modern times where every gets a ribbon for competing while devaluing skill and achieevment.

I was a student, like all ignorant and trusting, of course it was absurd ! The NCAA, by definition is for Athletes !!
But it sounded great to a student. However, Calculus tournaments still does not appear to me to be out of the question.

. I too dislike the "there are no failures" type of competition> If we are a tiny bit smart we learn a lot from failures.

 

[OldAlum]

Many students do sort of major in athletics. Moriah and Stewie each had sports related majors. The only thing that may be lacking is actual college credits for the time in their sport.
I think athletes generally have a choice of taking an unrelated major that they want to pursue, or taking a sports-related major, or one of the majors advisors can point out as easier to manage (like no term papers!) or the increasingly popular "individualized major".
Probably the distribution requirements for those basic courses would be the most difficult for those athletes who are not academically inclined.

 

[UcMiami]

In some of the UNC academic fraud reporting there was stuff about athletes at football factories getting degrees in 'generalized studies' and potential employers seeing that as an obvious red flag. I suspect some of the 'individualized major' degrees may be organized in the same way - aiming at getting students through academic requirements without having to take hard courses in any specific major field.

 

[JordyG]

I was a student, like all ignorant and trusting, of course it was absurd ! The NCAA, by definition is for Athletes !!
But it sounded great to a student. However, Calculus tournaments still does not appear to me to be out of the question.

. I too dislike the "there are no failures" type of competition> If we are a tiny bit smart we learn a lot from failures.

Dead right. Of course, if we are a tiny bit humble we admit to and grow from them. However, now that I think about it, a mathematics competition leading to an Ramanujan Award wouldn't hurt this country at all.

 

[UcMiami]

Still? Seems absurd. It seems a result of modern times where every gets a ribbon for competing while devaluing skill and achieevment.

Well, when sports channels routinely carry poker tournaments as sporting events ....
And they do say that grand master chess championships burn as many calories as football games.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Dead right. Of course, if we are a tiny bit humble we admit to and grow from them. However, now that I think about it, a mathematics competition leading to an Ramanujan Award wouldn't hurt this country at all.

On the OT subject of Math. NY's educational system has produced some very good math people. Also, many write about the inability of Women in the fields of math--Baloney--My wife, NY Educated (regents and all) taught me enough to get into college, I have 2 daughters (one in MIT the other in US Cal in Computer science) and the leaders in most of my math classes were women--either I have known the exceptions (which I doubt or it a myth) The chief Engineer who constructed the optics for the space telescope was a woman. The country would definitely be better off as a country (against the world) with a Math tournament ..

 

[BroadwayVa]

Well, when sports channels routinely carry poker tournaments as sporting events ....
And they do say that grand master chess championships burn as many calories as football games.

Chess is a game of logic, psychology, positional analysis-- poker take a brain that holds numbers well, and psychology. I suppose if there is GAME in the title someone must think it falls into the same category as a basketball GAME! ???????

 

[Kibitzer]

If we are determined to cheapen degrees by means of faux competitions, let's elevate spelling bees to the college level.

Or, instead of providing instruction in Geopolitics, revive "Where In the World Is Carmen San Diego?"

 

[BroadwayVa]

Cool! I accept the 'free ride' criticism, but there is a difference between going deeply in debt and having you education/room/and board paid in full and the tools of your trade given to you.
But a few plays, dance recitals, concerts is an understatement of the time involved - I actually did theater as a major in college, and between working on tech backstage for every production I was not in, and for most of the dance performances, as well as the rehearsals for every class project, the time I was devoting outside of class hours could well approximate that of athletes, and my friends who were visual artists spent even longer hours in the studio, those who were musicians were spending crazy hours practicing and the dancers were often choreographing their own pieces while rehearsing three or four other pieces for their fellow dancers/choreographers. And the people I knew in college who had the least free time were not athletes or artists but those pursuing engineering degrees.

Aside:
One of the questions I have re stipends - what about the walk-ons? They are putting in the same hours and effort as the scholarship athletes, and football specifically depends on their warm bodies. Seems unfair if the scholarship athletes are getting walking around money, the non-scholarship athletes should be too?

No sir it was not Criticism ---I was speaking about a word that bothers ME--you are fully entitled to use any word you want without me nitpicking--if that was what you thought of my posting--I apologize.

I accept everything you say--with a bit of difference--and to confess I didn't think of the Theater group as not having scholarships--I'm sure some do--maybe not to the extent of the players--I don't know. My kids got them at some pretty high priced schools and worked too,also-at one school in particular, they had as much assistance as Uconn WBB players get for academics.

However---..... Many in the Theater group have parents paying for school, as did the walk-ons, who WANTED badly to play with this team if only in practice--that was their payment--to get to play with the big guys.

Professional dancers are among those who physically work as hard or harder than WBB players--but then too many Cheerleading teams do to-.

But for years including today--loads of kids go to" broadway" and sweep floors, clean out toilets, and do the shleping for the "star" to learn their profession from the bottom up. I read bios of many of the current and past top and character actors --
I am always amazed that some of those I thought did it the hard way went to Cornel, Harvard, etc and those who I thought had the golden spoon--worked from childhood to get there.

I'm a fan, huge fan of Character actors--they worked often at good but not highly billed parts. I also love ballet dancers--they start young and work terribly hard--and usually learn their profession starting at age 6 or less. (my wife was an wanna be )

Again--I appreciate your comment..

 

[UcMiami]

On the OT subject of Math. NY's educational system has produced some very good math people. Also, many write about the inability of Women in the fields of math--Baloney--My wife, NY Educated (regents and all) taught me enough to get into college, I have 2 daughters (one in MIT the other in US Cal in Computer science) and the leaders in most of my math classes were women--either I have known the exceptions (which I doubt or it a myth) The chief Engineer who constructed the optics for the space telescope was a woman. The country would definitely be better off as a country (against the world) with a Math tournament ..

There is a difference between being fundamentally sound in a subject and being a genius - at the edge of theoretical math it has been dominated by very young men, perhaps more so than any other field. Historically that has been largely a result of education opportunity for women, but it still appears to be holding. And i say young men because very few mathematicians have made significant new contributions beyond their mid thirties and mostly beyond their twenties.

 

[UcMiami]

No sir it was not Criticism ---I was speaking about a word that bothers ME--you are fully entitled to use any word you want without me nitpicking--if that was what you thought of my posting--I apologize.

I accept everything you say--with a bit of difference--and to confess I didn't think of the Theater group as not having scholarships--I'm sure some do--maybe not to the extent of the players--I don't know. My kids got them at some pretty high priced schools and worked too,also-at one school in particular, they had as much assistance as Uconn WBB players get for academics.

However---..... Many in the Theater group have parents paying for school, as did the walk-ons, who WANTED badly to play with this team if only in practice--that was their payment--to get to play with the big guys.

Professional dancers are among those who physically work as hard or harder than WBB players--but then too many Cheerleading teams do to-.

But for years including today--loads of kids go to" broadway" and sweep floors, clean out toilets, and do the shleping for the "star" to learn their profession from the bottom up. I read bios of many of the current and past top and character actors --
I am always amazed that some of those I thought did it the hard way went to Cornel, Harvard, etc and those who I thought had the golden spoon--worked from childhood to get there.

I'm a fan, huge fan of Character actors--they worked often at good but not highly billed parts. I also love ballet dancers--they start young and work terribly hard--and usually learn their profession starting at age 6 or less. (my wife was an wanna be )

Again--I appreciate your comment..

We are cool! I didn't take your concern about 'free ride' as anything more than correctly pointing to the additional commitment scholarship athletes are expected to make.

On the non-athletic scholarships, few of them are 100% grant money - most include a mixture of 'free money' with a heavy dose of loans and student work jobs. And the student jobs can run to the same kind of time commitment expected of athletes, while the loans can be a mill-stone around a college grad for years and decades.

 

[BroadwayVa]

There is a difference between being fundamentally sound in a subject and being a genius - at the edge of theoretical math it has been dominated by very young men, perhaps more so than any other field. Historically that has been largely a result of education opportunity for women, but it still appears to be holding. And i say young men because very few mathematicians have made significant new contributions beyond their mid thirties and mostly beyond their twenties.

Let me again apologize for making you thing I criticized you over the Free Ride comment. You are right about Genius--theoretical math isn't for those above 35--the rest of us --inspiration is associated with perspiration

I graduated HS--mom pushed to college --I took some math subjects, which I liked--money at home was an issue--I dropped out and joined the military - my wife gave-higher level math and got me into an engineering school--GIBill and a working wife and Uncle Sam for more schooling and I did ok---My sister and a couple of my kids are intelligent--me, I'm a plodder-work to get things done.
You are correct in Mathematical breakthroughs are done by most before age 35. However in technical, engineering, and computer breakthroughs I'd say most of those came from men and women beyond age 60/

Theortical math is a young persons game--takes lots of brain cells. I had student labor Female Electrical Engineer major with a 4.0 plus GPA and was into her last semester--I would have paid a million to be her the world was her's. Her ONLY boyfriend got her hooked on drugz--her education end--this was at Uconn.

 

[BroadwayVa]

We are cool! I didn't take your concern about 'free ride' as anything more than correctly pointing to the additional commitment scholarship athletes are expected to make.

On the non-athletic scholarships, few of them are 100% grant money - most include a mixture of 'free money' with a heavy dose of loans and student work jobs. And the student jobs can run to the same kind of time commitment expected of athletes, while the loans can be a mill-stone around a college grad for years and decades.

Thanks... I appreciate --you being cool--

 

[JordyG]

Well, when sports channels routinely carry poker tournaments as sporting events ....
And they do say that grand master chess championships burn as many calories as football games.

Some would see the machinations of "The Bachelor" as sport, or at least sporting. Indeed the networks will tab anything as sport as long as it generates an audience. I would however love to know who "they" are who have measured the calorie burn of a chess match and a football player and clinically evaluated them as equivalent.

 

[JordyG]

Chess is a game of logic, psychology, positional analysis-- poker take a brain that holds numbers well, and psychology. I suppose if there is GAME in the title someone must think it falls into the same category as a basketball GAME! ???????

As I said about the Ramanujan Award.