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Calhoun and recruiting

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Quinn Cook and Marshall Plumlee were ranked 37 and 68 and they were McDs All-Americans. It's totally about Duke.

Here are Duke's recent recruits that were McDonald's All Americans and their respective ESPN recruiting rankings (for their senior year):

2011 Ranking
Marshall Plumlee 35
Quin Cook 38
Austin Rivers 3

2010
Kyrie Irving 3

2009
Ryan Kelly 17
Mason Plumlee 10

2008
Elliot Williams 18

2007
Kyle Singler 4
Taylor King 16
Nolan Smith 6

I'd be interested to see their pre-commitment-to-Duke rankings... If you know how to look at that I'd be keen... But as the above shows, these are all top 25 recruits apart from this year (when they took on the latest Plumlee due to his brothers, and Cook). It looks more like Duke gets McDonald's All American, not that committing to Duke makes them McDonald's All Americans...
 

ctchamps

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With us it was a weird local boy thing, wasn't it?
People pointed out that the McD game was being played in Boston and the selection committee tries to select a local kid. So Scottie was given the honor, but many felt it wasn't deserved. He would be an asterisk McD, the same as most Duke McD's.

I'm not sure if he was a weird local boy, however.
 
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Plumlee was about being a Plumlee... Cook went to Oak Hill, that could be why he got a lot of hype... What about every other McD's AA they've had in the last 5 / 10 years... my guess would be the strong majority are top 25 but all ears if I am wrong

You are kind of wrong. Duke does recruit predominantly top 25 guys but them and UNC are the two schools who receive the majority of the WTF? McD guys like Plumlee, Wear Bros., Larry Drew, Eric Boateng, etc. The McD effect is mainly for their 20-40th ranked guys who are borderline invites (like Omar will be next year) but will always receive an invite if they are Dukies.

I don't understand why there would be a Plumlee effect that would cause Marshall to be invited (you may be right that there is, but I doubt it). Was the committee's thought process "Well, both of his brothers were highly regarded and both suck, so this last one who is the least regarded totally deserves it!" (Marshall was ranked 61 via RSCI, ESPN was the outlier)
 
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Here are Duke's recent recruits that were McDonald's All Americans and their respective ESPN recruiting rankings (for their senior year):

2011 Ranking
Marshall Plumlee 35
Quin Cook 38
Austin Rivers 3

2010
Kyrie Irving 3

2009
Ryan Kelly 17
Mason Plumlee 10

2008
Elliot Williams 18

2007
Kyle Singler 4
Taylor King 16
Nolan Smith 6

I'd be interested to see their pre-commitment-to-Duke rankings... If you know how to look at that I'd be keen... But as the above shows, these are all top 25 recruits apart from this year (when they took on the latest Plumlee due to his brothers, and Cook). It looks more like Duke gets McDonald's All American, not that committing to Duke makes them McDonald's All Americans...

ESPN resets them. They have Drummond ranked for instance.

Look at Scouts, it's much better.
 
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You are kind of wrong. Duke does recruit predominantly top 25 guys but them and UNC are the two schools who receive the majority of the WTF? McD guys like Plumlee, Wear Bros., Larry Drew, Eric Boateng, etc. The McD effect is mainly for their 20-40th ranked guys who are borderline invites (like Omar will be next year) but will always receive an invite if they are Dukies.

I don't understand why there would be a Plumlee effect that would cause Marshall to be invited (you may be right that there is, but I doubt it). Was the committee's thought process "Well, both of his brothers were highly regarded and both suck, so this last one who is the least regarded totally deserves it!"

See above
 
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Disagree. Duke doesn't take any kids that aren't in the top 25 (and usually top 10) at the time they are recruiting them. Those kids are almost all still top 25 (and usually still top 10) by the time they are seniors and being looked at for the All Star Games... Sure, being a Duke / Kentucky / Kansas / UNC commit MAY or COULD help one of them get chosen over someone else, but for the most part the kids Duke recruits are going anyway. I just think your argument is seriously flawed.

A better argument would be to say that Coach K recruits the few kids in the top 10 / top 25 that will fit into his program.... which is a program based on team concepts, as well as flopping, shooting 3s, and being white

Not true, Roscoe Smith was sought after duke and was what #39? No way was Brian Zoubek a top 10 recruit
 
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If you want to go back the last ten years and and do the research with the RSCI rankings here and your point still stands, I will be impressed. Im too lazy

Ha, me too

I was at work so it was better than working to do the little I did above... but now I'm outta here
 
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I think its a combination for a great eye for talent, that Calhoun picks player that fit a certain type of mold that he knows will work well with his team concept. And that he is very demanding of his players which in turn means they get the most out of their experience from learning under him.
I think you nailed it LGH. Jeremy Lamb, case in point. JC zeroed in on JL early on and wanted him over other more highly ranked guard/wings such as Doron Lamb. Needless to say, he chose wisely.

Not all the great husky players fit this paradigm but here is my list of ones who fit that: Lamb, Gordon, Marcus Williams and Ray are three that fit this to a T. All were modestly ranked but JC knew he had something special with all of them.

Guys like Donyell, Caron, Rip, Kemba and Rudy are ones that were highly ranked, but JC knew were special and developed into great players. In Rudy's case, his greatness was not realized to he spent a couple years in the NBA. There aren't many highly ranked UConn players who didn't at least live up to their ranking, while some coaches who stock pile burger AAs have had multiple that underachieved.

Guys like Emeka, Hilton, Boone, Boatright, maybe even Napier fit the dumb luck category. These are players that weren't JC's first choices but caught his eye late and turned out to be outstanding players. In some of the cases they had special abilities others didn't recognize but he did. In all of them he coached just about as much of their talent out of them that was possible.

Although these two dynamics (identifying talent and coaching them up) are big factors they aren't the only ones.

As someone pointed out, ranking hundreds of kids is no easy task. Some get ranked higher than they should based on where they commit. Some that don't play a lot of AAU, which is rare nowadays, such as Ben Gordon, were out of sight - out of mind and weren't ranked as high as they should have been. As I noted above, there's the dumb-luck factor. There have been quite a few cases where the recruit JC had to settle for ended up to be a lot better than the one or ones he would have taken if they had not decided to go elsewhere. Emeka is the poster child for that one. I think the names were Fox and Thompson (might have gotten that one wrong) that JC wanted and ended up settling for Emeka. Kemba is another one. There were a slew of guards, Brandon Jennings being one, that JC was after, but he ended up getting the late blooming Kemba Walker. Kemba, even though he rose up the rankings late, was much better than people realized. This was partly due to him playing behind some very good older players, but also because he had a very good work ethic, which I bet JC looks for in a recruit.

The one thing I've noticed through out the years is the contagious work ethic JC instills on his players. We are constantly hearing about the extra work the great players put in to become great. Ben and Ray used to take tons of extra shots. Emeka worked tirelessly on his post skills. Kemba put in loads of extra time. JC doesn't force anyone to do so. Many of his players see his drive to be excellent and respond to it. He makes players accountable by rewarding minutes to those who work hard in practice and apply what they're learning in games. The ones who don't work hard or make the same mistakes over and over again, don't get rewarded. Oriakhi is a good example. Last season and again this season he had a stretch where he was not doing the things that JC expected and he reduced his PT. As he began to do those things, JC rewarded him with more PT. This season, part of the reason for the decreased PT was also simply playing poorly. I'm hoping Alex will recognize this dynamic and work hard on those things that JC knows will help him excel as a player. Some players never get it. There have been some bigs who thought they were better than they were and wanted to play like a wing or in some cases a guard. Remember Antric Klaibor?

The mistake that lesser coaches make is they don't hold their players accountable. They'll play the ones that come in with a reputation or with true talent, but they don't get better because they play no matter if they make the same mistakes over and over again or don't do the extra work to become special.

There is one other thing that JC does that other coaches fail to do. When he identifies greatness in a player, he'll stick with that player giving them solid PT even if there is another player who's contributing more throughout the first half or so of the season. Lamb is a perfect example. JC knew his best shot at winning in March was to develop Jeremy. Some coaches are constantly changing things, playing one guy for a while then giving up on that player and going to the next player. One player JC tried to stick with for a while as his go-to-guy was Rudy Gay. He ended up going away from that and spreading the office to Denham, Shad and others, because he eventually felt Rudy simply wasn't ready to take his game to that next level. The outcome was not what he wanted, but he was right. Rudy just seemed to disappear late in games like he did against GM. If Rudy lived up to the potential that JC saw in him, he could have lead UConn to another NC. In his case, JC saw greatness but was not able to coach it out of him. Fortunately that's usually not the case.
 
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I may come back and edit this post because I am sorta curious about how Duke's recruiting has been recently but here is 2011.

Rivers #2
Gbinje #28
Cook #31
Murphy #49
Plumlee #61
 
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I agree. I was going to use the "coaches up" phrase as well. Recruiting is a crap shoot. Often the #90 player has just as much potential as the #9 player. It's on coaching staffs to bring it out.

It's kind of impossible to prove, but Calhoun just seems the best at getting guys to play above their "rating." How many D1 coaches would have turned Hilton Armstrong into a 1st Round NBA Pick?
Scout keeps online records of their rankings going back to 2002. A quick glance at those records indicates that a much higher percentage of the top 20 ranked guys go on to play in the NBA past their rookie contracts than the next 20. Guys closer to the bottom of the first 100 who go on to play in the NBA aren't too common (there does seem to be a couple in every class). A lot of those guys near the bottom of the top 100 still go to schools with good coaching staffs, so it really comes down to them generally not having as much talent as the top-rated recruits.

I agree, though, that Calhoun has a real knack for seeing basketball talent in players that scouts for these recruiting services overlook. I think the talent of guys like Jeremy Lamb and Emeka Okafor was evident from near the beginning of their UConn careers and they were just great recruiting steals. As far as developing players goes, Hilton, Travis Knight, Jake Voskuhl, Kevin Ollie and Donny Marshall are some of Calhoun's greatest accomplishments.
 
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Ha, me too

I was at work so it was better than working to do the little I did above... but now I'm outta here
I've always wanted to see if someone could come up with some way to measure combined ranking with success to see what coach consistently gets the most out of their players. The ranking part would be somewhat easy. You could use the total RSCI for each team and factor in Ws and Ls, plus add weight to NCAA wins, deeper you go the more points you get.

I'd be shocked if JC didn't end up on top by a landslide. And a coach like Rick Barnes end up way down the list considering how many highly ranked recruits he manages to lose with, especially in March. I think K would not be as high as some would think. Based on the cumulative ranking of his teams he should be cutting down the nets on just about a yearly basis. Early on in his career he experienced a ton of success with moderately ranked talent but since the early 90s the ranking of his players has to be among the highest. Roy is another one. I've always wondered how many NCs would JC have had if he got the talent that some of these coaches get year-in, year-out.

On a loosely related note, this year's team might be JC's most talented one yet. Their youth could play a factor in this since most of their best players are sophs and freshman. Using the RSCI, some of their players are probably under-ranked such as Lamb, Bazz & Boatright. But they do have more highly ranked ones than they usually get with Oriakhi, Drummond and Daniels. Roscoe was also highly ranked and played in at least one of the elite all-star games. JC is getting a lot out of Olander who I don't think was even a top 100 recruit.

You need talent to win, and I think JC has a lot of it and in the end will coach this team up to be one of the best in the nation this year when it's all said and done. F-4 is well within reach and maybe even another NC. I've not been all that impressed with the field this year. UK looks very talented but young. UNC doesn't seem as great as some made them out to be. OSU looks solid but not unbeatable. Just as I wasn't all that impressed with last year's field, feel the same this year and think our Huskies have a good shot at doing it again. That doesn't mean they won't have some bad losses along the way. There's a ton of work to be done, but if there is a coach that can coach greatness out of a team in just a few months, he's my top choice to do it.
 
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I would not say that other players don't improve. Rather, I would say the ranking services and the McD's people overrate the kids going to some of these schools, especially Duke.
Agreed. After they announce, their ratings seem to escalate. It's truly a self-serving prophecy.
 
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These are the RSCI rankings for Uconn players (only includes top 100 guys, notice, you will not even see Hash or Hilton). You can see if they performed equal to, better than or worse than their rankings.

2011
AD (not included bc he was such a late commit but was widely regarded as # 2)
DD 32 (ESPN does not rank 5th year guys, those who ranked him were between 10-29, all but Scout 10-21)
Boat 64

2010
Scoe 28
Bazz 75
Lamb 78

2009
AO 16
Jamal Coombs-McDaniel 50

2008
Kemba 15
Ater 74 (only ranked by two services and was ranked 13 and 28 respectively)
He who must not be named 91 (I think he was so low because no one thought he would qualify, he dropped a ton)

2007
none

2006
Stix 18
Kelly 30
Dyson 36
Wiggins 55

2005
Marcus Johnson 51
Adrien 53

2004
Gay 5
Price 24

2003
Charlie V 18 (again, one non rankings bc he was a 5th year, everyone else ranked him between 3 and 7)
Marcus W 41
Boone 95

2002
Rashad 24
Denham 34

2001
Gordon 41
Okafor 99

2000
Taliek 10
Hazelton 35
Caron was only ranked by two services, and was ranked 8 and 9

99
T Robinson 32
Marcus Cox 45
Wrenn 67

You can see that there are way more guys that over performed their rankings than those who did not live up to them. Its especially impressive that JC sent multiple guys to the league who weren't even top 100 guys.
 
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These are the RSCI rankings for Uconn players (only includes top 100 guys, notice, you will not even see Hash or Hilton). You can see if they performed equal to, better than or worse than their rankings.

2011
AD (not included bc he was such a late commit but was widely regarded as # 2)
DD 32 (ESPN does not rank 5th year guys, those who ranked him were between 10-29, all but Scout 10-21)
Boat 64

2010
Scoe 28
Bazz 75
Lamb 78

2009
AO 16
Jamal Coombs-McDaniel 50

2008
Kemba 15
Ater 74 (only ranked by two services and was ranked 13 and 28 respectively)
He who must not be named 91 (I think he was so low because no one thought he would qualify, he dropped a ton)

2007
none

2006
Stix 18
Kelly 30
Dyson 36
Wiggins 55

2005
Marcus Johnson 51
Adrien 53

2004
Gay 5
Price 24

2003
Charlie V 18 (again, one non rankings bc he was a 5th year, everyone else ranked him between 3 and 7)
Marcus W 41
Boone 95

2002
Rashad 24
Denham 34

2001
Gordon 41
Okafor 99

2000
Taliek 10
Hazelton 35
Caron was only ranked by two services, and was ranked 8 and 9

99
T Robinson 32
Marcus Cox 45
Wrenn 67

You can see that there are way more guys that over performed their rankings than those who did not live up to them. Its especially impressive that JC sent multiple guys to the league who weren't even top 100 guys.

wow Stanley Robinson was 18? Had no idea
 
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I've always wanted to see if someone could come up with some way to measure combined ranking with success to see what coach consistently gets the most out of their players. The ranking part would be somewhat easy. You could use the total RSCI for each team and factor in Ws and Ls, plus add weight to NCAA wins, deeper you go the more points you get.

Send an email to Luke Winn. He's been writing a bunch of objective, data-centric articles recently. I bet he would do it.
 
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Here's a list of McDonald All americans by school since 1990

Since 1990

TeamTotalPercent

North Carolina 41 8.82%
Duke 40 8.60%
Kansas 24 5.16%
Kentucky 21 4.52%
UCLA 16 3.44%
Texas 13 2.80%
Ohio State 13 2.80%
Florida 13 2.80%
Arizona 11 2.37%
Michigan State 11 2.37%
Georgia Tech 11 2.37%
Memphis 10 2.15%
Syracuse 10 2.15%
LSU 10 2.15%
Indiana 10 2.15%
Connecticut 9 1.94%

Connecticut's All-Americans are:

2009 Alex Oriakhi 16 Tilton NH
2008 Kemba Walker 15 New York NY Rice
2004 Rudy Gay 5 Capitol Heights MD Archbishop Spalding
2003 Charlie Villanueva 18 Blairstown NJ Blair Academy
2000 Taliek Brown 10 Astoria NY St. John's
2000 Scott Hazelton 35 Lawrence MA Central Catholic
1997 Khalid El-Amin Minneapolis MN North
1996 Richard Hamilton Coatesville PA Coatesville Area
1991 Donyell Marshall Reading PA Reading
1978 Cornelius Thompson Middletown CT Middletown

awesome graphic. thanks!
 
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The Burger Game is largely political and, imo, irrelevant. If it meant something, it would be the top 25 and not regionally determined. Like this year, DD and AD were both top 10 (rivals) but neither were MDAA, thus skewing the graphic above. My answer to the op's question is that Calhoun recruits athletes that can play his system, regardless of ranking. Sometimes they mesh, other times they don't. Like Kemba, he was very low, like 120, when he signed with UConn. Then he blew up his senior/AAU season. Jerome didn't play a lot/any AAU, and was ranked 140 due to little info. He was obviously undervalued, like Boatright. Analysts aren't ranking based on system fit, Calhoun does.

And a question on the Charlie ranking. If everyone had him 3-7, where did the 18 ranking come from?
 
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I've noticed that most fans of other teams and casual cbb fans think that Calhoun has his pick of the top high schoolers every year just like Kentucky, UNC and Duke do. I try to tell people that this is not the case and they say than how do you always have the top recruits every year? My question to the boneyard is, what makes us have so many good players. Is it that Calhoun is the greatest developer of talent in the country or he has the best eye for underrated talent in the country? It's obvious that Boatright was way undervalued, he could step on the court for any team in the country and be great right away. Lamb clearly has amazing talent but it took him until later in the season to really develop, Shabazz was a contributor right away but has improved drastically, Olander's improvement has also been drastic. It's amazing to me how Calhoun has made a career out of taking guys that aren't considered the top recruits and turning them into great players and in many cases nba players. His success at this is so good that fans of other teams assume he hand picks top 10 recruits every year.
JC, 3 national championships, national TV exposure , NBA success for players, uptempo style, Big East. Those are the 6 biggest reasons . BTW, we have had more failures recruiting "under the the radar" than successes. Duke UNC and more recently Kentucky seem to get the top players every year. We would take the burger players if we could get them but we rarely do.
I can remember a time before JC when nobody ever got any better. If Uconn finished in the middle of the pack in the BE, it was considered a terrific year. The transformation of theUconn program under JC is one of the great stories in college basketball.
 

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he is the maker of men, that's all there is to it

there are hundreds of kids with similar talents, it's about work ethic, discipline and know how. For the kids that come here and buy into his system, they'll leave here with an advantage over their counterparts
 
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The Burger Game is largely political and, imo, irrelevant. If it meant something, it would be the top 25 and not regionally determined. Like this year, DD and AD were both top 10 (rivals) but neither were MDAA, thus skewing the graphic above. My answer to the op's question is that Calhoun recruits athletes that can play his system, regardless of ranking. Sometimes they mesh, other times they don't. Like Kemba, he was very low, like 120, when he signed with UConn. Then he blew up his senior/AAU season. Jerome didn't play a lot/any AAU, and was ranked 140 due to little info. He was obviously undervalued, like Boatright. Analysts aren't ranking based on system fit, Calhoun does.

And a question on the Charlie ranking. If everyone had him 3-7, where did the 18 ranking come from?
AD wasn't in it because at the time it was selected he was listed in the 2012 class.

I'm not sure about DD. I could be wrong, but I thought he was originally in the 2010 class and then spent a year at IMG Academy. Wasn't he supposed to be part of Texas' 2010 class or was it the 2011 but he simply changed his mind and opened up his recruiting? If he did reclassify, even though he was ranked high by some, the class confusion probably impacted his selection. He guessing that he wasn't ranked quite as high when they had him as a 2010 recruit. There's also so rule that if you're considered for the game one year, you can't be up again for selection the next. It's sort of confusing because I had thought they didn't select prep (post grad) kids for the game, but I've seen some play in this game recently and was given this explanation as to why.

With that said, most of the selected players are deserving. There are always a handful of players who's future jersey seemed to play a part and seemed to be a stretch in most people's opinions. And there's often one or two selections from the local area where the game is held, such as with Hazelton and Fingleton (he fits both criteria as he was from greater Boston and was UNC recruit) when the game was held at TD Bank Garden.

Although it seems there are some big reaches for this game every year, the same argument still applies that the ranking system is a crap shoot and that someone who is picking for that game who instead of drawing a line on some top 100 list and taking all the names above it, are instead voting for the players they think are the best. There clearly seems to be some jersey bias though with that game, where certain programs always seem to have a recruit or two in it, while there are a number of players who are a lot more talented but aren't. In the same way, JC doesn't just look at someone's list and assume the players at the top of it are better than the ones that he and his staff have evaluated highly.

IMO, the reason why UConn doesn't have as many highly ranked recruits year after year as a few other elite programs is partly due to the type of player JC is looking for but is also due to the interest level in UConn of the players and their families (guardians). Some simply aren't interested in playing for a tough coach like JC. Some want a different system. Others want a different college/university environment. Some of the elite recruits have influences that are steering them in a different direction. It's not so cut and dry.

With that said, the interest in UConn with some of the top recruits has ebbed and flowed since the 99 NC. AJ Price and Rudy Gay were both highly rated at their positions and chose UConn over some very good programs. Although UConn has had some very highly ranked recruits most of them were spring signees. I might be wrong but I think all of the following signed in the spring: Donyell, Rip, Khalid, Charlie, Hasheem, Daniels and Drummond (note AD is a bit special since he's from CT). I might be wrong about Donyell and possibly one or two of the others. My point is while some programs like UNC, UK and Dook seem to have little trouble stocking up on top 20 talent year-in year-out, UConn doesn't usually get high interest from top 10 to top 20 recruits. When they do, UConn usually don't make the cut when they cut their lists down to 3 to 5, though that has seems to be changing a little bit. The program has been making the top 3 to 5 with more top rated recruits but they still rarely win those battles during the summer. They did swoop in and get Daniels over a few big time programs. Roscoe was pursued by some top programs, though I could never tell how high the interest was with some of them, such as Dook, who seemed to prefer other wings. I think Scoe was just outside the top 20, but still a highly ranked player.

I just looked up Omar Calhoun and figured he was somewhere between 20 and 30, but was surprised to see him ranked as low as 44 in Scout's top 100. We're still in it for the Bennett (#9) sweepstakes, but if we land him, it won't be till the spring. So does UConn not get many top 20 recruits because of who the program is and isn't interested in or vise versa? I think it's a combination of both with a bunch of other factors impacting mixed in.
 
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Another guy from that class of guys froma few years ago that decided to decommit was melvin.. After seeing him play he looked far better then a barely 3 star recruit. Calhoun has an eye for kids..
 
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The Burger Game is largely political and, imo, irrelevant. If it meant something, it would be the top 25 and not regionally determined. Like this year, DD and AD were both top 10 (rivals) but neither were MDAA, thus skewing the graphic above. My answer to the op's question is that Calhoun recruits athletes that can play his system, regardless of ranking. Sometimes they mesh, other times they don't. Like Kemba, he was very low, like 120, when he signed with UConn. Then he blew up his senior/AAU season. Jerome didn't play a lot/any AAU, and was ranked 140 due to little info. He was obviously undervalued, like Boatright. Analysts aren't ranking based on system fit, Calhoun does.

And a question on the Charlie ranking. If everyone had him 3-7, where did the 18 ranking come from?

DD wasn't invited because he was a 5th year player and I think you are underrating how Jerome was perceived. Charlie was #18 because a zero was included in his average.
 
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