Colin Cowherd and Jason Whitlock

[Padutch5]

Good grief. I never said the system was racist or classist at least intentionally. It's basically systemic myopia.

The system is inefficient. And it has evolved to support a certain constituency. Does AAU basketball cost inner city families $2000 a season to play? I don't think so.

Secondly, if there was a wealth of college football and basketball talent residing in large immigrant communities around the US do you think that colleges would overlook that talent pool because they didn't play in typical suburban youth academy setups? If you don't think there are large swaths of eligible talent that get overlooked by US Soccer and MLS then you simply don't understand what is happening, or not happening.

I mean, MLS didn't even bother trying to sign Zelalem, or even Pulisic. Liga MX Clubs sign Americans every year that MLS and US Soccer don't even know about. Clubs that don't even play in America do a better job scouting in this country than our own league and Federation.

I'll go ahead and wait for your answer.

Somewhere I think I lost the point you are trying to make. This topic is actually the topic of a lot of studies. Let me try some points:
Yes I think there are large swaths of fallen overlooked by US Soccer----and football and basketball and baseball. That is not unique to soccer.
Yes I think AAU basketball costs well in excess of $2000 per player. Their travel is generally far in excess of that of soccer. It is paid from many sources both above and under the table.
If you can figure out why soccer isn't big in the inner city maybe you can help The experts figure out why baseball is dying in the same places. The real pipeline today is either from suburbia, the Carribean orJapan. By the way, for whatever the reason baseball is in deep trouble in the rich suburbs around the country. The numbers of teams certainly in the Hartford suburbs is down significantly while soccer and lacrosse are up. Bottom line-there is a whole lt more than economics or class at play.

 

[Padutch5]

Go to a High School where Football, Baseball and Basketball aren't where the action is. You don't find many. So all of the athletes are there.

I love soccer and have totally disengaged from Pro Sports except soccer. Not many others my age have. My son in his 30's watches almost all soccer and not much Pro Sports. We will arrive when star-athlete kids who are now 6 have been doing nothing but playing soccer.

It's happening with Soccer and Hockey slowly but surely. They may become the mainstream in 20 years.

Wow. I have to disagree as to where the action is. Not sure where you live or how old your kids are. Football and baseball are struggling at the youth and high school levels. Ask your park district how many youths are playing youth football and baseball vs soccer. At least in the towns I'm familiar with here and in Illinois, youth baseball and football are struggling while soccer [and lacrosse] is thriving. Yes, there will always be some who switch sports as time goes by but the opposition of parents to their sons playing football and baseball is something I never expected to see--Football because of the injury factor and baseball because of the boredom factor.

 

[ZooCougar]

as for poor kids playing soccer, they have also been given a football or mainly basketball as a way to better themselves... it's slowly starting to gain traction with the poorer regions of the country. I believe the costs will come down when this soccer explosion "bubble" pops. not many kids can play soccer on dirt roads without shoes... they play basketball on the pavement and there arent many areas for inner city kids to play soccer without paying to go somewhere

Sigh. They are already playing soccer. And I'm not talking about just the inner cities. I'm talking about the big immigrant communities.

 

[ZooCougar]

Compare US Soccer to any other sport played in any other country. Youth Soccer in the US is very technical. Dribbling between cones, make sure to use the front instep when striking, avoid banana kicks. Don't head the ball unless absolutely necessary.

In other countries, soccer is instinctual. Players are more creative on the whole because they are rarely coached.

In that vain it is similar to basketball played in this country. There are no coaches on the playgrounds of New York City, but there is plenty of "flashy" passes and dunks meant to avoid defenders. Similar to US Soccer, there are plenty of international basketball players making the safe lay up move or the text book chest pass which often times is stolen by LeBron James and flushed at the other end of the court for 2 points.

The other thing is that soccer is the sole passion in many other countries and their stars are national heroes, and this includes other 1st world countries like France and Germany. Kids look up to them and, with education being so poor in many of the great soccer playing countries, see soccer as their only way up and out. For the exceptional athlete in North America, they have more choices to which to devote their time and seeing as the North American soccer player is a relative pauper to their baseball/basketball/football/hockey brethren, chances are they would reach for the shinier ring, if given the opportunity.

This is a great post. The truth is that many of the best players got that way because of all of the "unstructured" time they spent playing in their neighborhoods, often with kids much older than them.

 

[ZooCougar]

Compare US Soccer to any other sport played in any other country. Youth Soccer in the US is very technical. Dribbling between cones, make sure to use the front instep when striking, avoid banana kicks. Don't head the ball unless absolutely necessary.

In other countries, soccer is instinctual. Players are more creative on the whole because they are rarely coached.

In that vain it is similar to basketball played in this country. There are no coaches on the playgrounds of New York City, but there is plenty of "flashy" passes and dunks meant to avoid defenders. Similar to US Soccer, there are plenty of international basketball players making the safe lay up move or the text book chest pass which often times is stolen by LeBron James and flushed at the other end of the court for 2 points.

The other thing is that soccer is the sole passion in many other countries and their stars are national heroes, and this includes other 1st world countries like France and Germany. Kids look up to them and, with education being so poor in many of the great soccer playing countries, see soccer as their only way up and out. For the exceptional athlete in North America, they have more choices to which to devote their time and seeing as the North American soccer player is a relative pauper to their baseball/basketball/football/hockey brethren, chances are they would reach for the shinier ring, if given the opportunity.

This is a great post. The truth is that many of the best players got that way because of all of the "unstructured" time they spent playing in their neighborhoods, often with kids much older than them.

 

[ZooCougar]

Somewhere I think I lost the point you are trying to make. This topic is actually the topic of a lot of studies. Let me try some points:
Yes I think there are large swaths of fallen overlooked by US Soccer----and football and basketball and baseball. That is not unique to soccer.
Yes I think AAU basketball costs well in excess of $2000 per player. Their travel is generally far in excess of that of soccer. It is paid from many sources both above and under the table.
If you can figure out why soccer isn't big in the inner city maybe you can help The experts figure out why baseball is dying in the same places. The real pipeline today is either from suburbia, the Carribean orJapan. By the way, for whatever the reason baseball is in deep trouble in the rich suburbs around the country. The numbers of teams certainly in the Hartford suburbs is down significantly while soccer and lacrosse are up. Bottom line-there is a whole lt more than economics or class at play.

Households are not paying $2000 a kid to play AAU basketball if someone else is picking up the tab.

And we're not just talking about the inner city here.

A few organizations are beginning to realize all of these untapped communities. The team I follow, Sporting KC is sponsoring a new developmental Academy and PDL team all the way out in Garden City, Kansas. It's actually a smart move, because there has been huge Hispanic community there since the 1960s and there is a ton of talent there.

None of it will be "pay to play".


Sporting KC hopes to build youth academy training center in Garden City with STAR Bonds

New Frontier: Sporting KC look west to Garden City in search for next generation of MLS-ready talent

"Sporting's development system will get a shot of street-game toughness and creativity in an American game in which white, suburban and affluent players have long been over-represented. In return, Garden City gets all the benefits of a major construction project – and one that will anchor further development – while becoming a hub for player development within an MLS club’s academy system, something few if any other small towns can boast."

“If you look around the world and you look over the history of soccer, the best players came off the streets,” Vermes said. “That's kind of going away in our society, just because of many things that we could talk about. But to still have the opportunities for those kids who go out and have pickup games – or you may want to, but you don't have the space or the environment, and now they do. These things are all part of the master plan that we're thinking about.”

 

[Excalibur]

Somewhere I think I lost the point you are trying to make. This topic is actually the topic of a lot of studies. Let me try some points:
Yes I think there are large swaths of fallen overlooked by US Soccer----and football and basketball and baseball. That is not unique to soccer.
Yes I think AAU basketball costs well in excess of $2000 per player. Their travel is generally far in excess of that of soccer. It is paid from many sources both above and under the table.
If you can figure out why soccer isn't big in the inner city maybe you can help The experts figure out why baseball is dying in the same places. The real pipeline today is either from suburbia, the Carribean orJapan. By the way, for whatever the reason baseball is in deep trouble in the rich suburbs around the country. The numbers of teams certainly in the Hartford suburbs is down significantly while soccer and lacrosse are up. Bottom line-there is a whole lt more than economics or class at play.

You answered your own question on basketball -- the families are rarely paying the cost directly. Someone else picks up the tab.

Interest in baseball is waning nationwide, but even more so in places where the population is poor. Many of the best players are coming from places (the Caribbean, Japan, Latin America) where the poorer segments of the population have access to play.

 

[Waquoit]

It's not just being athletic Rich. It's being athletic and being technically skilled.

And to be technically skilled, you need to practice. Not just play games, practice. Who was a better athlete than Iverson? And we know how he felt about practice.

 

[johnhuskies95]

Nailed it. It's not surprising that the mainstream guys get it. It's because they aren't stakeholders in the US soccer establishment.

Speak For Yourself (@SFY) | Twitter

In America we've taken something that should be inexpensive and uncomplicated and made it expensive and complicated.

MLS Academies are still by and large a pay to play proposition, where success is measured in the number of kids who get college scholarships. Only in America does soccer have 22 year "rookies".

Go to any major city or suburb in America. Youth soccer is a sport dominated by privileged families who can afford to travel to expensive away tournaments.

And lastly, why do we never see the MLS based US Soccer media ever criticize our players? They are treated with kid gloves. When a player fails to perform it's always because of the choice of formation or being played "out of position".

Jurgen Klinsmann isn't popular with the MLS based US media because he is critical of the status quo and they are the defenders of it.

He's not right about everything but he's more right than Don Garber, Alexi Lalas and Matt Doyle.

MLS academies are all free.

 

[ZooCougar]

MLS academies are all free.

Not true.


D.C. United has the most expensive MLS Academy

And there is still the matter of getting to and from practice. In Europe, all of that stuff is taken care of by the club and they are mostly residency type set ups.

 

[BlueMAB]

Who still says "Afro Americans"????

 

[upstater]

I disagree with whoever said that other countries develop players in unstructured environments. I know for a fact that countries like Italy are highly structured and from a very young age. Germany is hypertechnical. In fact, the mantra at the lower levels is not to play unstructured games but to practice, practice, practice. As many touches as you possibly can. The German team for instance. Those guys went through a system in which they hardly played any games.

The points Zoocougar brings up are good, but I find myself confused. Our inner city house league hosts a lot of immigrant families. So many of them fall off for different reasons. Parents are busy with multiple jobs. No transportation. The cultural differences when it comes to coaching style is sometimes difficult to overcome (i.e. coach expectations). We have very few soccer fields in the city.

Our house league feeds into our travel teams which feed into our premier teams which are affiliated/run by a Boston org funded by Bayern Munich. Of the few hundred immigrant kids (300 of 1500 players) in the house league, only 2 or 3 end up on each travel team. Of those, maybe one goes up to premier. The scholarships are there, but the support is more difficult (more travel for practice because of difficulty finding fields, more time for practice because parents each work 2 or 3 jobs).

In other words, I think this is an American lifestyle/cultural situation. In Europe, parents work 30-35 hours a week, and kids are free to roam their burgs, perhaps on good public transport, so they can take themselves to practice. It doesn't happen here.

 

[spsct]

In other words, I think this is an American lifestyle/cultural situation. In Europe, parents work 30-35 hours a week, and kids are free to roam their burgs, perhaps on good public transport, so they can take themselves to practice. It doesn't happen here.

This is more or less the point in a nutshell; here kids are on their own to extent that would probably get a lot of parents dragged into DYS routinely in the States.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Two years ago I was in St Maartin
We pretty much went to the Beach Dailey
Every morning a group of boys from 10-14
would set aside and area of the beach and play
They would take occasional breaks for a swim ,lunch ,or even spend a little time with their families.
They varied in race and language but somehow managed to play, even choosingpretty even teams.
It reminded me of the way my group played baseball each summer or after school football or basketball,
That's how you get better

 

[ZooCougar]

I disagree with whoever said that other countries develop players in unstructured environments. I know for a fact that countries like Italy are highly structured and from a very young age. Germany is hypertechnical. In fact, the mantra at the lower levels is not to play unstructured games but to practice, practice, practice. As many touches as you possibly can. The German team for instance. Those guys went through a system in which they hardly played any games.

The points Zoocougar brings up are good, but I find myself confused. Our inner city house league hosts a lot of immigrant families. So many of them fall off for different reasons. Parents are busy with multiple jobs. No transportation. The cultural differences when it comes to coaching style is sometimes difficult to overcome (i.e. coach expectations). We have very few soccer fields in the city.

Our house league feeds into our travel teams which feed into our premier teams which are affiliated/run by a Boston org funded by Bayern Munich. Of the few hundred immigrant kids (300 of 1500 players) in the house league, only 2 or 3 end up on each travel team. Of those, maybe one goes up to premier. The scholarships are there, but the support is more difficult (more travel for practice because of difficulty finding fields, more time for practice because parents each work 2 or 3 jobs).

In other words, I think this is an American lifestyle/cultural situation. In Europe, parents work 30-35 hours a week, and kids are free to roam their burgs, perhaps on good public transport, so they can take themselves to practice. It doesn't happen here.

Kids in Europe and elsewhere get selected from unstructured environments to move into more structured setups. So by the time they move up they have much more solid immersive foundation.

Their Academies actually develop talent. There was a really good discussion on SiriusXM the other day. Our clubs and Academies do more recruiting than development. You see lots of kids jumping from club to club.

Academies elsewhere are much more comprehensive and select at a much younger age. Look at Fulham, Southampton, La Masia and Ajax academies. There are loads of articles on those academies.

Is there a cultural impediment? For sure. But even without it, we still have massive amounts of talent being overlooked. And I'm not talking about the inner cities. You guys need to get out of the northeast .... Lol.

 

[Chuck]

Kids in Europe and elsewhere get selected from unstructured environments to move into more structured setups. So by the time they move up they have much more solid immersive foundation.

Their Academies actually develop talent. There was a really good discussion on SiriusXM the other day. Our clubs and Academies do more recruiting than development. You see lots of kids jumping from club to club.

Academies elsewhere are much more comprehensive and select at a much younger age. Look at Fulham, Southampton, La Masia and Ajax academies. There are loads of articles on those academies.

Is there a cultural impediment? For sure. But even without it, we still have massive amounts of talent being overlooked. And I'm not talking about the inner cities. You guys need to get out of the northeast .... Lol.

I don't agree with some of what is being said in the last few posts. (not sure they were even your points). I actually think that US Soccer pushes clubs to unstructured practices with tons of touches. The practices are structured in that they exist, and there is a trainer, but I've watched my kids (and I coached my daughter's team) at practices. They are broken into small groups and they play loose games. They also work into the game that inventiveness is rewarded over pure speed or power. So a kid gets an extra point for a goal off of something with foot skills. Also, they play small sided until U13 (or whatever that will be called now). This results in less kids on the field so more touches and blasting it up the field becomes useless. So I think they are getting a lot of free-play in their structured practice. I was taught similarly in my coaching licenses that I had to take. There is no dribbling around cones going on (they don't guard much better than a chair in basketball).

That being said, I DO agree with your point about the academies. We have a few solid academies near me that I respect. I don't think they are necessary for the second tier of kids (like my kids), but the top kids should be playing with them by a certain age. I've also seen academies pop up that are around just for the money. They charge a fortune, have one elite team, and fill out a few other teams that wouldn't touch my son's town club team. Every year I hear that the elite team from X academy left and went to Y academy and vice versa. So the coaches are just as bad as the academies. One of them just folded by us. A friend paid about $3,000 for the year. His son played in two tournaments and two league games in the fall. But they had really nice uniforms!

Another thing I recently saw puts some real life into the issues you bring up. I saw Odell Beckham Jr. showing off some soccer skill on ESPN. I was impressed and looked up his soccer background. I didn't realize he was an elite soccer player until about 13 or 14. He focused on football because he would've had to move away from his family to continue up the soccer ladder. I'm not sure if that's true for every US youth player (that they'd have to move), but I can see where that would be a check mark against focusing on soccer for a teenager. When you are a freak athlete like OBJ, it's pretty easy to move to another sport that is easier on your life.

 

[meyers7]

I saw Odell Beckham Jr. showing off some soccer skill on ESPN. I was impressed and looked up his soccer background. I didn't realize he was an elite soccer player until about 13 or 14.

Well his name is Beckham.

 

[ZooCougar]

Christian Pulisic is the 'greatest potential American soccer player ever' - 'The Herd'

Choo Choo

But not in the way you might think....

 

[johnhuskies95]

Not true.


D.C. United has the most expensive MLS Academy

And there is still the matter of getting to and from practice. In Europe, all of that stuff is taken care of by the club and they are mostly residency type set ups.

Ok, so that's one club that charges for their academy. Definitely not "by and large" for the whole league.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Private clubs, whether it be soccer, baseball, basketball, football, etc. in the US are designed to do one thing, make money. A few may actually be interested in developing players; but, good luck finding one.

 

[upstater]

Private clubs, whether it be soccer, baseball, basketball, football, etc. in the US are designed to do one thing, make money. A few may actually be interested in developing players; but, good luck finding one.

It depends on if they are for-profit or non-profit. One of my kids is part of a club with 2 full-time employees, minimal pay for coaches and trainers, and a whole slew of volunteers.

 

[ZooCougar]

Ok, so that's one club that charges for their academy. Definitely not "by and large" for the whole league.

Yeah well maybe if you bothered to educate yourself on the issue you'd see that 20 academies in a nation of 340 million is barely a drop in the bucket. And more than just DC United are pay to play.

Private clubs, whether it be soccer, baseball, basketball, football, etc. in the US are designed to do one thing, make money. A few may actually be interested in developing players; but, good luck finding one.

Pay to play is just the symptom according to this article. Pay-to-play is a symptom, not the problem itself | The 91st Minute | Soccer Blog | Videos | Pop-Culture

In order to get lucky enough to get recruited into a Pro Academy in the US, even if it is a scholarship program, you have to navigate a gauntlet of pay to play setups.

The article above suggests that all of these pay to play outfits are operating on "subsistence", however what the article doesn't account for, is exorbitant league and tournament fees.

The better the league and the tournament, the more expensive the fees. It's simply a fact. Most Academies in the US aren't linked to Pro Clubs so the very best programs are in fact the most expensive. So basically, the best players can participate only if they get a scholarship and if their parents have the time and money to commit.

So basically, we don't have a true organic system where the cream always rises to the top. Secondly, there is a huge base of talent that rarely gets looked at in our Hispanic communities. There's also probably some real talent sitting on High School teams with kids who can't get access to these big leagues around our big cities.

Lastly, in other countries, Federations mandate that clubs at all levels get a piece of the sale fee when players are sold professionally. Even if the Academy or Club isn't professional. There is an active lawsuit going on at the moment, because the US Clubs believe that the USSF is not complying with FIFA Regulations on this.

Say what you want about FIFA, but this soccer form of trickle down economics is proven to work around the world. These lower level clubs and academies actually have some incentive to provide scholarships to exceptional talent AND scout the full population.

 

[ZooCougar]

It depends on if they are for-profit or non-profit. One of my kids is part of a club with 2 full-time employees, minimal pay for coaches and trainers, and a whole slew of volunteers.

It's not your club that is pocketing the money, it's probably whoever is pocketing the money for the leagues and the associations. Why should it cost 50 dollars try out for an ODP program? Why does it cost 20 dollars to register an 11 year old to play? Payable only with a debit or a credit card?

If this were voting, people would say this was suppression.

 

[upstater]

It's not your club that is pocketing the money, it's probably whoever is pocketing the money for the leagues and the associations. Why should it cost 50 dollars try out for an ODP program? Why does it cost 20 dollars to register an 11 year old to play? Payable only with a debit or a credit card?

If this were voting, people would say this was suppression.

The Premier teams don't seem to have scholarships. Our club does have scholarships, and it's a pretty diverse club. A quarter of each team is made up of scholarship kids. No complaints from paying parents. Probably because the yearly fee is $1k.

This is a club with all levels, not just premier. Most teams are travel, with about 5 age groups also competing in premier.

I don't disagree with your premise or the original one. Just with the idea that clubs like ours do not exist.

Mind you, my oldest went through years at the club I'm talking about, but when her team was ripped apart by the new USSF age matrix, she moved over to one of the premier teams that you all are criticizing. Only one person of color on the entire team, which is a big change from her older club.

 

[upstater]

Responding to ZooCougar, I would say that we could take more advantage of ethnic and immigrant communities in my area if only we could do something about facilities and transportation.

I sympathize with what you're saying but I don't think it's the organization of soccer that is to blame.

When we try to encourage our best house league kids to move up to more competitive clubs, we find that transportation is difficult because the lack of facilities (i.e. fields) requires transportation. And parents who work multiple jobs can't imagine their young children traversing the city to get to the fields (never mind practices that end at dark).

So, I think our problems have to do with the lack of numbers of soccer players (for basketball in the inner city, competitive teams congregate at local courts or school gyms) which would produce a demand for facilities, then urban sprawl and the fact that parents often work multiple jobs. If we could solve these problems,you'd see clubs like our own inner city club begin to dominate the premier teams, and that would really produce change.