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If you want to go back the last ten years and and do the research with the RSCI rankings here and your point still stands, I will be impressed. Im too lazy
Calhoun and recruiting
- Thread starter superjohn
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If you want to go back the last ten years and and do the research with the RSCI rankings here and your point still stands, I will be impressed. Im too lazy
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Not true, Roscoe Smith was sought after duke and was what #39? No way was Brian Zoubek a top 10 recruit
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Ha, me too
I was at work so it was better than working to do the little I did above... but now I'm outta here
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I think you nailed it LGH. Jeremy Lamb, case in point. JC zeroed in on JL early on and wanted him over other more highly ranked guard/wings such as Doron Lamb. Needless to say, he chose wisely.
Not all the great husky players fit this paradigm but here is my list of ones who fit that: Lamb, Gordon, Marcus Williams and Ray are three that fit this to a T. All were modestly ranked but JC knew he had something special with all of them.
Guys like Donyell, Caron, Rip, Kemba and Rudy are ones that were highly ranked, but JC knew were special and developed into great players. In Rudy's case, his greatness was not realized to he spent a couple years in the NBA. There aren't many highly ranked UConn players who didn't at least live up to their ranking, while some coaches who stock pile burger AAs have had multiple that underachieved.
Guys like Emeka, Hilton, Boone, Boatright, maybe even Napier fit the dumb luck category. These are players that weren't JC's first choices but caught his eye late and turned out to be outstanding players. In some of the cases they had special abilities others didn't recognize but he did. In all of them he coached just about as much of their talent out of them that was possible.
Although these two dynamics (identifying talent and coaching them up) are big factors they aren't the only ones.
As someone pointed out, ranking hundreds of kids is no easy task. Some get ranked higher than they should based on where they commit. Some that don't play a lot of AAU, which is rare nowadays, such as Ben Gordon, were out of sight - out of mind and weren't ranked as high as they should have been. As I noted above, there's the dumb-luck factor. There have been quite a few cases where the recruit JC had to settle for ended up to be a lot better than the one or ones he would have taken if they had not decided to go elsewhere. Emeka is the poster child for that one. I think the names were Fox and Thompson (might have gotten that one wrong) that JC wanted and ended up settling for Emeka. Kemba is another one. There were a slew of guards, Brandon Jennings being one, that JC was after, but he ended up getting the late blooming Kemba Walker. Kemba, even though he rose up the rankings late, was much better than people realized. This was partly due to him playing behind some very good older players, but also because he had a very good work ethic, which I bet JC looks for in a recruit.
The one thing I've noticed through out the years is the contagious work ethic JC instills on his players. We are constantly hearing about the extra work the great players put in to become great. Ben and Ray used to take tons of extra shots. Emeka worked tirelessly on his post skills. Kemba put in loads of extra time. JC doesn't force anyone to do so. Many of his players see his drive to be excellent and respond to it. He makes players accountable by rewarding minutes to those who work hard in practice and apply what they're learning in games. The ones who don't work hard or make the same mistakes over and over again, don't get rewarded. Oriakhi is a good example. Last season and again this season he had a stretch where he was not doing the things that JC expected and he reduced his PT. As he began to do those things, JC rewarded him with more PT. This season, part of the reason for the decreased PT was also simply playing poorly. I'm hoping Alex will recognize this dynamic and work hard on those things that JC knows will help him excel as a player. Some players never get it. There have been some bigs who thought they were better than they were and wanted to play like a wing or in some cases a guard. Remember Antric Klaibor?
The mistake that lesser coaches make is they don't hold their players accountable. They'll play the ones that come in with a reputation or with true talent, but they don't get better because they play no matter if they make the same mistakes over and over again or don't do the extra work to become special.
There is one other thing that JC does that other coaches fail to do. When he identifies greatness in a player, he'll stick with that player giving them solid PT even if there is another player who's contributing more throughout the first half or so of the season. Lamb is a perfect example. JC knew his best shot at winning in March was to develop Jeremy. Some coaches are constantly changing things, playing one guy for a while then giving up on that player and going to the next player. One player JC tried to stick with for a while as his go-to-guy was Rudy Gay. He ended up going away from that and spreading the office to Denham, Shad and others, because he eventually felt Rudy simply wasn't ready to take his game to that next level. The outcome was not what he wanted, but he was right. Rudy just seemed to disappear late in games like he did against GM. If Rudy lived up to the potential that JC saw in him, he could have lead UConn to another NC. In his case, JC saw greatness but was not able to coach it out of him. Fortunately that's usually not the case.
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Scout keeps online records of their rankings going back to 2002. A quick glance at those records indicates that a much higher percentage of the top 20 ranked guys go on to play in the NBA past their rookie contracts than the next 20. Guys closer to the bottom of the first 100 who go on to play in the NBA aren't too common (there does seem to be a couple in every class). A lot of those guys near the bottom of the top 100 still go to schools with good coaching staffs, so it really comes down to them generally not having as much talent as the top-rated recruits.
I agree, though, that Calhoun has a real knack for seeing basketball talent in players that scouts for these recruiting services overlook. I think the talent of guys like Jeremy Lamb and Emeka Okafor was evident from near the beginning of their UConn careers and they were just great recruiting steals. As far as developing players goes, Hilton, Travis Knight, Jake Voskuhl, Kevin Ollie and Donny Marshall are some of Calhoun's greatest accomplishments.
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I've always wanted to see if someone could come up with some way to measure combined ranking with success to see what coach consistently gets the most out of their players. The ranking part would be somewhat easy. You could use the total RSCI for each team and factor in Ws and Ls, plus add weight to NCAA wins, deeper you go the more points you get.
I'd be shocked if JC didn't end up on top by a landslide. And a coach like Rick Barnes end up way down the list considering how many highly ranked recruits he manages to lose with, especially in March. I think K would not be as high as some would think. Based on the cumulative ranking of his teams he should be cutting down the nets on just about a yearly basis. Early on in his career he experienced a ton of success with moderately ranked talent but since the early 90s the ranking of his players has to be among the highest. Roy is another one. I've always wondered how many NCs would JC have had if he got the talent that some of these coaches get year-in, year-out.
On a loosely related note, this year's team might be JC's most talented one yet. Their youth could play a factor in this since most of their best players are sophs and freshman. Using the RSCI, some of their players are probably under-ranked such as Lamb, Bazz & Boatright. But they do have more highly ranked ones than they usually get with Oriakhi, Drummond and Daniels. Roscoe was also highly ranked and played in at least one of the elite all-star games. JC is getting a lot out of Olander who I don't think was even a top 100 recruit.
You need talent to win, and I think JC has a lot of it and in the end will coach this team up to be one of the best in the nation this year when it's all said and done. F-4 is well within reach and maybe even another NC. I've not been all that impressed with the field this year. UK looks very talented but young. UNC doesn't seem as great as some made them out to be. OSU looks solid but not unbeatable. Just as I wasn't all that impressed with last year's field, feel the same this year and think our Huskies have a good shot at doing it again. That doesn't mean they won't have some bad losses along the way. There's a ton of work to be done, but if there is a coach that can coach greatness out of a team in just a few months, he's my top choice to do it.
Agreed. After they announce, their ratings seem to escalate. It's truly a self-serving prophecy.
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These are the RSCI rankings for Uconn players (only includes top 100 guys, notice, you will not even see Hash or Hilton). You can see if they performed equal to, better than or worse than their rankings.
2011
AD (not included bc he was such a late commit but was widely regarded as # 2)
DD 32 (ESPN does not rank 5th year guys, those who ranked him were between 10-29, all but Scout 10-21)
Boat 64
2010
Scoe 28
Bazz 75
Lamb 78
2009
AO 16
Jamal Coombs-McDaniel 50
2008
Kemba 15
Ater 74 (only ranked by two services and was ranked 13 and 28 respectively)
He who must not be named 91 (I think he was so low because no one thought he would qualify, he dropped a ton)
2007
none
2006
Stix 18
Kelly 30
Dyson 36
Wiggins 55
2005
Marcus Johnson 51
Adrien 53
2004
Gay 5
Price 24
2003
Charlie V 18 (again, one non rankings bc he was a 5th year, everyone else ranked him between 3 and 7)
Marcus W 41
Boone 95
2002
Rashad 24
Denham 34
2001
Gordon 41
Okafor 99
2000
Taliek 10
Hazelton 35
Caron was only ranked by two services, and was ranked 8 and 9
99
T Robinson 32
Marcus Cox 45
Wrenn 67
You can see that there are way more guys that over performed their rankings than those who did not live up to them. Its especially impressive that JC sent multiple guys to the league who weren't even top 100 guys.
2011
AD (not included bc he was such a late commit but was widely regarded as # 2)
DD 32 (ESPN does not rank 5th year guys, those who ranked him were between 10-29, all but Scout 10-21)
Boat 64
2010
Scoe 28
Bazz 75
Lamb 78
2009
AO 16
Jamal Coombs-McDaniel 50
2008
Kemba 15
Ater 74 (only ranked by two services and was ranked 13 and 28 respectively)
He who must not be named 91 (I think he was so low because no one thought he would qualify, he dropped a ton)
2007
none
2006
Stix 18
Kelly 30
Dyson 36
Wiggins 55
2005
Marcus Johnson 51
Adrien 53
2004
Gay 5
Price 24
2003
Charlie V 18 (again, one non rankings bc he was a 5th year, everyone else ranked him between 3 and 7)
Marcus W 41
Boone 95
2002
Rashad 24
Denham 34
2001
Gordon 41
Okafor 99
2000
Taliek 10
Hazelton 35
Caron was only ranked by two services, and was ranked 8 and 9
99
T Robinson 32
Marcus Cox 45
Wrenn 67
You can see that there are way more guys that over performed their rankings than those who did not live up to them. Its especially impressive that JC sent multiple guys to the league who weren't even top 100 guys.
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wow Stanley Robinson was 18? Had no idea
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I'm assuming you thought he was lower. For some reason I thought he was a top 10 guy.
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I thought he was a top 40 guy but not top 20
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Send an email to Luke Winn. He's been writing a bunch of objective, data-centric articles recently. I bet he would do it.
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awesome graphic. thanks!
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The Burger Game is largely political and, imo, irrelevant. If it meant something, it would be the top 25 and not regionally determined. Like this year, DD and AD were both top 10 (rivals) but neither were MDAA, thus skewing the graphic above. My answer to the op's question is that Calhoun recruits athletes that can play his system, regardless of ranking. Sometimes they mesh, other times they don't. Like Kemba, he was very low, like 120, when he signed with UConn. Then he blew up his senior/AAU season. Jerome didn't play a lot/any AAU, and was ranked 140 due to little info. He was obviously undervalued, like Boatright. Analysts aren't ranking based on system fit, Calhoun does.
And a question on the Charlie ranking. If everyone had him 3-7, where did the 18 ranking come from?
And a question on the Charlie ranking. If everyone had him 3-7, where did the 18 ranking come from?
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JC, 3 national championships, national TV exposure , NBA success for players, uptempo style, Big East. Those are the 6 biggest reasons . BTW, we have had more failures recruiting "under the the radar" than successes. Duke UNC and more recently Kentucky seem to get the top players every year. We would take the burger players if we could get them but we rarely do.
I can remember a time before JC when nobody ever got any better. If Uconn finished in the middle of the pack in the BE, it was considered a terrific year. The transformation of theUconn program under JC is one of the great stories in college basketball.
willie99
Loving life & enjoying the ride, despite the bumps
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he is the maker of men, that's all there is to it
there are hundreds of kids with similar talents, it's about work ethic, discipline and know how. For the kids that come here and buy into his system, they'll leave here with an advantage over their counterparts
there are hundreds of kids with similar talents, it's about work ethic, discipline and know how. For the kids that come here and buy into his system, they'll leave here with an advantage over their counterparts
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AD wasn't in it because at the time it was selected he was listed in the 2012 class.
I'm not sure about DD. I could be wrong, but I thought he was originally in the 2010 class and then spent a year at IMG Academy. Wasn't he supposed to be part of Texas' 2010 class or was it the 2011 but he simply changed his mind and opened up his recruiting? If he did reclassify, even though he was ranked high by some, the class confusion probably impacted his selection. He guessing that he wasn't ranked quite as high when they had him as a 2010 recruit. There's also so rule that if you're considered for the game one year, you can't be up again for selection the next. It's sort of confusing because I had thought they didn't select prep (post grad) kids for the game, but I've seen some play in this game recently and was given this explanation as to why.
With that said, most of the selected players are deserving. There are always a handful of players who's future jersey seemed to play a part and seemed to be a stretch in most people's opinions. And there's often one or two selections from the local area where the game is held, such as with Hazelton and Fingleton (he fits both criteria as he was from greater Boston and was UNC recruit) when the game was held at TD Bank Garden.
Although it seems there are some big reaches for this game every year, the same argument still applies that the ranking system is a crap shoot and that someone who is picking for that game who instead of drawing a line on some top 100 list and taking all the names above it, are instead voting for the players they think are the best. There clearly seems to be some jersey bias though with that game, where certain programs always seem to have a recruit or two in it, while there are a number of players who are a lot more talented but aren't. In the same way, JC doesn't just look at someone's list and assume the players at the top of it are better than the ones that he and his staff have evaluated highly.
IMO, the reason why UConn doesn't have as many highly ranked recruits year after year as a few other elite programs is partly due to the type of player JC is looking for but is also due to the interest level in UConn of the players and their families (guardians). Some simply aren't interested in playing for a tough coach like JC. Some want a different system. Others want a different college/university environment. Some of the elite recruits have influences that are steering them in a different direction. It's not so cut and dry.
With that said, the interest in UConn with some of the top recruits has ebbed and flowed since the 99 NC. AJ Price and Rudy Gay were both highly rated at their positions and chose UConn over some very good programs. Although UConn has had some very highly ranked recruits most of them were spring signees. I might be wrong but I think all of the following signed in the spring: Donyell, Rip, Khalid, Charlie, Hasheem, Daniels and Drummond (note AD is a bit special since he's from CT). I might be wrong about Donyell and possibly one or two of the others. My point is while some programs like UNC, UK and Dook seem to have little trouble stocking up on top 20 talent year-in year-out, UConn doesn't usually get high interest from top 10 to top 20 recruits. When they do, UConn usually don't make the cut when they cut their lists down to 3 to 5, though that has seems to be changing a little bit. The program has been making the top 3 to 5 with more top rated recruits but they still rarely win those battles during the summer. They did swoop in and get Daniels over a few big time programs. Roscoe was pursued by some top programs, though I could never tell how high the interest was with some of them, such as Dook, who seemed to prefer other wings. I think Scoe was just outside the top 20, but still a highly ranked player.
I just looked up Omar Calhoun and figured he was somewhere between 20 and 30, but was surprised to see him ranked as low as 44 in Scout's top 100. We're still in it for the Bennett (#9) sweepstakes, but if we land him, it won't be till the spring. So does UConn not get many top 20 recruits because of who the program is and isn't interested in or vise versa? I think it's a combination of both with a bunch of other factors impacting mixed in.
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DD wasn't invited because he was a 5th year player and I think you are underrating how Jerome was perceived. Charlie was #18 because a zero was included in his average.
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Well that's not exactly true. He was ranked in the 70's by most recruiting analysts. But your general premise is correct.
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You raised an interesting point. As I recall, when coach C came to UConn the men's team had very few black players. His first major success, IMO, was to change the perception of UConn being an unwelcoming environment for black basketball players.
The rest is, as they say, history.
Peace,
John Fryer
he wasn't nationally ranked by espn or scout ...
- http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/100189/jeremy-lamb
- http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=4293719
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Edward Sargent
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Alex Drummond wasn't a McD?
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Donyell was spring. We caught a break that the McDonald's A-A game was in Springfield that year, so he took an extra visit and that might have helped him commit, along with Syracuse's budding issues with the NCAA. Rip was a fall signing, though - he was actually just about the last one selected for the McD's game - just snuck in there (he was rated #36 in the fall and then jumped to #20 in the spring), but I think we got Freeman in the spring. Rip actually looked like a fish out of water in the McD's game - skinny as hell, missed a breakaway dunk, maybe made one shot the whole game - and then he shot 2-12 in his debut against Indiana. I remember thinking he wouldn't amount to much - so goes to show what my opinion is worth. Emeka was also a spring signing, along with Chad Wise.
who?
alex oriakhi ?? Andre Drummond ?? you got mixed up
Oriakhi was a McD AA
Drummond wasn't he was stated as a 2012 player, if he would of stayed in his original class (2011) pretty sure he would of been an all american
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Huh? Really?
I admit to starting to follow UConn during its BE days, but UConn outside the Georgetown teams was the most black team in the conference. While others had Dan Calandrillo and John Pinone and Chris Mullin and Seikaly and Santifer and Donovan as the face of their teams, UConn was trotting out Tim Coles, McKay, Corny, Stormin' Norman, Giscombe, Hobbs and Kelley with a white Aleksinas thrown in. This was the early 80s. Before Calhoun got there, Cliff Robinson and Phil Gamble were leading the team.
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On the Scout.com 2010 Rankings he was ranked #88. You're right, amazingly he wasn't ranked by ESPN. On the RSCI Composite Rankings he was ranked #78 overall - Rob Harrington of Prepstars had him at 73, Hoopmasters at 77, Scout at 88, Brick Oettinger of Prepstars at 58, Rivals.com at 76 and Scouts Inc. (ESPN) didn't have him in the top 100. I think they all missed badly on this one!
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